Has your UK CAA I/R lapsed by more than 7/6/3 years?
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wet vee two
F9.2
TRANSFER OF CO-PILOT ONLY
MULTI-PILOT TYPE RATINGS TO
PILOT-IN-COMMAND RATINGS
It is UK policy that all new multi-pilot type ratings included
in a UK issued licence will be unrestricted Pilot-in-
Command ratings. This is based on the fact that all pilots
are trained and tested in the role of Pilot-in-Command.
Therefore, applicants wishing to transfer their Co-Pilot
rating to a UK issued licence will be required to meet the
following requirements:-
Case 1: Transfer of co-pilot rating from non-JAR-FCL
licence
The applicant must:
1. Produce evidence of having a valid co-pilot rating
within non-JAR-FCL licence.
2. Meet the requirements of JAR-FCL 1.250/2.250,
including theoretical knowledge requirements.
3. Complete the type rating training at the discretion of
the Head of Training at a JAA Approved TRTO.
4. Pass the course based theoretical knowledge
examination.
5. Pass the skill test.
I was in Gatwick in Feb for 2 days to get my 320 onto my JAA. First day was class and then a tech paper, second day was a 3 hour sim LST. Then a visit to CAA to get it on my JAA unrestricted
If you are a First Officer and you have a P2 license here in the desert, the UK CAA will not recognise it and its not worth the paper it is written on.
Lost of guys from here are going back to the UK to get the ratings onto their JAA and in doing so are getting a good rating onto their JAA plus keeping their UK JAA current for a few more years.
If you're a Captain, then you will have a P1 License here in the middle east and a sim ride LST is all you need. Some of our Captains are popping back to the UK to also get their ratings onto their JAA just in case they need it.
F9.2
TRANSFER OF CO-PILOT ONLY
MULTI-PILOT TYPE RATINGS TO
PILOT-IN-COMMAND RATINGS
It is UK policy that all new multi-pilot type ratings included
in a UK issued licence will be unrestricted Pilot-in-
Command ratings. This is based on the fact that all pilots
are trained and tested in the role of Pilot-in-Command.
Therefore, applicants wishing to transfer their Co-Pilot
rating to a UK issued licence will be required to meet the
following requirements:-
Case 1: Transfer of co-pilot rating from non-JAR-FCL
licence
The applicant must:
1. Produce evidence of having a valid co-pilot rating
within non-JAR-FCL licence.
2. Meet the requirements of JAR-FCL 1.250/2.250,
including theoretical knowledge requirements.
3. Complete the type rating training at the discretion of
the Head of Training at a JAA Approved TRTO.
4. Pass the course based theoretical knowledge
examination.
5. Pass the skill test.
I was in Gatwick in Feb for 2 days to get my 320 onto my JAA. First day was class and then a tech paper, second day was a 3 hour sim LST. Then a visit to CAA to get it on my JAA unrestricted
If you are a First Officer and you have a P2 license here in the desert, the UK CAA will not recognise it and its not worth the paper it is written on.
Lost of guys from here are going back to the UK to get the ratings onto their JAA and in doing so are getting a good rating onto their JAA plus keeping their UK JAA current for a few more years.
If you're a Captain, then you will have a P1 License here in the middle east and a sim ride LST is all you need. Some of our Captains are popping back to the UK to also get their ratings onto their JAA just in case they need it.
Last edited by Black Pudding; 27th May 2012 at 21:35.
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wet vee two
You read my post from FL610 ? Sorry I am not with you on this
Reference tantrum. Sorry, you misunderstood me. I copied and pasted from Lasors and it was soo small I made the font larger and made the part I am referring to in bold so you understood the part I am referring to ie 3. Complete the type rating training at the discretion of the Head of Training at a JAA Approved TRTO.
Reference your comment What utter bol@x. If your referring to the stance from the UK CAA, I agree. If you're referring to my comment, well that's your opinion. I am talking from experience. Myself and many here in Qatar spent the best part of a year sending and receiving e-mails from the CAA to find out how we can put the ratings we gained here in the middle east onto our UK JAA licenses and to cut a long story short, If you are a First Officer and you have a P2 license here in the desert, the UK CAA will not recognise it and its not worth the paper it is written on is about the sum of it.
Myself and at least 50 pilots, most being First Officers based here in Qatar have made the trip back to the UK to do as I have mentioned earlier.
The information I am giving is the information given to us direct from the CAA at Gatwick. E-mail them and ask and let me know how you get on
[email protected]
You read my post from FL610 ? Sorry I am not with you on this
Reference tantrum. Sorry, you misunderstood me. I copied and pasted from Lasors and it was soo small I made the font larger and made the part I am referring to in bold so you understood the part I am referring to ie 3. Complete the type rating training at the discretion of the Head of Training at a JAA Approved TRTO.
Reference your comment What utter bol@x. If your referring to the stance from the UK CAA, I agree. If you're referring to my comment, well that's your opinion. I am talking from experience. Myself and many here in Qatar spent the best part of a year sending and receiving e-mails from the CAA to find out how we can put the ratings we gained here in the middle east onto our UK JAA licenses and to cut a long story short, If you are a First Officer and you have a P2 license here in the desert, the UK CAA will not recognise it and its not worth the paper it is written on is about the sum of it.
Myself and at least 50 pilots, most being First Officers based here in Qatar have made the trip back to the UK to do as I have mentioned earlier.
The information I am giving is the information given to us direct from the CAA at Gatwick. E-mail them and ask and let me know how you get on
[email protected]
Last edited by Black Pudding; 28th May 2012 at 23:08.
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To all concerned;
Please have a look at a thread started on the 'Fragrant Harbour' forum regarding some potential moves being considered by some pilots in the ME. UK CAA IR fiasco
The petition should be online in the next day or two, and I ask for your support with this case. Even if you intend to see out your career abroad, remember which part of the planet we work in; One bad day and you may be made to leave not of your own accord....
Once the full EASA regs come into place all european pilots, not just the UK pilots will be similarly affected.
FM
Please have a look at a thread started on the 'Fragrant Harbour' forum regarding some potential moves being considered by some pilots in the ME. UK CAA IR fiasco
The petition should be online in the next day or two, and I ask for your support with this case. Even if you intend to see out your career abroad, remember which part of the planet we work in; One bad day and you may be made to leave not of your own accord....
Once the full EASA regs come into place all european pilots, not just the UK pilots will be similarly affected.
FM
Hi guys, greetings from the Fragrant Harbour. I've just seen this thread and have seen that the campaign the Hong Kong pilots unions started has been mentioned here. We were collecting names for a class action, but it has been dropped. It was quickly apparent that it was going to be too big an issue for the HK Aircrew Officer's Association to deal with, so we teamed up with BALPA and with backing from IFALPA to challenge the CAA's rulings.
The feasibility of some sort of action was looked at - as the rule was clearly nonesence. It came from JAR FCL 1-185 which stipulated that 7 years was the longest you could not hold an IR for without having to renew it with exams and a further test. This came in in 2005, but the the UK CAA failed to act on it until last year when they finally got round to publishing LASORS 2010 - a year late. The result was that if your IR had lapsed more than 7 years - tough luck!
BALPA took legal advice which gave the opinion that as JAR FCL was the guidance document, but produced by a body which no longer existed, the CAA had the power to interpret it as they saw fit. The only way to challenge their decision was through a judicial review which would be very lengthy, prohibitively expensive and would have less than an even chance of success. And by the time it came to court, EASA FCLs would be in place and either the problem would have gone away or a new set of more draconian regulations would have to be challenged. So the plan for some sort of action was dropped.
So this is the situation as we in HK have interpreted it. EASA FCL has been published (for UK pilots in CAP804 CAP 804: Flight Crew Licensing: Mandatory Requirements, Policy and Guidance | Publications | About the CAA ) and there is little change. The seven years rule translates across to EASA FCL and is stipulated as such in the new document. It refers to "the rating" and not "a rating" therefore we must assume it means a JAR IR. So it appears that if you have an old UK licence with an IR expired by 7 years, you're still stuffed. If your UK licence has a LPC/IR within 7 years, you have until 8 Apr 2014 to convert it to an EASA licence. To convert either, you will need an MPL type with an IR.
For those who hold UK issued JAR licences, they are automaticly considered to be EASA licences until expiry, when on renewal you will be issued with the new style document. The EASA licence doesn't expire but is only valid so long as a type rating, IR and medical are current. This means a type rating will have to be done every year.
However, EASA FCL has the provision to add foreign ratings to your licence. Quote: Section 4 Part Q Subpart 1
(4) Aeroplane or helicopter type ratings may be issued to holders of Part-FCL licences that comply with the requirements for the issue of those ratings established by a third country. Such ratings will be restricted to aircraft registered in that third country. This restriction may be removed when the pilot complies with the requirements in paragraph C.1 of Annex III to Part-FCL.
These will be annotated "for (insert country) registered aircraft only". The CAA have been written to asking them how they plan to implement this. No reply has yet, but as the CAA has no power to interpret EASA FCL, they will have to go back to putting foreign ratings on licences as they used to. This means we will be able to keep our JAR/EASA licences current while flying in Hong Kong. It was also enquired if this applied to national licences - if they are still valid.
Of course, most JAR member states did still allow foreign ratings to be added and this allowed their pilots to retain their licences - which is where the CAA stance became so unfair. However, as all EASA licences are the same and a European pilot has the right to chose which authority he is registered with (the crieria is where the medicals records are kept) I can see a lot of British pilots working overseas changing their licencing authorities if the CAA continue with their position. I am about to write to the Irish AA to find out how they will interpret the regs. A lot of us in HK will change authorities if we find a better one - when considering the CAA, this won't be difficult.
EASA FCL came into being on the 8th of April this year. EASA licences were supposed to be issued from 1st of July, but inevitably, this has slipped to the14th of September.
I must apologise for the lack of communication for those who contacted us on the aforementioned g-mail address. As the challenge was stillborn, the correspondance wasn't kept up.
The feasibility of some sort of action was looked at - as the rule was clearly nonesence. It came from JAR FCL 1-185 which stipulated that 7 years was the longest you could not hold an IR for without having to renew it with exams and a further test. This came in in 2005, but the the UK CAA failed to act on it until last year when they finally got round to publishing LASORS 2010 - a year late. The result was that if your IR had lapsed more than 7 years - tough luck!
BALPA took legal advice which gave the opinion that as JAR FCL was the guidance document, but produced by a body which no longer existed, the CAA had the power to interpret it as they saw fit. The only way to challenge their decision was through a judicial review which would be very lengthy, prohibitively expensive and would have less than an even chance of success. And by the time it came to court, EASA FCLs would be in place and either the problem would have gone away or a new set of more draconian regulations would have to be challenged. So the plan for some sort of action was dropped.
So this is the situation as we in HK have interpreted it. EASA FCL has been published (for UK pilots in CAP804 CAP 804: Flight Crew Licensing: Mandatory Requirements, Policy and Guidance | Publications | About the CAA ) and there is little change. The seven years rule translates across to EASA FCL and is stipulated as such in the new document. It refers to "the rating" and not "a rating" therefore we must assume it means a JAR IR. So it appears that if you have an old UK licence with an IR expired by 7 years, you're still stuffed. If your UK licence has a LPC/IR within 7 years, you have until 8 Apr 2014 to convert it to an EASA licence. To convert either, you will need an MPL type with an IR.
For those who hold UK issued JAR licences, they are automaticly considered to be EASA licences until expiry, when on renewal you will be issued with the new style document. The EASA licence doesn't expire but is only valid so long as a type rating, IR and medical are current. This means a type rating will have to be done every year.
However, EASA FCL has the provision to add foreign ratings to your licence. Quote: Section 4 Part Q Subpart 1
(4) Aeroplane or helicopter type ratings may be issued to holders of Part-FCL licences that comply with the requirements for the issue of those ratings established by a third country. Such ratings will be restricted to aircraft registered in that third country. This restriction may be removed when the pilot complies with the requirements in paragraph C.1 of Annex III to Part-FCL.
These will be annotated "for (insert country) registered aircraft only". The CAA have been written to asking them how they plan to implement this. No reply has yet, but as the CAA has no power to interpret EASA FCL, they will have to go back to putting foreign ratings on licences as they used to. This means we will be able to keep our JAR/EASA licences current while flying in Hong Kong. It was also enquired if this applied to national licences - if they are still valid.
Of course, most JAR member states did still allow foreign ratings to be added and this allowed their pilots to retain their licences - which is where the CAA stance became so unfair. However, as all EASA licences are the same and a European pilot has the right to chose which authority he is registered with (the crieria is where the medicals records are kept) I can see a lot of British pilots working overseas changing their licencing authorities if the CAA continue with their position. I am about to write to the Irish AA to find out how they will interpret the regs. A lot of us in HK will change authorities if we find a better one - when considering the CAA, this won't be difficult.
EASA FCL came into being on the 8th of April this year. EASA licences were supposed to be issued from 1st of July, but inevitably, this has slipped to the14th of September.
I must apologise for the lack of communication for those who contacted us on the aforementioned g-mail address. As the challenge was stillborn, the correspondance wasn't kept up.
Last edited by Dan Winterland; 2nd Jun 2012 at 17:19.
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Chaps,
All the information Dan has provided is correct and valid.
I have just seen some e-mails from EASA and they are obviously aware of the situation. They are considering a review of the situation through one of their committees, but we can't make any assumptions in this regard
What we are proposing is to challenge the legitamacy of the implementation, not the actual rules themselves. Sby for more info as it appears...
All the information Dan has provided is correct and valid.
I have just seen some e-mails from EASA and they are obviously aware of the situation. They are considering a review of the situation through one of their committees, but we can't make any assumptions in this regard
What we are proposing is to challenge the legitamacy of the implementation, not the actual rules themselves. Sby for more info as it appears...
Last edited by Fart Master; 2nd Jun 2012 at 18:04.
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Maybe we should try an online petition, if we get enough signatures it could influence things
Change.org
Change.org
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Ruserious,
That's the site I'm going to use, hopefully I'll have it up and running later today, we are also looking at the UK Governments epetition site as well...
That's the site I'm going to use, hopefully I'll have it up and running later today, we are also looking at the UK Governments epetition site as well...
Last edited by Fart Master; 3rd Jun 2012 at 07:39.
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Greetings,
I've created an online petition at Change.org - Start, Join, and Win Campaigns for Change but for some reason cannot find it if I try to search for it as if I am a member of the public. I've e-mailed the website for information regarding this.
On the offchance you manage to find it, it is titled;
UK Civil Aviation Authority: Temp approval for affected pilots to renew their IR without resiting exams
Pass the word, let's not roll over on this and I'll let you know about accessability issues as I get answers, but try to find it if you can in the meantime.
I've created an online petition at Change.org - Start, Join, and Win Campaigns for Change but for some reason cannot find it if I try to search for it as if I am a member of the public. I've e-mailed the website for information regarding this.
On the offchance you manage to find it, it is titled;
UK Civil Aviation Authority: Temp approval for affected pilots to renew their IR without resiting exams
Pass the word, let's not roll over on this and I'll let you know about accessability issues as I get answers, but try to find it if you can in the meantime.
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Petition: UK Civil Aviation Authority: Temp approval for affected pilots to renew their IR without resiting exams | Change.org
Everybody, I think this link will take you straight to the petition. If not let me know.
I am planning to hopefully meet an aviation lawyer in Dubai next week to discuss matters next week.
Spread the word, I'll post the link on all the other forums over the next day or two.
Everybody, I think this link will take you straight to the petition. If not let me know.
I am planning to hopefully meet an aviation lawyer in Dubai next week to discuss matters next week.
Spread the word, I'll post the link on all the other forums over the next day or two.
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Dan with regards your quote:
The EASA licence doesn't expire but is only valid so long as a type rating, IR and medical are current. This means a type rating will have to be done every year.
Why would you have to do a type rating every year ? As the licence and its ratings are now on for life surely all you need to do is a medical and an LPC when the time comes to once again use your EASA licence. There doesnt appear to be any mention of an LPC at least once in 5 years anymore either.
(for info, I have just added my B777/787 rating to the JAR/EASA licence so surely only the 7 year rule is the concern to keep hold of the licence while operating in the middle east)
The EASA licence doesn't expire but is only valid so long as a type rating, IR and medical are current. This means a type rating will have to be done every year.
Why would you have to do a type rating every year ? As the licence and its ratings are now on for life surely all you need to do is a medical and an LPC when the time comes to once again use your EASA licence. There doesnt appear to be any mention of an LPC at least once in 5 years anymore either.
(for info, I have just added my B777/787 rating to the JAR/EASA licence so surely only the 7 year rule is the concern to keep hold of the licence while operating in the middle east)
Last edited by 8che; 4th Jun 2012 at 15:02.
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Young man! That made me smile, I'm only thirty thirteen, so you may have a point...
Latest is that myself and another EK Capt are plodding away. He has sent a letter explaining our situation to his MP, who has acknowledged said letter and has said that he will forward it to the Minister of Transport. It's a long shot but it's just one of a few 'leverage' points we are formulating. I am in the process of drafting a letter fully explaining our position to the Chief Exec of the CAA as we have received a reply from him (Andrew Haines) to a previous letter we sent. I will copy in the BALPA lady who has previously been involved, plus one of the EASA rule makers.
We can only hope..
Please keep spreading the word, the more people we get the better our case.
Latest is that myself and another EK Capt are plodding away. He has sent a letter explaining our situation to his MP, who has acknowledged said letter and has said that he will forward it to the Minister of Transport. It's a long shot but it's just one of a few 'leverage' points we are formulating. I am in the process of drafting a letter fully explaining our position to the Chief Exec of the CAA as we have received a reply from him (Andrew Haines) to a previous letter we sent. I will copy in the BALPA lady who has previously been involved, plus one of the EASA rule makers.
We can only hope..
Please keep spreading the word, the more people we get the better our case.
Last edited by Fart Master; 4th Jun 2012 at 16:05.
8che wrote: "Why would you have to do a type rating every year ? As the licence and its ratings are now on for life surely all you need to do is a medical and an LPC when the time comes to once again use your EASA licence. There doesnt appear to be any mention of an LPC at least once in 5 years anymore either."
No idea. I didn't write them, but this is what they say:
FCL.740 Validity and renewal of class and type ratings
(a) The period of validity of class and type ratings shall be 1 year, except for single pilot single-engine class ratings, for which the period of validity shall be 2 years, unless otherwise determined by the operational suitability data, established in accordance with Part-21.
(b) Renewal. If a class or type rating has expired, the applicant shall:
(1) take refresher training at an ATO, when necessary to reach the level of proficiency necessary to safely operate the relevant class or type of aeroplane; and
(2) pass a proficiency check in accordance with Appendix 9 to Part-FCL
However, you will be able to keep your licence current by including a foreign rating, even though it will be annotated that it's valid only for aircraft registered in the relevant country.
No idea. I didn't write them, but this is what they say:
FCL.740 Validity and renewal of class and type ratings
(a) The period of validity of class and type ratings shall be 1 year, except for single pilot single-engine class ratings, for which the period of validity shall be 2 years, unless otherwise determined by the operational suitability data, established in accordance with Part-21.
(b) Renewal. If a class or type rating has expired, the applicant shall:
(1) take refresher training at an ATO, when necessary to reach the level of proficiency necessary to safely operate the relevant class or type of aeroplane; and
(2) pass a proficiency check in accordance with Appendix 9 to Part-FCL
However, you will be able to keep your licence current by including a foreign rating, even though it will be annotated that it's valid only for aircraft registered in the relevant country.
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However, you will be able to keep your licence current by including a foreign rating, even though it will be annotated that it's valid only for aircraft registered in the relevant country.
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Dan,
That does not suggest the need to do an EASA LPC etc every year. If you have the rating on the EASA licence and you are currently flying that aircraft for a foreign carrier, then according to what you have just posted it clearly states that an LPC only (+ medical of course) is required to keep it valid. Yes training "when Necessary" but then that wouldnt be necessary if your currently flying it.
The only requirement to add a foreign type would be to try and avoid this bonkers 7 year rule. It would be rather odd to add a foreign rating to your EASA licence which already has that rating on it.
That does not suggest the need to do an EASA LPC etc every year. If you have the rating on the EASA licence and you are currently flying that aircraft for a foreign carrier, then according to what you have just posted it clearly states that an LPC only (+ medical of course) is required to keep it valid. Yes training "when Necessary" but then that wouldnt be necessary if your currently flying it.
The only requirement to add a foreign type would be to try and avoid this bonkers 7 year rule. It would be rather odd to add a foreign rating to your EASA licence which already has that rating on it.
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I've not read the Part-FCL comprehensively, but I think what you need to do to avoid having to be assessed if your rating lapses bt more than 3 months etc. is to submit your foreign rating LPC paperwork every year. The new licence is merely a piece of paper to show which types you are current on, hence it is valid for life. The whole system revolves around type ratings.
Confused...?
Confused...?