trent1974

Been hearing mixed reports on the rosters at EK.

My interest is in Layovers and turnarounds on both the 777 and Airbus side.

How many days can you expect to be away from home if you bid only for turnarounds every time? Are there many 5 or 6 day pairings?

Thanks for any constructive comments and information.

B. Bonga

..........what animal is a "bid" habibi ?

No such "animal" exists in EK ........used exist, but now is extinct ! Was killed by a hunter called CRS......

trent1974

This is why I said "constructive comments".

NEXT!

EK Snorkel

..........what animal is a "bid" habibi ?

No such "animal" exists in EK ........used exist, but now is extinct ! Was killed by a hunter called CRS......

McGreaser

Expecting a constructive answer on the subject of bidding in EK and let alone from EK Ppruners is asking for a Lazarus-like miracle. You honestly cannot plan your life based on the bidding system whether on boeing or on the bus. You just have to make the best of what you get. Make a few swops if you can otherwise on the few occassions you will get what you want, it will be punctuated with what you don't want.

I think would be a fair assessment of the bidding system in EK

Contacted

The Roster Bidding system (CRS) has 5 groups. Each class of pilot (e.g. 777 Captains, 330/340 FOs, etc) is in one group. The groups rotate from Bottom Bid to Top bid every 5 months.
When you are in a Top bid month, your bidding success will be much greater. In Bottom Bid your roster may bear little resemblance to what you bid for.
To answer your specific questions;
Layovers:
Most layovers in Emirates are 24 hours. So a typical out and return trip covers 3 working days, e.g. DXB-FRA-DXB. The longest ULR trips have 48 hour layovers. There are a few more complicated layover trips, e.g DXB-BKK-SYD-CHC-SYD-BKK-DXB. This example is 9 working days. This is the longest, away from home, trip (777). There are a few other trips of 5,6 days. But the vast majority of layover trips are DXB-24hourslayover-DXB. With careful bidding you can avoid the longer trips, simply because there are so few of them.
Turnarounds:
On the 777 perhaps 25% of trips are turnarounds. This may be nearer 50% on the A330/340. (This is an estimate)
Turnarounds are generally not popular. However, on the 777 there is a sufficient minority of guys who bid for turnarounds, for the rest of us to avoid turnarounds most of the time. This is not the case on the 330.
If you bid for turnarounds, then you should be able to avoid layovers most of the time. I don't know why anyone would do this, your roster would be crap!
If you want maximum days off (as opposed to maximum time at home), then it is best to do as many high hours trips as possible, i.e. ULRs.
ULRs on the 777 are not the most popular trips, so your bidding can be successful, especially in higher bid months.
The Management periodically interfere with the bidding system This has irritated the pilots to the extreme, in the last 18 months. Hence the previous replies.

Kamelchaser

Here's an example of what you can expect Trent (777 roster this month).

15 days leave.
Rostered flight up to 3 hours before leave starts.
75 hours flying in the remaining 15 days (equates to 150hrs for a full month!!!!!
Flying from west coast of US through to Far East within days...a 16 hour time zone change...and then East Coast Australia..another couple of hours time difference.
A grand total of three days off in the remaining 15 days of work ("oh...you've had plenty of days off on leave..why would we give you any more days off during your 88hrs of duty in 15 days, spanning 18 time zones and 7 night sectors..after all you're only working 8 hours more than our office workers over that 2 week period..what are you complaining about?")

Note; hint of scarcasm in the last paragraph in case you missed it

So Trent, hope you enjoy your time here if you decide to come.

CAVnotOK

You MUST be punished for taking leave!

Cav.

gotoindia

I'm rostered for 100 hours in April, that doesn't leave much time or strength for family matters. Enough is enough, I've already resigned.

What you outsiders don't seem to understand, it's not just the block hour total, it's the mix of day and night flying and crossing 16 time zones in a month. Very unhealthy, impossible to be a husband/father while exhausted on days off.

kennedy

Just under 90 hrs in 21 days and still on reserve!

Dog tired, and unsustainable!

Forgotten what my wife looks like!

Mr Angry from Purley

KAMEL
That sounds like not enough crew (big time) in simplistic terms.

R. Cramden

So there is a bright side to this.

LR 3

Hi Trent

The rostering system wasnt too bad up until a year or so ago.
Unless you screwed your bidding or didnt understand how it worked you got a fairly decent roster.
Particularly in your top 3 bid months.
Remember one mans great month is another mans nightmare.
Who wants to do a nine day SYD unless you are from there or at least an aussie.
Likewise no doubt the brazilian lads like Sao Paulo but others dont.
Therefore as everyones tastes are different everyone was fairly well catered for.
A smart management should be thinking who cares who goes to a destination as long as the flight gets crewed.
If the majority of the pilots are happy with their rosters thats a bonus.
Why would you go out of your way to piss off your employees?

Then along came AAR who detests pilots and thinks we need to be taught a lesson.
Now there are so many restrictions in place that the whole system has broken down.
We have people going to the opposite side of the world they bid for all month and strangely twice a month you get the same trip you never bid for.
Get someone to show you the swap group we use if you are able.
As soon as the rosters are out I get upwards of 200 emails requesting swaps and it continues all month.
You will get manually inserted day trips right in middle of what would have been a lot of days off in a row.
Rest assured the computer doesnt do that.
The pr**ks in EK management do.
You will be made to work up until 1130pm the day before your leave starts and be back on at 0230 the day after.
It would be just bad luck if it happened to just a couple of guys but it happens to almost everyone starting leave.
The glass is half full at EK guys will not tell you this stuff I'm afraid.
This is not made up by me because of some gripe towards EK.
I'm just telling you the truth as it stands now.
There are some good parts to a life as an EK pilot, alas rostering is not one of them anymore.
Good luck with your decision.
LR 3

fatbus

the computer does do the insertion but CRS is manipulated to do it the way the company's wants so they can stand back and say it was not manual, you will find more top bid rosters effected by this, about 2 years ago there was a small group of pilots( strong union back ground as well as experience with bidding) were working the system to their advantage ( read O/T ), AAR found out and the rest is what we have now, Thanks boys

mensaboy

So Fatbus, you are blaming a few pilots who years ago 'allegedly' worked the bidding system to their advantage. Even if your assertion, which is straight out of the company propaganda manual, was true, so what? They didn't disadvantage their colleagues in any way, so how about focusing your venom on the real problem.

The true reason for the disgusting, often illegal and de-humanizing rostering practices at Emirates Airline is AAR. He is the sole reason that rostering is such a nightmare for pilots at EK. THANKS BOY!!!

By the way, what exactly do you mean the computer ''does do the manual insertions''? One of the most bizarre assertions I have ever read here on PPRuNe. (other than the recent 'company' inserted posts)

trimotor

LR 3 - check facts and FOM before speaking 'truth': you can't be on duty at 0230 immediately following leave.

FOM gives you a day off and I've never heard of it not happening- if it does, get on the phone.

harry the cod

Trimotor

You beat me to it! Not only a day off after leave, but you'd then need a rest day before your 0230 report.

Perhaps if some people were more realistic and didn't try for 6 days off before leave, they might not get that DOH the day before leave starts. I've always just gone for 2 and have never not got them.

Harry

ima birdbrain

Hey Harry good for you but I have been screwed more times than not on the leave. Majority of times I finish duty close to Midnight or arrive home after midnight when your leave has all ready commenced...
The other rostering practice which has snuck in has been rostering 7 days in a row.Legal but not nice.
This year has been the worst rostering I have experienced in 10 plus years with EK and don't see it getting any better.No news flash but we all get screwed these days and I feel knackered most times before I even jump back into the saddle.

LR 3

Tri motor,

It happened to me.
They tried to put one over me after leave but yes it was illegal.
I think the point I was trying to make for Trent was a couple of years ago it wasnt too bad but has gone to the dogs so to speak.
And as for the FOM.
They give themselves extensions on variations on discretions which we all would not be allowed in a real country with a real regulation body.
JFK 201 is yet another example.

Sheet House Rat

Seniority, bid group, bidding strategies.... just an illusion to make you feel like you've got a choice in the matter.

Rostering system is rife with manipulations (pre-assignments for training; management pilot cherry picking trips etc..) and constraints which prevent the software package from working as intended.

Best advice, don't expect the bidding system to always work the way you'd like it to work. Sometimes it's fantastic what can come out of the system, others.. just plain tragic, painful and fatiguing..

On the bright side, each roster delivery day is like a surprise party.... you can keep discovering each and every month you are here..

SHR