Saudia
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The same way they say no to the "government employee" bonus mentioned by Mutt. If you "don't protest you won't get". I believe some sort of official complaint will be needed.
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If they mess around too much with our pay then they'll be in trouble in the next couple of years. Iran have already ordered 117 airbuses and are about to make a similar order from Boeing. All to be delivered by 2023. They don't have any glass cockpit Pilots of their own. Iran Air will be bigger than Saudia.
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Metro301, I don't think what's being said recently on the forum is "hysterical talk"-it is better described as realistic.
The KSA government definitely has financial problems now and going forward. If the expat pilot group just "sits back" and says nothing, well furhter reductions will become a "self fulfilling prophecy". If, on an individual basis, no one makes their disapproval of the reductions in terms & conditions known in writing to both Flight Operations & HR Management, then they will both assume the reductions are acceptable, as "sure as eggs are egg" more reductions will then follow.
As for Iran and their recent aircraft orders.
Their new aircraft will need crewing, for sure, but have you seen what Iran currently pay their pilots? It's certainly less than half of what Saudia pays for the A320 & B777 so Iran has some way to go, in pay terms, before they present any sort of a problem to Saudia's pay.
The bigger market is a China and South East Asia and that's where upward movement in flight crew salaries will occur.
The higher salaries are presently in China, mainly driven by the expansion of the Chinese domestic carriers and have risen in the last two years from about USD 200,000 to nearly USD 280,000 for the best paid airlines amongst them.
The Chinese carriers have not really started to expand internationally yet. Remember, that China currently has four out of ten of the world's largest airlines. When they do start to expand, the pay will continue upwards, certainly the next 5yrs to 7yrs.
When the Chinese market puts upward pressure on pilot salaries the rest of the expat market will follow.
I would expect that both Qatar & Etihad will have to increase salaries to continue to attract flight crew over the next three years. This is because the bulk of both of their large aircraft orders are due to start from next year going forward for next three years-just at the same time as expansion in China and South East Asia will fuel a huge demand for expat flight crew.
As for the Saudia expat pilots. If you want to stop further reductions in expat terms and conditions, then the expats should "put pen to paper" and let their grievances be made known to Saudia management.
The KSA government definitely has financial problems now and going forward. If the expat pilot group just "sits back" and says nothing, well furhter reductions will become a "self fulfilling prophecy". If, on an individual basis, no one makes their disapproval of the reductions in terms & conditions known in writing to both Flight Operations & HR Management, then they will both assume the reductions are acceptable, as "sure as eggs are egg" more reductions will then follow.
As for Iran and their recent aircraft orders.
Their new aircraft will need crewing, for sure, but have you seen what Iran currently pay their pilots? It's certainly less than half of what Saudia pays for the A320 & B777 so Iran has some way to go, in pay terms, before they present any sort of a problem to Saudia's pay.
The bigger market is a China and South East Asia and that's where upward movement in flight crew salaries will occur.
The higher salaries are presently in China, mainly driven by the expansion of the Chinese domestic carriers and have risen in the last two years from about USD 200,000 to nearly USD 280,000 for the best paid airlines amongst them.
The Chinese carriers have not really started to expand internationally yet. Remember, that China currently has four out of ten of the world's largest airlines. When they do start to expand, the pay will continue upwards, certainly the next 5yrs to 7yrs.
When the Chinese market puts upward pressure on pilot salaries the rest of the expat market will follow.
I would expect that both Qatar & Etihad will have to increase salaries to continue to attract flight crew over the next three years. This is because the bulk of both of their large aircraft orders are due to start from next year going forward for next three years-just at the same time as expansion in China and South East Asia will fuel a huge demand for expat flight crew.
As for the Saudia expat pilots. If you want to stop further reductions in expat terms and conditions, then the expats should "put pen to paper" and let their grievances be made known to Saudia management.
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3% bonus scrapped
With the scrapping of the 3% increase in the contract signed to be paid on hegira calendar changed in gregorian shows that the contract you sign outines only your obligatins but not theirs.
QUOTE=Flyboy_SG;9557041]How can they say no to the contract completion bonus, when it's part of our contract clause ?[/QUOTE]
QUOTE=Flyboy_SG;9557041]How can they say no to the contract completion bonus, when it's part of our contract clause ?[/QUOTE]
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Good luck than, I think they will realise what a problem they created with the outflow of extremely needed pilots to china. People are working in Saudi Arabia only for one reason.... not for the climate. Once that reason is removed.....
The supposed reason being "bandied about" by GM Flying & VP Flying for the "delay" or NON payment of the Contract Completon Bonus is that it is "according to a recent Royal Decree". Well, at least that is what is being relayed is the reason being given by SV HR Department.
However I find it very hard to believe, that if correct, the "decree" can be retrospectively applied to contractual agreements already signed and in existence. It will need someone, or a group, to challenge Saudia in the Saudi Labour Court.
However I find it very hard to believe, that if correct, the "decree" can be retrospectively applied to contractual agreements already signed and in existence. It will need someone, or a group, to challenge Saudia in the Saudi Labour Court.
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I am totally guessing but I imagine that shortly the Iranians will require 500+ (per year) experienced, current and qualified Pilots. I am certain that in the initial phase of that recruitment the package will have to be a good bit above the middle east average. I don't think that many of the right people will be attracted to Iran by 50% of Saudia's wage, nor do I think that they will be particularly attracted to Iran by Saudia's full wage.
" I am totally guessing but I imagine that shortly the Iranians will require 500+ (per year) experienced, current and qualified Pilots."
polax52,
Do you think Westerners would/should be hesitant about living and working in Iran under the political environment there ?
polax52,
Do you think Westerners would/should be hesitant about living and working in Iran under the political environment there ?
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Vamy, I agree with most of what you have said except for making grievances known with pen and paper. I have been watching this forum as well as several of the internal pilot chat groups. Hysterical may have been a strong word, but I do see a lot of uninformed posts and lots of guess work from the pilot group.
Unfortunately, losing pilots or failing to attract new pilots will be the only message that is actually heard.
Fact of life at Saudia, when it comes to expats, the squeaky wheel doesn't get the oil. It tends to get the hammer. If grievances are brought up in a respectful and professional manner they may get some attention. Most of the time grievances are not brought up within the culturally excepted norms.
Another fact is that Saudia needs to pay a premium to attract qualified pilots to live where they live, Jeddah is a fine place to live but it is not Dubai or Saigon. We can all agree that recruiting is difficult enough as it is for SVA, reducing the contract package will effectively dry up any pool of qualified applicants.
When airplanes are sitting idle for a lack of pilots, the salary reductions will be reversed and then increased. Yes, there are financial pressures on the country as a whole; however, in this global employment market, if you don't pay the cash, the qualified individuals will simply move to a more favourable contract. No one is here under duress, and this is not Europe or N.America were collective bargaining is an established practice.
Just my 2 cents.....
Unfortunately, losing pilots or failing to attract new pilots will be the only message that is actually heard.
Fact of life at Saudia, when it comes to expats, the squeaky wheel doesn't get the oil. It tends to get the hammer. If grievances are brought up in a respectful and professional manner they may get some attention. Most of the time grievances are not brought up within the culturally excepted norms.
Another fact is that Saudia needs to pay a premium to attract qualified pilots to live where they live, Jeddah is a fine place to live but it is not Dubai or Saigon. We can all agree that recruiting is difficult enough as it is for SVA, reducing the contract package will effectively dry up any pool of qualified applicants.
When airplanes are sitting idle for a lack of pilots, the salary reductions will be reversed and then increased. Yes, there are financial pressures on the country as a whole; however, in this global employment market, if you don't pay the cash, the qualified individuals will simply move to a more favourable contract. No one is here under duress, and this is not Europe or N.America were collective bargaining is an established practice.
Just my 2 cents.....
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To some extent Saudia is able to cover pilot shortage by hiring pilots mostly from ME countries and by lowering upgrade requirements. Once fleet expansion is over this will be enough. So, they may afford to pay lower salaries. With cheap oil they will probably go for cheaper options.
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Metro 301, I agree with much of your "2 cents worth" and in the past much of what you say was and still maybe true but possibly not so anymore?
Saudia is now changing.
Advice and expertise to the DG and Senior Saudia Management at Saudia, on the strategy how to "Transform, Grow & Improve" the airline is no longer coming from Saudi management. It is coming from an ever increasing group of newly employed expat senior airline managers, as well as from a group of well proven aviation and highly regarded consultants(nearly all British). These consultants advise the DG directly and have been doing so for more than a year. This means the DG and senior Saudia management know ALL the true problems within the airline and especially Flight Operations.
These expat advisors and managers know the true situation in ALL the airline's many departments, including Flight Opeartions-that is why there has been in change in VP Flight Operations & GM Flight Operations in the last two months. The same people also know that Flight Operations will have to rely on expat flight crew to help with expansion-certainly over the next five year period. These people certainly do not want the current expat pilots to leave.
In the past it may have been true that the "squeaky wheel got the hammer rather than the oil" but I do not think that is so now.
Furthermore, the Saudi national pilots as well, as our Egyptian colleagues amongst us, have a mechanism for voicing their "collective complaints". I see know reason why the other expat pilot groups should not utilize a similar mechanism.
Saudia is now changing.
Advice and expertise to the DG and Senior Saudia Management at Saudia, on the strategy how to "Transform, Grow & Improve" the airline is no longer coming from Saudi management. It is coming from an ever increasing group of newly employed expat senior airline managers, as well as from a group of well proven aviation and highly regarded consultants(nearly all British). These consultants advise the DG directly and have been doing so for more than a year. This means the DG and senior Saudia management know ALL the true problems within the airline and especially Flight Operations.
These expat advisors and managers know the true situation in ALL the airline's many departments, including Flight Opeartions-that is why there has been in change in VP Flight Operations & GM Flight Operations in the last two months. The same people also know that Flight Operations will have to rely on expat flight crew to help with expansion-certainly over the next five year period. These people certainly do not want the current expat pilots to leave.
In the past it may have been true that the "squeaky wheel got the hammer rather than the oil" but I do not think that is so now.
Furthermore, the Saudi national pilots as well, as our Egyptian colleagues amongst us, have a mechanism for voicing their "collective complaints". I see know reason why the other expat pilot groups should not utilize a similar mechanism.
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The higher salaries are presently in China, mainly driven by the expansion of the Chinese domestic carriers and have risen in the last two years from about USD 200,000 to nearly USD 280,000 for the best paid airlines amongst them.
The Chinese carriers have not really started to expand internationally yet. Remember, that China currently has four out of ten of the world's largest airlines. When they do start to expand, the pay will continue upwards, certainly the next 5yrs to 7yrs.
When the Chinese market puts upward pressure on pilot salaries the rest of the expat market will follow.
The Chinese carriers have not really started to expand internationally yet. Remember, that China currently has four out of ten of the world's largest airlines. When they do start to expand, the pay will continue upwards, certainly the next 5yrs to 7yrs.
When the Chinese market puts upward pressure on pilot salaries the rest of the expat market will follow.
VOR Holdings Captains with over five years of service at Sichuan Airlines earn up to $352,800 per year plus overtime. With built-in pay increases, Captains with over ten years of service will earn up to $403,800 USD per year plus overtime. Sichuan Airlines is the highest paying airline in China and one of the highest in the world!
Compensation per month (net received by pilot after airline has paid taxes in China):
Option A (45 days annual leave)
$25,150 USD per month ($301,800 USD per year in year one) plus $250 USD per block hour over 85 hours per month plus longevity bonus which increases by $10 USD per hour X 85 hours per month after each 12 months
Option B (103 days of leave per year)
$20,700 USD per month ($248,400 USD per year in year one) plus $215 USD per block hour over 80 hours per month plus longevity bonus which increases by $10 USD per hour X 80 hours per month after each 12 months
Option C (161 days of leave per year)
$16,600 USD per month ($199,200 USD per year in year one) plus $180 USD per block hour over 75 hours per month plus longevity bonus which increases by $10 USD per hour X 80 hours per month after each 12 months
Option D (1 month ON, 1 month OFF)
$15,100 USD per month ($181,200 USD per year in year one) plus $160 USD per block hour over 75 hours per month plus longevity bonus which increases by $10 USD per hour X 75 hours per month after each 12 months
If you have at least 500 PIC hours in the A319/320/321 aircraft, 3,000 hours Total Time, current within 12 months and are under the age of 56, please send us the following information to schedule your interview:
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And the reason for the salaries being high in China? Because they have bigger issues for expat Pilots than there are at Saudia.
They have interviews with 15 qualified and current 777 pilots and they all fail. It depends on whether the flight department or the medical department are having a good day.
Back to plan A.
They have interviews with 15 qualified and current 777 pilots and they all fail. It depends on whether the flight department or the medical department are having a good day.
Back to plan A.
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And the reason for the salaries being high in China? Because they have bigger issues for expat Pilots than there are at Saudia.
They have interviews with 15 qualified and current 777 pilots and they all fail. It depends on whether the flight department or the medical department are having a good day.
Back to plan A.
They have interviews with 15 qualified and current 777 pilots and they all fail. It depends on whether the flight department or the medical department are having a good day.
Back to plan A.
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Concerning China. In 2012 I did the selection & sim for China Southern when they first stared recruiting. Although the sim wasn't easy, any Captain experienced on the equipment and with a few thousand hours on type would pass without trouble. That's the level of experience China Southern were seeking for their long haul expat Captains. If you could pass the sim check with a lesser level of experience, then so much the better for you. The rest of the selection was conducted very gentleman like. The problem I faced at the time was retirement at 60 yrs of age. Even back then, the money was very good.