LR is correct. If the conditions were the same when I joined, as they are now, I would not have joined.
The deterioration of our T&C's has gathered momentum. Emirates is no longer what it was, as short as 5 years ago. I'm sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but everyone should reconsider EK now. It has gotten that bad here.
ps. Kingofthe... I agree with what you say but can you stop using da's, ders and y'alls and write properly? You lose all credibility when you write like an uneducated teenager. I don't mean it as a slag on you, more a constructive criticism.
Firstly its not a pound of flesh anymore its a kilo, a big step back.
But
LR3 you need to get the facts first
O/T is still at the same rate you were told at the interveiw( maybe even gone up 0 , unfortunately its at 92 hrs now
Use to be villsa and now its town houses... what do you call H84's and the 164's and the list goes on .Other than DSO most are not stand alone villas. Talk to some of the guys in 2 bed apt's and they love it because of the size and location
You knew there was no unions when you joined, a bit a research for those thinking of coming is a must and lack of it can only be blamed on yourself.
Buyer beware
Myself and hundreds others are waiting for the next best thing so if you know of one lets us know.
there is another sad truth, the airline is materially different from a few years ago. So many guys I fly with have very little good to say about the current crop of weeds, sorry, managers.
If I knew how quickly, and in which direction, things would change, I am sure that I would have stayed in my warm third world country. Alas, I was one who was stupid enough to believe the recruiters, and now I and my family are paying for my lack of astutenenss. 11 months in, and still in temporary accommodation, why did I believe them when they said maybe a few weeks in temp? Overtime limit pushed from 78 to 92 hours, no attempt to soften the blow, just there u are, we know that market conditions are bad (i.e. you can't go anywhere) so suck it up.
Oh well, when things improve, and they will, for this is a cyclical industry, there will be an exodus, and the managers will be running around trying to improve conditions to keep people. And that is when the older managers will realise that package is not the be all and end all to make an employee happy, respect and trust is also important. Afetr only 11 months I can hardly believe that I have none of that left for them already
Yes I know the O/T rate is the same but it now starts at 92 hrs so they can work us harder without any extra pay except for productivity or whatever it is the idiots call it for every hour you fly.
And guess how many hours we will all be getting in April?
Yep you guessed it 92
And as far as the accomodation is concerned there are always cases of people falling on their feet but they are in the very small minority.
I guess my comments were a generalization but true none the less.
Just trying to point out to the new guys that it is not wise to believe all you are told from EK.
And yes, I too would never have come here if EK offered me the current conditions.
"Keep Discovering" the next thing they are going to take away from us.
There's a very simple principle to follow for any prospective joiners. (Well, there won't be any for awhile as apparently recruiting is done for 2009).
The very best day of your employment at Emirates will be the very first day you work for them. Every single day after that will be worse. I cannot think of any aspect of living in Dubai or working for Emirates that has stayed the same or materially improved over the course of the last few years. Oh, there have been some bright spots which I'm sure the faithful will jump all over to convince themselves of how wonderful it is. But it's one step forward, three back.
Only 3 or 4 years ago, a disaffected Belgian ex-EK pilot used to frequent these pages bad-mouthing EK. Many EK pilots replied, myself included, defending the company and telling the world that the Belgain was wrong in what he was saying.
Karl, I think you'd be met with either a wall of silence or a chorus of agreement from theose same pilots if you were do make those same allegations today.
Gentlemen, what a load of crap.
All of you deride the company for one reason or another yet none of you leave. The fact is that notwithstanding the a**hole managers (well some of them anyway) we have, being a pilot at EK is still one of the best jobs in the industry right now.
Yes, we have problems. The credit crunch hurts the company as anybody else. I can hence understand the change in overtime rules. I do however think the day-off rules are totally stupid. No matter what, I am very thankful that I am at EK not anywhere else.
To those of you complaining about still being in temporary accomodation - you do have a point that promises were broken but just thank your lucky stars that you have a good job with some sense of security and see the big picture around you. Hasn't anyone of you read what Captain Sully (bless him) said about deteriorating conditions back in the US?
Whoever was trying to differentiate between villas and townhouses - please give us a break. With your reasoning then the guys who used to live at Flamingo or Chicago Beach had cause for complaint - because they lived in BUNGALOWS!!!!!
Those of you who have been here long enough should by now know (hello people wake up!!!!) that every time there's a downturn, EK takes away from us and when all's well and pilots start to leave, conditions improve. It's a fact of life here AND IT WILL NOT CHANGE.
People like Casio Man make me sick, saying he's been here 14 months and wouln't have come here with the current conditions. BUDDY DIDN"T YOU READ PPRuNe????? These same people complaining with you warned you a hundred times over!!!!!!!!!!
Let it be a warning to all you wannabees out there. Join EK if you want a job where you work hard flying, work hard keeping your family happy in whatever the circumstances and thank f*ck every moment of your life that you're not waiting for that phone call asking you to go to the office for the bad news that you've just lost your job. Again.
casio man and his US and ZA buddies (yes I mean you skyvan) had six or more years of back postings on this board to read and check that leave no doubts at all about how this airline goes about it's business.
Sheesh!
And MTOW, check out poster Bitburger in the search function and you'll find that Karl is not that far away (as recently as January on the ME forum). Not that his particular problems have any relevance to anything that's being discussed here.
Picu,
Back off. Put yourself in the shoes of the lastest batch of new joiners, 6-18 mo's.
No accomodations, families in distress.
No ability to commute, families in distress after being fed up with temp. accommodations and have left.
Random insertion of ADs, adds nothing to bottom line.
Max five days off in a row, adds nothing to bottom line.
Max five days off added to leave, adds nothing to bottom line.
Max 12 days off a month, adds nothing to bottom line.
Factoring and productivity pay reduction. Does add to the bottom line. No no-cost items to soften the blow such as open time and swap boards.
Minimum or no Profit Sharing (PBUH)-adds to bottom line.
BMI testing but not lifestyle testing (smoking, cholesterol, fatigue)=harassment.
So according to your reasoning, we should all be thankful to our magnanimous employer and lower our heads as we traverse the EGHK doorway.
Hey, unless you want to go to KAL, Air India, Lagos or Japan, there aren't too many jobs out there. So I guess we all have to gut it out for awhile. But, if the world turns positive and EK starts making big time profits, do you believe that all of the above will be rescinded? You think that factoring will go away? You think we will be able to get 10 days in a row off in our top bid months? If you do, you are either an unbelievable optimist or getting used to sand in your lungs and liking it.
And you yourself said, when things turn around and PEOPLE START TO LEAVE that T&Cs would start to improve. Is that anyway to run a business, only retain personnel after losses of personnel can't be sustained? Why not motivate personnel NOW, other than offering employment? This is the time when true management competence and adroitness comes into play. We'll see together, I'm afraid. But I won't be holding my breath
Sorry old bean,
I don't need to put myself in their shoes. Some time after I joined and expected a very quick command, the rules changed and it became minimum 3 years at EK before upgrade. I lost out on that but I didn't let it bring me down. I made an effort to enjoy my time as F/O and use the time in the right seat to listen and learn - which eventually helped when my name came up.
No accommodation - I already said - promises were broken. It's a huge shame indeed and entirely the fault of the company. New wannabees in the pool please note.
No ability to commute. This issue has been raised on PPRuNe before and many have said before that it is very hard to commute at EK. The new recent rules just confirmed this further. To new wannabees - don't come to EK expecting to commute. (unless you live in Abu Dhabi)
New rostering rules - I have already said they are stupid.
Factoring has been there for donkeys' years, since about a year after A340 long haul ops started. And it was on PPRuNe too.
Productivity pay reduction. I don't like it either but I accept it as a cost saving measure in these trying times so people like Casio Man can keep his job and afford the internet to post silly things on PPRuNe.
No profit sharing? You have got to be kidding.Since when was this guaranteed? Anyone who joins EK on the basis of the profit share should be flogged.
BMI testing is harrassment? Why? At the end of the day shedding extra pounds is good for you. Re smoking and cholesterol - I get told off by the EK clinic doctor every annual medical for smoking and having high cholesterol. I accept it as sage advice and thank him for it but I don't think it's harrasment.
Quote:
So according to your reasoning, we should all be thankful to our magnanimous employer and lower our heads as we traverse the EGHK doorway
. Like I already said. I thank f*ck every day I work for EK. (hey that rhymes - maybe I'll print a t-shirt)
Quote:
Hey, unless you want to go to KAL, Air India, Lagos or Japan, there aren't too many jobs out there. So I guess we all have to gut it out for awhile. But, if the world turns positive and EK starts making big time profits, do you believe that all of the above will be rescinded? You think that factoring will go away? You think we will be able to get 10 days in a row off in our top bid months? If you do, you are either an unbelievable optimist or getting used to sand in your lungs and liking it.
If the world turns positive (not for another couple of years at least, I think) and EK does not improve conditions, pilots will leave to go to greener pastures and EK will improve conditions. As I already said.
Factoring will not go away. Like it did not go away when over a hundred pilots left about 2 years ago ( and we had a pay increase, flight pay etc).
Yes i believe the days off and rostering rules will change for the better soon.
I am an unbelievable optimist and there are many like me here. I would NOT like to be working anywhere else in the world today.
As to your last statement, you just didn't get what I said the first time didn't you? Yes that's the way EK does business. The business model sucks but I've been here long enough to understand it. What's more, knowing EK I bet that there will be further erosion of our Ts and Cs in the near future. Why? Because that's how they work. Knowing that it's coming beforehand makes it far less painful.
Enough. Please forward his to all the EK wannabees out there. So thay can't say they didn't know.
I get told off by the EK clinic doctor every annual medical for smoking and having high cholesterol. I accept it as sage advice and thank him for it but I don't think it's harrasment.
Do you have some kind of death wish ?
I for one praise the Lord every sunrise that I am not working for EK.
I come down on duty once in a while and I find the place amazingly distastefull not to mention the work practices.
None of what I'm reading in the financial press matches your current optimism when it comes to the sandpitt. I read horror stories such as expats having lost their job must leave after so many weeks / months unless they can find another job; hoodles of cars standing at the airport their owners having waved sayonara in a hurry. And talk of screwing up the environment !
Have the rusky hookers left towards greener pastures ?? There were tons of them last time I visited; bloody horrible sight.
Wasn't defending Dubai, Monsieur, only EK. Living here is something we have to accept. I agree the place is certainly distasteful, but you can still live a good life once you learn a few tricks.
The financial situation, to an extent, has been a godsend. Building work stopped, traffic reduced a little etc.
Indeed, apart from the winter weather, Dubai is incomparable with Paris. Few cities in the world come close to The City of Light in terms of beauty, culture and amazing food and wine.
Well I've got to agree with most of what Picu says... When business is down costs WILL be cut, when things get better our terms will improve too - simple law of supply and demand boys and girls..
As to the new 92 hour threshold for overtime pay - that's what it is, NOT a monthly target.. Even if they try to roster to that it won't work because the fatigue problem will rear it's head - remember that it's YOUR responsibility to not fly if you are TIRED. Fill the forms in etc like the last time around with factoring. These people with no experience of long haul flying have to made to understand somehow
As to the days off string of 5 max and 12 XX per month - that too will quietly die out.. It's just smoke and fire from the 'weeds' to satisfy higher 'weeds', it'll all blow over when they realise that the AD's become flights become overtime when the guys on reserve are doing virtually NOTHING..
Yes - the temporary accommodation is an absolute debacle and the manager of that department should have been fired a long time ago.
Still, it could be worse - you could be on a 5 day trip with LR3, now wouldn't that be a barrel of laughs
Fellas it going to be a few years yet before it gets better…..For me in America, our economy is hurting like no one has seen. We have some of the “smartest” people dishing out advice everyday and no seems to know what to do. Can anyone really doubt that Emirates/UAE will take a major hit or is? Life at Emirates…will it get better. Someday down the road…maybe? But is that the important question to ask….. Unfortunately, you guys and gal(s) have to live with it or not; and so do the rest of us, wherever we are at the moment. It really just comes down to hard decisions. I myself have agonized about wanting the airlines in the USA to improve. But you can’t spend your life on just hoping someday things will get better. You have to start living now for yourself and your family; and make decisions that will allow you to do just that.
I spoke the other night to a good friend who was furloughed last year, he called at 11:15pm. I was on a trip and I quickly called back because he never calls that late now that he and his wife have a baby boy. The short of the conversation, like many I have these days, centered around how bad it’s gotten and why he was not able to find work anywhere; at least anything that you wouldn’t have to comprise yourself to do.
I remember when he and I got out of flight training in the military. There we were 20 something years old, we barely had the respect of our parents as grown ups. But he and I were dropping bombs and flying into crazy war zones together. Such responsibility and trust the military gave to us; our country gave to us. He has a degree, graduate of the Naval Academy, former military aviator, and 121 pilot. He is a great guy like so many other guys I know. He has thousands of hours and great experience. Here he was on the phone, a bit tipsy, wondering why his credentials can’t get him hired at the few places that are still looking…..after months of being out of work (almost a year)…..It was a rare side of my friend I have never ever heard. Not on any mission we had done…not on any long deployment as we sat together talking or something else. He was scared and pissed and drunk. I hate what this chase has done to my friend; this industry; this craziness. The only advice I could offer my friend was……MOVE ON BROTHER! You have great leadership experience with over a decade of military service and several years in the airlines. Let’s get you back to school and out into a different arena where people will appreciate your talents and experience. Where everyday you gain experience and if you leave that job people don’t have the balls to ask you start at the bottom of some seniority list. My friends at DHL who are furloughed will have had more than 15years flying heavies. And does anyone know where he or she can start now?
I have no freaking idea! Some are desperate enough to start at the very bottom again at places like Compass in the states flying EMB170’s for 23/hr.
Yeah! Competition is ridiculous right now and I get the down turn in the economy. When did it take over 10000 hours+ to be a good pilot. When did it take heavy time to get a job flying heavy airplanes? When did you have come to a job already type rated with years of experience for crappy wages somewhere else to get a corporate gig? Or my favorite, When did you start needing multiple type ratings and hundreds of hours in each type? Hell if I don’t know!!!
A CEO of company said a few years back in not some many words that pilots are silly hopeless fouls. Hmmm! Hell ! maybe we are?
I was flying back to today from my home state of Maryland. We were pounded by 12 inches of snow, while annoyingly cold, it was beautiful to see all the snow on the trees; and, I hate snow. As I was leaving my parents home, I remember hearing a father up the street playing with his kids in the snow. On the drive over to DCA to catch my flight, I realized that there was hardly any traffic or accidents; which if anyone knows the DCA/Maryland Area you know that is nothing short of a miracle. Everyone decided to stay home it had seemed and enjoy the time away from work. Why fight the weather some days, you just have to say the hell with it and enjoy your life. And I say the same thing for guys/gals in the pool, live your lives......why are we as pilots unwilling to just stay at home and enjoy our kids/family or in whatever small corner of the world we are from. Let's take the advice of many of the gents on here who are providing warnings about our choices and what we are willing to give up in pursuit of shiny jets at Emirates.
I have been in the pool for quite sometime and I thank Emirates and you guys here. Even this economic downturn and my friend has reminded me of what is really important in life. I have agonized as to why I still wanted to come to Emirates or anywhere else for that matter in the Middle East. I have been lucky and while I have lost some in the stock market and this downturn promises to get worst. It’s going to be ok and so is NOT coming to Emirates just to make tax free money and fly the 777 or whatever. Because….on any given day…I can jump into my car or my jeep with the top down and take it on a drive thru the hills. Or I can go out on the lake with my buddies boat and wake boarding all day with our significant others. I sure as hell can't do that in Dubai.
Yes! Emirates isn’t for everyone. But you really have to make decisions about your own happiness. Because Emirates management doesn’t give a crap about you nor does my airline here in the states….but that’s going to have to be ok. You’re going to have to look out for your own interest because this industry is appearing everyday to be a fools errand for most of the guys/gals in it. Too many talented guys and gals wasting their time hoping someday when things will get better as if management has any interest, particularly in the Middle East, in seeing your lives get better. Yes! It’s sad state of affairs when you can’t just work for a company that values your service and the work you contribute and looks out for your interest. But at this point in our history, we are far from that kind of realization in the airline business.
But you wait in about 2 weeks….some will sign into Prune wanting know what’s going on at Emirates and how they can get hired. It’s amazing we don’t listen to advice sometimes or take the warning from people when offered. But you can’t save everyone, so save yourself and family.
Last, I got a call from a government contractor 2 weeks back who was looking for a guy who could go to Iraq or Afghanistan. I had sent out a resume or two last year completely out of the flying business. He found my resume and wanted to offer me a job. Well it turns out the job was for $350k a year doing some that I had done in the military with a follow on job in the states when I returned from my year. Well, I am not sure what my decision will be. Because at the end of the day, I have already been there and done that already; And, how much is your life worth anyway? So, I pose that question to my fellow pilots when they now complain about management and T&Cs. How much is your happiness worth or for that matter your families happiness? I dunno....but this offer of employment should prove that even as diffcult as things are, there are still options and companies willing to hire you to do work for them for great wages and benefits. Don't ride the jet in......know when to pull the ejection handle. For me, it looks like "a good chute."
Last edited by drnetsurfer : 3rd March 2009 at 16:30.
Good God !!! Neither have I. Hope he feels better for it.
Listen mate, you have to live witht the following : We're only truck drivers !! What need is there of us if there is no one to fly. Stop feeling like a martyr !! Cuz let me tell you there are many others in much worse situation than yours.
We are just a byproduct of economic growth. When the economy grows, then we're needed, when not...............well, then not. We're nothing special, just one of the actor of the economy.
You want to be on top of everything ??? Have a super amazing wonderfull idea, start your own business in your garage and become the Bill Gates of tommorrow. I believe these guys too have worked their tail off too.
I've tried having a super rewarding idea.........nothing came up, so for now I'm happy doing what I do because I am much too lazy to do something else.
It doesn't take a PhD in astrophysic to understand that the world isn't " unfair and mean " to us ". Sorry for your friend. I still have a job today and I hope I have one tommorrow, but who knows ?? I've been unemployed before.
For 20 years now, everybody and especially sectors of the economy like airlines, have enjoyed a totally artificial growth. We had pax to fly because people had the illusion the economy was sound. Everybody borrowed like there was no tommorrow chosing not to find the whole thing a bit odd and too easy...............and then the music stopped.
I am thankfull I was raised in the hate of debts and I never lived above my station and what I made.
The problem with airline pilots is they have always thought they were something special. Well, wake up and smell the coffee, we ain't !! Just pro's like there are millions other who by the way keep a stuff upper lip and move on.
As to DXB, here's what I just read on Nouriel Roubini's news letter :
White Elephants in the UAE: How Large a Property Slump?
Average prices for Abu Dhabi’s major property projects have dropped by 15% to 25% since peaking in Q3 2008 (National Bank of Abu Dhabi). Dubai high-end rents may fall as much as 40% in 2009
Vacancies in Dubai’s office market have doubled to around 16% over the past 6 months, the highest recorded. Hotels report lowest occupancy on record. More than 50% of the announced residential and commercial projects due for completion between 2009 and 2012 have now been either put on hold or cancelled (Jones LaSalle)
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