EK Resignations
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LHR Rain:
I don't know why I bother replying, you just don't seem to get it even when presented with facts. The market in the United States was horrible post 9-11. 10,000 pilots were furloughed from the major airlines. The vast majority of jobs they could get were at the regional airlines for $45,000 per year to start ( as captain ) or Netjets for $27,000 per year to start as an F.O. Some of the bigger airlines were hiring but not in big numbers.
Since you bring up both Delta and Southwest I will mention them. A long time ago in my first commuter airline interview the question was asked, " where do you see youself in three years ". My answer was, " as a pilot for Delta Airlines ". For a period of about 7 years I continually applied and tried to find a way into Delta. Not having been a Naval Aviator or having flown the Space Shuttle ( or perhaps because I'm from California ) they have never called me for an interview. So just because you WANT to work somewhere doesn't mean you CAN work somewhere. Southwest is slightly different. Southwest requires a pilot to have a 737 type rating before being hired. How you get it is up to you. I live my career by a code that I will never pay for my own training. Southwest wasn't an option until I could get a 737 type rating for free. I do, in fact, have one now and Southwest did call me for an interview last year. I sat down and figured out the plusses and minuses and came to the realization that I would rather be here than go to Southwest. Monetarily over 20 years the jobs come out equal. Career satisfaction wise, Emirates comes out way ahead.
The point about how much a Delta or United 777 Captain makes is moot. Even if they were hiring, guys our age would never see the left seat of any of their airplanes if hired today.
Again, I'll tell you that envy isn't very becoming. You can envy a Delta or United 777 Captain all you want, but you nor I will ever see that position so why even bring it up ?
I make a lot more than I would of back home, that is the point I am trying to get across to you.
TP
I don't know why I bother replying, you just don't seem to get it even when presented with facts. The market in the United States was horrible post 9-11. 10,000 pilots were furloughed from the major airlines. The vast majority of jobs they could get were at the regional airlines for $45,000 per year to start ( as captain ) or Netjets for $27,000 per year to start as an F.O. Some of the bigger airlines were hiring but not in big numbers.
Since you bring up both Delta and Southwest I will mention them. A long time ago in my first commuter airline interview the question was asked, " where do you see youself in three years ". My answer was, " as a pilot for Delta Airlines ". For a period of about 7 years I continually applied and tried to find a way into Delta. Not having been a Naval Aviator or having flown the Space Shuttle ( or perhaps because I'm from California ) they have never called me for an interview. So just because you WANT to work somewhere doesn't mean you CAN work somewhere. Southwest is slightly different. Southwest requires a pilot to have a 737 type rating before being hired. How you get it is up to you. I live my career by a code that I will never pay for my own training. Southwest wasn't an option until I could get a 737 type rating for free. I do, in fact, have one now and Southwest did call me for an interview last year. I sat down and figured out the plusses and minuses and came to the realization that I would rather be here than go to Southwest. Monetarily over 20 years the jobs come out equal. Career satisfaction wise, Emirates comes out way ahead.
The point about how much a Delta or United 777 Captain makes is moot. Even if they were hiring, guys our age would never see the left seat of any of their airplanes if hired today.
Again, I'll tell you that envy isn't very becoming. You can envy a Delta or United 777 Captain all you want, but you nor I will ever see that position so why even bring it up ?
Just because you are not making as much as you did back home don't take it out on someone who questions you.
TP
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Well at least things seem to recover a bit in the States. At Continental everybody who has been furloughed after 9/11 is now back in the saddle. And they continue hiring.
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Brix,
Unfortunately Continental is the only one recalling. American will furlough more, and the others will spend years before recalling.
TP. Well said!
LHR Rain,
I did not bring up Delta or Southwest because I do not know the southwest contract, and Delta is evolving daily. I think Delta will be in bankruptcy before the end of the year, the salaries have droped 30% and will drop in the future. the pilots gave the company 20 years to make up the retirement fund shortfall, and that may not be enough. Delta is the highest paid in the industry, and the chances of you or I being hired there are non existant.
What Pension issues are you refering to? Usair pilot pension was terminated and taken over by the government in April of 2003, and the average loss per pilot was nearly 75% of their accrued pension. The United pension fund was terminated and taken over by the government last month. Southwest has a very poor pension plan that only benefits the senior pilots. Northwest Pilot pension fund is nearly 3 billion dollars in the red, and it is the same at every other airline. The government pension agencey estimates that the total underfunding of the airline pension fund in the us to be over 15 billion dollars.
I am making almost as much as I was making at home, and I will be a break even this year. Next year I will make more here than I would have in the states. This is a better job, and a better position.
I am not attacking you! I am only saying that you do not have the experience or knowledge to compare Emirates to any airline in the states. Aviation in the states is not good at all unless you are at one of 4 airlines. I am better off here.
Regarding the union, the JNB crew would have benefited greatly, but it is my experience that the union did more harm than good at my last company. I lost my pension, took over a 50%pay cut, and kept moving downward in position and aircraft. And the MEC voted to approve it all while being paid a full salary from the union. You can have it!
And finally, between leave, training, and sick you can fly 90 hours a month and still stay under 1000 per year which is the FAA limit.
Unfortunately Continental is the only one recalling. American will furlough more, and the others will spend years before recalling.
TP. Well said!
LHR Rain,
I did not bring up Delta or Southwest because I do not know the southwest contract, and Delta is evolving daily. I think Delta will be in bankruptcy before the end of the year, the salaries have droped 30% and will drop in the future. the pilots gave the company 20 years to make up the retirement fund shortfall, and that may not be enough. Delta is the highest paid in the industry, and the chances of you or I being hired there are non existant.
What Pension issues are you refering to? Usair pilot pension was terminated and taken over by the government in April of 2003, and the average loss per pilot was nearly 75% of their accrued pension. The United pension fund was terminated and taken over by the government last month. Southwest has a very poor pension plan that only benefits the senior pilots. Northwest Pilot pension fund is nearly 3 billion dollars in the red, and it is the same at every other airline. The government pension agencey estimates that the total underfunding of the airline pension fund in the us to be over 15 billion dollars.
I am making almost as much as I was making at home, and I will be a break even this year. Next year I will make more here than I would have in the states. This is a better job, and a better position.
I am not attacking you! I am only saying that you do not have the experience or knowledge to compare Emirates to any airline in the states. Aviation in the states is not good at all unless you are at one of 4 airlines. I am better off here.
Regarding the union, the JNB crew would have benefited greatly, but it is my experience that the union did more harm than good at my last company. I lost my pension, took over a 50%pay cut, and kept moving downward in position and aircraft. And the MEC voted to approve it all while being paid a full salary from the union. You can have it!
And finally, between leave, training, and sick you can fly 90 hours a month and still stay under 1000 per year which is the FAA limit.
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330man, Typhoonpilot, thanks for your posts.
It's gratifying to know there are at least two adults working at Emirates. I hope that group continues to grow
It's gratifying to know there are at least two adults working at Emirates. I hope that group continues to grow
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Very mature indeed.... you guys should be airline managers...
A pilot's worst enemy is no other that the guy sitting accross the throttle quadrant. You guys keep making your educated points and you will make us eligible to another paycut!
I am off to get some more vaseline...
A pilot's worst enemy is no other that the guy sitting accross the throttle quadrant. You guys keep making your educated points and you will make us eligible to another paycut!
I am off to get some more vaseline...
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Dropp,are you an office boy?
330 Man,nicely explained to those of us,less knowledgible on the US situation and perhaps you are here through circumstance,rather than choice.Good luck. For those who chose to come to EK to further their careers,it has been a mixed bag.Early commands,good flying was the attraction,and in the main delivered.Until approximately 2 years ago.It has IMHO eroded continually and through no need. EK is hugely successful,so why treat the single most important asset that affects safety with such contempt?It appears nobody who could prevent it,has done so,we are isolated and not represented,please suggest an alternative view if I am wrong.Who represents the pilots?Who defends us?
No doubt Dropp,you and the other "adults" would do he job for free,if it means stardom,greatness,office days,weekends off,and your own car parking slot and secretary.
Back to kindergarten for me with the naughty little boys.QB
330 Man,nicely explained to those of us,less knowledgible on the US situation and perhaps you are here through circumstance,rather than choice.Good luck. For those who chose to come to EK to further their careers,it has been a mixed bag.Early commands,good flying was the attraction,and in the main delivered.Until approximately 2 years ago.It has IMHO eroded continually and through no need. EK is hugely successful,so why treat the single most important asset that affects safety with such contempt?It appears nobody who could prevent it,has done so,we are isolated and not represented,please suggest an alternative view if I am wrong.Who represents the pilots?Who defends us?
No doubt Dropp,you and the other "adults" would do he job for free,if it means stardom,greatness,office days,weekends off,and your own car parking slot and secretary.
Back to kindergarten for me with the naughty little boys.QB
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DAVIDLETTERMAN
Once again onto the offensive for those that try and give a balanced view of Emirates.You're always quick to push the " you should be a manager " title onto those that dare to offer alternative points of views. Perhaps next time you post , why don't you enlighten us all here as to what really gets your beef?
Perhaps if you really hate it here as much as you claim you could use that vaseline of yours to 'slide' off into another job.
Still here making you laugh.........
Regards
Your worst enemy who sits on the other side of the throttle quadrant
Once again onto the offensive for those that try and give a balanced view of Emirates.You're always quick to push the " you should be a manager " title onto those that dare to offer alternative points of views. Perhaps next time you post , why don't you enlighten us all here as to what really gets your beef?
Perhaps if you really hate it here as much as you claim you could use that vaseline of yours to 'slide' off into another job.
Still here making you laugh.........
Regards
Your worst enemy who sits on the other side of the throttle quadrant
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I belive that 330 man does not tell a complete accurate picture of how it is in the land of opportunity. Both United and US Air pilots voluntarliy gave up their pensions which has turned the US industry into a tailspin. They voted to get rid of them. Now Northwest Delta American etc etc are brow betting their pilots to follow US Air and Untieds "lead".
You might be making more here in the sand but I know it is more expensive in Dubai then England and must be loads cheaper than the US which often does not get factored into the equasion.
I guess we will just disagree on which area is better. I know the grass is usually greener on the other side of the path and I take your points seriously.
You might be making more here in the sand but I know it is more expensive in Dubai then England and must be loads cheaper than the US which often does not get factored into the equasion.
I guess we will just disagree on which area is better. I know the grass is usually greener on the other side of the path and I take your points seriously.
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I belive that 330 man does not tell a complete accurate picture of how it is in the land of opportunity. Both United and US Air pilots voluntarliy gave up their pensions which has turned the US industry into a tailspin. They voted to get rid of them. Now Northwest Delta American etc etc are brow betting their pilots to follow US Air and Untieds "lead".
Number 1: USAirways pilots did not vote to give up their pension. The company held a gun to the Union's head and said, "give up the pensions or we'll liquidate the company". The Union, with no vote from the pilot group, agreed to this demand. Faced with a 100% cut in pay for all members and the loss of their pensions or just the loss of the pensions, the Union did the only thing they could have. Perhaps they could have called the bluff, but then again maybe it wasn't a bluff.
Number 2: The pilot groups at both USAirways and United were trying to get the government rules regarding pension funds changed so that the funds wouldn't have to be terminated in the first place. The pension funding rules and those that put pensions funds up for termination never expected the "perfect storm"of the post 9-11 downfall of the financial markets and the company's inability to make required payments. They wouldn't allow for a reasonable time to recoup the underfunded amount with a payment schedule stretched over a longer period of time.
Number 3: The termination of the United and USAirways pension funds is not what has put the U.S. airline industry into a tailspin. It was the after effects of the post 9-11 downturn in air travel combined with the collapse of the stock market bubble of the late 90s. The airline industry in the U.S. was already beginning to suffer before 9-11 happened. The high end business traveller who had been fleeced for so many years was abandoning the major airlines in favor of corporate fractional operators. 9-11 only served to accelerate that process due to the percieved safety issues of travelling on a commercial airliner as well as the hassle of security screening. Into this market situation the Low Cost Carriers arrive to steal the holiday traveller away, further reducing load factors and eroding yield.
Typhoonpilot
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Fly one sector and get back on the prune, an discover that I voluntarily gave up my pension that I accrued for over 20 years! I am really stupid to do that! What could I have been thinking! I know, I was thinking that I would come to Emirates and make it all up! Thats it! The insanity of it all!
LHR RAIN: Saying that I voluntarily gave up my pension, is like saying you know what you are talking about.
For your information, the US government through the PBGC (Pension Benefit Guarantee Corporation) filed a brief with the bankruptcy court encouraging the court to terminate the fund. The PBGC finding was that If Usair had to make up the shortfall in the pilot pension fund, Usair would shut down immediately! The court agreed. The union could have sued in federal court to stop it, but would have lost. (As I said in the earlier post, you do not have the knowledge or experience to comment on aviation in the states.)
You strike me as a young lad learning how to be an airline pilot, it is not what you thought it would be, and so you complain to the whole world. Be a man for once in your life. If you are so miserable, than quit and find something to do that you enjoy. Life is too short to be miserable. If you stay in this profession, you will find that it is full of ups and downs, never what you thought it would be, and in a constant state of change. Sometimes it is for the better, but not always.
To blame the pilots at Usair and United for this mess shows a total lack of respect for fellow pilots and this profession itself.
TP is right on in his explaination, and I can add nothing more.
330 Man
LHR RAIN: Saying that I voluntarily gave up my pension, is like saying you know what you are talking about.
For your information, the US government through the PBGC (Pension Benefit Guarantee Corporation) filed a brief with the bankruptcy court encouraging the court to terminate the fund. The PBGC finding was that If Usair had to make up the shortfall in the pilot pension fund, Usair would shut down immediately! The court agreed. The union could have sued in federal court to stop it, but would have lost. (As I said in the earlier post, you do not have the knowledge or experience to comment on aviation in the states.)
You strike me as a young lad learning how to be an airline pilot, it is not what you thought it would be, and so you complain to the whole world. Be a man for once in your life. If you are so miserable, than quit and find something to do that you enjoy. Life is too short to be miserable. If you stay in this profession, you will find that it is full of ups and downs, never what you thought it would be, and in a constant state of change. Sometimes it is for the better, but not always.
To blame the pilots at Usair and United for this mess shows a total lack of respect for fellow pilots and this profession itself.
TP is right on in his explaination, and I can add nothing more.
330 Man
Last edited by 330 Man; 30th Apr 2005 at 05:52.
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Heres a nice one.
The DECs only had to sign a bond for 12 months of 12,000 usd yet the f/os on the same courses exactly signed for 3 years and 36,000 usd.
To me this would make the costing of it all baseless even in a local court.
Any ideas......
The DECs only had to sign a bond for 12 months of 12,000 usd yet the f/os on the same courses exactly signed for 3 years and 36,000 usd.
To me this would make the costing of it all baseless even in a local court.
Any ideas......
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TA,
That simply is not correct for some of the DEC's. Many ARE fully bonded for the USD 36000 and 3 years.
That aside, the contract is so full of loopholes now, especially with the changes made by AAR. I don't think a court of law (even in Dubai) would have any problem in saying the bond is null and void, whatever the amount.
It would only take one affirmative decision to establish a precedent with which EK would be most uncomfortable.
Time to take out that legal insurance ?
That simply is not correct for some of the DEC's. Many ARE fully bonded for the USD 36000 and 3 years.
That aside, the contract is so full of loopholes now, especially with the changes made by AAR. I don't think a court of law (even in Dubai) would have any problem in saying the bond is null and void, whatever the amount.
It would only take one affirmative decision to establish a precedent with which EK would be most uncomfortable.
Time to take out that legal insurance ?
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Guys,
You are all forgetting,the whole issue was COST NEUTRAL,you fools,there is nothing to moan about,DECs,FTLs,pay,its all cost neutral.
Anyone,who does not take the legal insurance cover on offer,right now via EPC,is an even bigger fool.
Off to the pub.QB
You are all forgetting,the whole issue was COST NEUTRAL,you fools,there is nothing to moan about,DECs,FTLs,pay,its all cost neutral.
Anyone,who does not take the legal insurance cover on offer,right now via EPC,is an even bigger fool.
Off to the pub.QB
I think QB is refering to the following.
A recent change to our pay, where we no longer get paid for leave, reserve, sim training, ground training, and have no min garantee for short sectors, was sold to us on the determination that it would be cost neutral.
Seems even the discount on boose via the EPC could not let us understand this one!!!
The legal thing is something that is new for our pilot group
Don
A recent change to our pay, where we no longer get paid for leave, reserve, sim training, ground training, and have no min garantee for short sectors, was sold to us on the determination that it would be cost neutral.
Seems even the discount on boose via the EPC could not let us understand this one!!!
The legal thing is something that is new for our pilot group
Don