Emirates Pilot Meeting
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It's still one of the few airlines in this neck of the woods that offer staff a share in the profits..........hopefully looking forward to 12 weeks bonus to blow in scarlets this year.
Not perfect by any stretch, but still MUCH better than a good many!
Not perfect by any stretch, but still MUCH better than a good many!
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Guys dont get dragged in to comments made by 411A. Simply relegate him to your ignore list. He is not worth the time and effort with his negative and inflammatory comments which in no
way provide any solutions to the situation at hand. If ever we needed a survey Pprune Towers should run one on who would like 411A banned from contributing to this site.
way provide any solutions to the situation at hand. If ever we needed a survey Pprune Towers should run one on who would like 411A banned from contributing to this site.
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Thats been tried before as well dunerider, and it got nowhere.
However, will be traveling extensively shortly, so may have to give this site a miss for a short while...expect you'll be pleased.
New guys to the middle east are learning a bitter lesson...all is not what it appears to be, from afar.
Will EK management see the 'error of their ways', as some here would indicate the problem is now?
Not very likely, if past history from that part of the world is any indication.
Some would say that...'we have great depth of experience with our pilots, no need to hire Commanders from outside.
Great depth allright...of deep doggie do-do.
Other middle east airlines have been at the game a lot longer, and quite frankly, have paid more...sometimes a lot more salary and benefits, than EK does now.
EK apparently pays TCN wages, and really nothing more.
Meanwhile, the living costs just keep going up, likewise with school fees.
No wonder management is having difficulty in finding DE guys...but hey, put the salary up a bit...and folks will start to trickle in, but certainly no flood.
The flood was the guys that believed the so called BS in the first place.
Suckers...
However, will be traveling extensively shortly, so may have to give this site a miss for a short while...expect you'll be pleased.
New guys to the middle east are learning a bitter lesson...all is not what it appears to be, from afar.
Will EK management see the 'error of their ways', as some here would indicate the problem is now?
Not very likely, if past history from that part of the world is any indication.
Some would say that...'we have great depth of experience with our pilots, no need to hire Commanders from outside.
Great depth allright...of deep doggie do-do.
Other middle east airlines have been at the game a lot longer, and quite frankly, have paid more...sometimes a lot more salary and benefits, than EK does now.
EK apparently pays TCN wages, and really nothing more.
Meanwhile, the living costs just keep going up, likewise with school fees.
No wonder management is having difficulty in finding DE guys...but hey, put the salary up a bit...and folks will start to trickle in, but certainly no flood.
The flood was the guys that believed the so called BS in the first place.
Suckers...
Last edited by 411A; 11th Mar 2004 at 13:49.
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There are two possibilities: either the thread is petering out until a new piece of news re-ignites feelings or you are allowing the I told you so's of one person to deflect the entire thread and the information provided for outsiders.
If it is the latter you deserve everything you get. An elderly, superannuated, mercenary aviator who has never had anything any of you would regard as a career is making you look stupid.
411A is the troll's troll. Nothing more, nothing less. Write for those coming up the ladder and not those left behind.
Rob
If it is the latter you deserve everything you get. An elderly, superannuated, mercenary aviator who has never had anything any of you would regard as a career is making you look stupid.
411A is the troll's troll. Nothing more, nothing less. Write for those coming up the ladder and not those left behind.
Rob
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White Knight Well I guess as you did not go to EK for the money then you have not been disappointed!!
I can quite understand how outsiders pointing out the huge mistake that a lot have made by joining EK does tend to rub salt in the wound.
In your case I believe that you were a 146 driver in the UK so the world was not exactly your oyster was it?? Also I believe you had the choice of being demoted to F/O or moving to Birmingham. Is that correct??
If so then you are clearly in the " beggars cannot be choosers" category so I can well understand your motives for joining EK and for still maintaining the " faith" You don't really have much choice do you?
I can quite understand how outsiders pointing out the huge mistake that a lot have made by joining EK does tend to rub salt in the wound.
In your case I believe that you were a 146 driver in the UK so the world was not exactly your oyster was it?? Also I believe you had the choice of being demoted to F/O or moving to Birmingham. Is that correct??
If so then you are clearly in the " beggars cannot be choosers" category so I can well understand your motives for joining EK and for still maintaining the " faith" You don't really have much choice do you?
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Certainly the last meeting I will ever attend. Furthermore, fly to rule! Nothing more!! Days Off are exactly that and going into commanders discretion is something of the past! Remember, it's commanders discretion and not anyone else's.
Check 'Six'
Check 'Six'
Moderate, Modest & Mild.
In fact 411A, 3 or 4 engines, the number is really irrelevant.
It seems less than purely co-incidental that the apparent tack taken by EK management is absolutely no different to that which many of your fellow pilots are having shoved onto their plates everywhere else around the globe.
That management worldwide are carrying out a concerted campaign to have airline pilots pidgeon holed alongside bus/train/tram drivers is glaringly obvious.
An early post on this thread stating managements' attitude towards pilots, was reminiscent of a quip by the dead Sir Peter Abeles of Ansett Australia, during the 1989 Pilots' Dispute, which paraphrased was something like, "You pilots are the same as all the other employees and don't deserve any extra consideration (of your claims)"
And so began the "same as all the other employees" 0900-1700 work campaign.
Back to the present, and this mindset of todays' managers has convinced me that resistance is futile.
I now fly at the flight planned level (because the person preparing the flight plan is FAR more qualified than I)
I take the flight planned fuel (no more - no less)
I taxi at, or below, the max taxi speeds - because I have seen an accident report that attributed part of the cause of a taxi-ing accident being due to the crew taxi-ing 1 knot above the max
I am a bus driver. Except of course upper atmospheric conditions change on a regular basis.
But I am not employed for my knowledge and experience any more - I am simply (in their restricted thinking) a necessary bum in a seat!
Black is black...white is white.
Shades of grey will cost you more.
Once the airline to aspire to, Emirates looks like it has sunk back to the "sand diggers" levels of Lawrence of Arabia days.
There'll be plenty of the 411A's who'll drive your ships of the desert for you at cheep cheep rates, because (like 411A) they can't qualfy for a position with First World companies!!
It seems less than purely co-incidental that the apparent tack taken by EK management is absolutely no different to that which many of your fellow pilots are having shoved onto their plates everywhere else around the globe.
That management worldwide are carrying out a concerted campaign to have airline pilots pidgeon holed alongside bus/train/tram drivers is glaringly obvious.
An early post on this thread stating managements' attitude towards pilots, was reminiscent of a quip by the dead Sir Peter Abeles of Ansett Australia, during the 1989 Pilots' Dispute, which paraphrased was something like, "You pilots are the same as all the other employees and don't deserve any extra consideration (of your claims)"
And so began the "same as all the other employees" 0900-1700 work campaign.
Back to the present, and this mindset of todays' managers has convinced me that resistance is futile.
I now fly at the flight planned level (because the person preparing the flight plan is FAR more qualified than I)
I take the flight planned fuel (no more - no less)
I taxi at, or below, the max taxi speeds - because I have seen an accident report that attributed part of the cause of a taxi-ing accident being due to the crew taxi-ing 1 knot above the max
I am a bus driver. Except of course upper atmospheric conditions change on a regular basis.
But I am not employed for my knowledge and experience any more - I am simply (in their restricted thinking) a necessary bum in a seat!
Black is black...white is white.
Shades of grey will cost you more.
Once the airline to aspire to, Emirates looks like it has sunk back to the "sand diggers" levels of Lawrence of Arabia days.
There'll be plenty of the 411A's who'll drive your ships of the desert for you at cheep cheep rates, because (like 411A) they can't qualfy for a position with First World companies!!
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Who's to say that you are not being mislead now. One has to remember that this is just a place where someone can write whatever they want for whatever reasons they want. Not everything you read here is truth, although some of it is. You have to decide what is and come up with your own conclusions. But don't be surprised if your conclusions are serving someone elsed agenda.
Not everthing is as it seems,
Crazy.
Not everthing is as it seems,
Crazy.
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Gentlemen, ladies. I have been following this thread for a long time as I am coming out to Dubai soon. It was my choice to leave a good command in Europe and come out as an F/O, so what I get into is my choice. Many people around the world have different views about how flying is or should be, and what is proper. 411A is one of those guys who comes from the States and his knowledge and understanding of the Middle East and the International Aviation, is probably on the same level as their President's understanding of the issues in the ME. I am sure his attention span is probably on par there as well. When I look at a man who claims to have flown for the biggest and the best during the good old days and is bitter and twisted in his views I see a fustrated guy, a little man with no character and definetely no professionalism. I am sure he never achieved his goals, he never encouraged others and rather than being able to provide the new generation of pilots with wisdom and chalanges he sits on his chair and says "The good old days are gone". I say the good days are here and what we make of them. It is up to all of us to make them as good or as bad as we like, and not 411A or Emirates management can take that away from us.
Management these days see only numers in the small picture, it is up to us to show them the big picture. We are the privileged ones to have the view from up high and not in the office, so we need to tell them the truth as it is and not as they see it
Management these days see only numers in the small picture, it is up to us to show them the big picture. We are the privileged ones to have the view from up high and not in the office, so we need to tell them the truth as it is and not as they see it
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Hidden Agendas?
Yes, Pprune is the only way to express yourself in an enviroment where representation is non existant!
At this recent meeting, many of us expressed our concerns and frustrations to our management. As to what transpires next, remains to be seen.
To those of you who want to come out here and work, welcome. I only hope YOU dont regret it, as the years go by in this place. To the sceptics, and conspiracy theorists of hidden agendas, that is your opinion and are fully entitled to it, whether you are employed here or not!! You will soon find out what your worth is?!?
All I can say from having spent many years here, that the majority of the views expressed are correct!! Have fun deciding!!
Things will in my opinion get worse, before they improve. If we all look at our careers as airline pilots over the many years, who can honestly say, that this career has actually improved?
Check 'Six'
At this recent meeting, many of us expressed our concerns and frustrations to our management. As to what transpires next, remains to be seen.
To those of you who want to come out here and work, welcome. I only hope YOU dont regret it, as the years go by in this place. To the sceptics, and conspiracy theorists of hidden agendas, that is your opinion and are fully entitled to it, whether you are employed here or not!! You will soon find out what your worth is?!?
All I can say from having spent many years here, that the majority of the views expressed are correct!! Have fun deciding!!
Things will in my opinion get worse, before they improve. If we all look at our careers as airline pilots over the many years, who can honestly say, that this career has actually improved?
Check 'Six'
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And so began the "same as all the other employees" 0900-1700 work campaign.
I can't help with the decision other than to say the sentiment expressed here (with the exception of one or two imbeciles) is heartfelt. Or the thread would've withered and died long ago.
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I really don't think that this or any other forum is your only representation. From what it says on this thread and others, the pilots do have representation. They represent themselves when they talk directly to the management (this thread is talking about the pilots meeting.) The problem seems to come from the fact that the management is not willing to listen to the pilots about the problems and concerns that they have and there is no way for the pilots to apply any sort of pressure to make them listen. I can't see the laws in the middle east changing for a long time so the ability to apply pressure is not going to come. By the way those who are thinking of moving your families to the middle east keep that in mind. Things may be acceptable for you now but it appears that you have no way of insuring they stay that way.
So what can the Emirates pilots do? It looks like nothing. A big nothing. Talk of boycott is not the answer. By doing that you just take away the "only" true representation that you have. Perserverance is the key. Keep it up. Keep representing yourselves at those meetings. Keep telling them those problems and maybe some of them will get solved. The management must know the concerns are real and not just something that you thought of on the way to the meeting. There will not be a winfall all of a sudden, it will take a long time to get any sort of concession.
And always remember the management will reap what they sow. If they make to much of a mess, not only the pilots will suffer but the whole airline.
Crazy.
So what can the Emirates pilots do? It looks like nothing. A big nothing. Talk of boycott is not the answer. By doing that you just take away the "only" true representation that you have. Perserverance is the key. Keep it up. Keep representing yourselves at those meetings. Keep telling them those problems and maybe some of them will get solved. The management must know the concerns are real and not just something that you thought of on the way to the meeting. There will not be a winfall all of a sudden, it will take a long time to get any sort of concession.
And always remember the management will reap what they sow. If they make to much of a mess, not only the pilots will suffer but the whole airline.
Crazy.
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Not a big fan of 411A but in this case I do agree with most of what both he and Millerscourt have said on this subject.
Having come to EK during what could be considered the "better" times I have continued to see the terms and conditions deteriorate over the past number of years as costs continue to rise in DXB. I guess we all make the decision to work offshore for different reasons. I came here for one primary reason and it isn't the +42 degrees in July. I came here primarily for the money combined to a lesser degree with the lifestyle I knew would be reasonable in Dubai. I have not been disappointed in DXB from a lifestyle point of view (with the exception of the driving) but certainly from a money point of view things have not progressed as I hoped they would.
There appears to be no end in sight given our current management's lack of respect towards the pilots and an unwillingness to even acknowledge there is a problem. Of course this is somewhat of a world wide phenomena but given the lack of any form of unions or pilot representation within EK I feel we are in a much more precarious position than those at most other carriers. The parallels to Gulf Air in the 80's are uncomfortably similar.
I think the bottom line to those that are either currently coming to EK or those that are thinking of doing so as First Officers (doesn't apply to DEC's as the deal they are getting is quite reasonable) is to look very carefully at your current career. As I alluded to in another thread on EK commands
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthr...hreadid=120925
I think there is a very real possibility that in the near future there will be no further upgrades from within EK (or at the very best, you are looking at many, many years to get to the left seat). You have to ask yourself whether you can afford to:
a) live on the current F/O wages and conditions in DXB for the rest of your career at EK (because it does not appear there is any impetus within the EK management to improve the money), and/or
b) allow your career to stagnate should this occur given the only other alternative would be to again uproot and try to find a new job that provides a future command.
I'm not saying come or don't come; just saying have a very close look at it. I would suggest for those with families that have school age children (education costs are expected to increase another 20% very soon and there is a good chance this will not be covered by EK) I feel it is an incredible gamble on your family’s financial future to come to EK given what my "crystal ball" shows might happen. I really hope I'm wrong, not only for those that might be coming but more importantly for those that are currently here waiting for the command. The last thing I would want anyone to do is come to EK unprepared for the worst (unlike our EVP Eng & Operations who apparently at the meeting formally requested inside information about EK NOT be released to Pprune, thereby not allowing individuals to make educated decisions), blinded by the shiny airplanes and the beaches, and then be stuck in the right seat for the rest of their careers wondering why the hell they made the move. There is a tremendous amount of information on Emirates on this website now to do with this subject; certainly enough to help each individual make a knowledge decision.
Having come to EK during what could be considered the "better" times I have continued to see the terms and conditions deteriorate over the past number of years as costs continue to rise in DXB. I guess we all make the decision to work offshore for different reasons. I came here for one primary reason and it isn't the +42 degrees in July. I came here primarily for the money combined to a lesser degree with the lifestyle I knew would be reasonable in Dubai. I have not been disappointed in DXB from a lifestyle point of view (with the exception of the driving) but certainly from a money point of view things have not progressed as I hoped they would.
There appears to be no end in sight given our current management's lack of respect towards the pilots and an unwillingness to even acknowledge there is a problem. Of course this is somewhat of a world wide phenomena but given the lack of any form of unions or pilot representation within EK I feel we are in a much more precarious position than those at most other carriers. The parallels to Gulf Air in the 80's are uncomfortably similar.
I think the bottom line to those that are either currently coming to EK or those that are thinking of doing so as First Officers (doesn't apply to DEC's as the deal they are getting is quite reasonable) is to look very carefully at your current career. As I alluded to in another thread on EK commands
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthr...hreadid=120925
I think there is a very real possibility that in the near future there will be no further upgrades from within EK (or at the very best, you are looking at many, many years to get to the left seat). You have to ask yourself whether you can afford to:
a) live on the current F/O wages and conditions in DXB for the rest of your career at EK (because it does not appear there is any impetus within the EK management to improve the money), and/or
b) allow your career to stagnate should this occur given the only other alternative would be to again uproot and try to find a new job that provides a future command.
I'm not saying come or don't come; just saying have a very close look at it. I would suggest for those with families that have school age children (education costs are expected to increase another 20% very soon and there is a good chance this will not be covered by EK) I feel it is an incredible gamble on your family’s financial future to come to EK given what my "crystal ball" shows might happen. I really hope I'm wrong, not only for those that might be coming but more importantly for those that are currently here waiting for the command. The last thing I would want anyone to do is come to EK unprepared for the worst (unlike our EVP Eng & Operations who apparently at the meeting formally requested inside information about EK NOT be released to Pprune, thereby not allowing individuals to make educated decisions), blinded by the shiny airplanes and the beaches, and then be stuck in the right seat for the rest of their careers wondering why the hell they made the move. There is a tremendous amount of information on Emirates on this website now to do with this subject; certainly enough to help each individual make a knowledge decision.
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Dune, Hello
I agree with you that no place is full of roses, pleasure and games. I have been with my outfit for the last 10 years, and although things have not changed towards the worse, they have definetely not changed towards the better. When one lives in his own country it is easy not to see the erosion of terms and conditions. The new boys and girls coming in to our company do not have a final salary pension, nor has the increase in salary matched the UK Govt inflation rate index. I live home though, so alot of things are not seen scrutinized in depth as we all have our little world outside the airline. There is no greater expectation in living in your own country than the whole general population. Expat life is different, it is not about being home, it is about various things for various people. I had the opportunity to live with my parents in SE Asia as my father worked for Her Majesty's government and I got a taste of the ups and downs of being away. It is not for everyone and it definetely is not for those of us who are less tolerant of local customs and ways. Emirates is no different to any other airline in the world. Cathey, Singapore, but even the big Flag carrier crowds like BA and Quantas are not what they used to be. At present I think the terms and conditions will not improve until the market improves. Aviation had been without major colapses or layoffs in the States during the ninetees and therefore pilots from that region were not looking for expat jobs. Until the market picks up, and they go back to their Airlines, the pressure is on us and not on management. History has proven that things will get better again, and the cycle will go on.
Emirates will be a longterm place for a few, for others a medium term, and for others an opportunity to get something and leave for greaner pastures when the Market picks up.
All I say is, "Attitude" is what we must change to remain happy in our jobs
Good Luck to us all
I agree with you that no place is full of roses, pleasure and games. I have been with my outfit for the last 10 years, and although things have not changed towards the worse, they have definetely not changed towards the better. When one lives in his own country it is easy not to see the erosion of terms and conditions. The new boys and girls coming in to our company do not have a final salary pension, nor has the increase in salary matched the UK Govt inflation rate index. I live home though, so alot of things are not seen scrutinized in depth as we all have our little world outside the airline. There is no greater expectation in living in your own country than the whole general population. Expat life is different, it is not about being home, it is about various things for various people. I had the opportunity to live with my parents in SE Asia as my father worked for Her Majesty's government and I got a taste of the ups and downs of being away. It is not for everyone and it definetely is not for those of us who are less tolerant of local customs and ways. Emirates is no different to any other airline in the world. Cathey, Singapore, but even the big Flag carrier crowds like BA and Quantas are not what they used to be. At present I think the terms and conditions will not improve until the market improves. Aviation had been without major colapses or layoffs in the States during the ninetees and therefore pilots from that region were not looking for expat jobs. Until the market picks up, and they go back to their Airlines, the pressure is on us and not on management. History has proven that things will get better again, and the cycle will go on.
Emirates will be a longterm place for a few, for others a medium term, and for others an opportunity to get something and leave for greaner pastures when the Market picks up.
All I say is, "Attitude" is what we must change to remain happy in our jobs
Good Luck to us all
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Hello Skyslave,
Sounds like at least you've done your homework and you know what you are potentially getting yourself into. Certainly those joining now (with all the information available on Pprune) won't have any excuses to complain in the future should they never be offered a command.
Not knowing your background it is really not my place to comment but since you mentioned previously you are leaving a good command in Europe to come to EK as an F/O, could I ask why you would possibly want to come to EK as an F/O instead of staying at your current company and acquiring the necessary hours to apply to EK as a DEC? Certainly I think if I was in such a position that is what I would do.
Sounds like at least you've done your homework and you know what you are potentially getting yourself into. Certainly those joining now (with all the information available on Pprune) won't have any excuses to complain in the future should they never be offered a command.
Not knowing your background it is really not my place to comment but since you mentioned previously you are leaving a good command in Europe to come to EK as an F/O, could I ask why you would possibly want to come to EK as an F/O instead of staying at your current company and acquiring the necessary hours to apply to EK as a DEC? Certainly I think if I was in such a position that is what I would do.
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Dune hello again,
My situation is a little bit different. My wife lived in Dubai for many years with her parents and she has good friends and memories back there, and I am in a position to come back to the UK should it not be what we want. As far as not waiting for the hours, it would be another three years waiting, not for the Command time but for the Total time so, we decided to take it now and wait and see how it all pans out. No guarantees that Emirates will be taking DEC in three years time
My situation is a little bit different. My wife lived in Dubai for many years with her parents and she has good friends and memories back there, and I am in a position to come back to the UK should it not be what we want. As far as not waiting for the hours, it would be another three years waiting, not for the Command time but for the Total time so, we decided to take it now and wait and see how it all pans out. No guarantees that Emirates will be taking DEC in three years time
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no worries slave, EK will hire DEC for a long time to save a few bucks.
if you are a EK F/O with a seniority number higher than 850 dont expect an upgrade before 2012 (unless EK orders more airplanes).
if you are a EK F/O with a seniority number higher than 850 dont expect an upgrade before 2012 (unless EK orders more airplanes).
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Have the EK pilots accepted their "fate"?
Rolled over and died?
I would've thought this thread would at least reach an even HUNDRED posts........
Is the talk of a healthy profit share lifting spirits?
Rolled over and died?
I would've thought this thread would at least reach an even HUNDRED posts........
Is the talk of a healthy profit share lifting spirits?