Emirates Pilot Meeting
Join Date: Apr 2003
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O.O.T.B. Just to clarify - the Training Captains aren't actually leaving the company (at least not that I have heard of) but are "only" resigning from training, for the reasons outlined above. A somewhat unusual situation in any airline, especially a major international one.
Join Date: Mar 2004
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I would say resigning Training Captains are a common problem for every expanding company. Even not expanding but also A/C changing Airlines tend to have that due bad management planning.
If management plan the "Big Picture" first, the trainers have to fit in to meet the schedule. If first (management outlined) priority is cost saving, they do that.
Forgetting that unhappy TC:s will indeed be very costly in longer term.
DD
If management plan the "Big Picture" first, the trainers have to fit in to meet the schedule. If first (management outlined) priority is cost saving, they do that.
Forgetting that unhappy TC:s will indeed be very costly in longer term.
DD
Join Date: Aug 2000
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Slight change of subject!!
Flight International (24/2 – 1/3)
Emirates president Tim Clark has a long term vision for the industry that could eliminate this time zone problem. He believes that the next generation of long range airliners, such as the proposed A380 could be equipped with the ultimate crew rest facilities, including showers, enabling pilots to operate the aircraft using a shift pattern similar to a ship’s roster.
“Crews could operate ultra-long haul flights to a 4h-on/4hoff pattern and when they get to the destination, they’d turn around and fly back without need to acclimatize to different time zones” he says.
And Clark has a simple solution to winning the pilots over to his plan: “The saving generated by not having to put crews up would be given back to them in their pay packet” he says.
Nice idea! From what I’ve read here, pilots in Emirates are not being dealt a fair deal, I hope it changes for the better. And before anybody asks, I don’t work for Emirates but have just turned down a DEC due to T & C’s and from what I heard from several friends already working for Emirates. If things were to improve, I would certainly re-apply but with quotes and empty promises from Clark like the above, it may be a ultra-long way away.
Good luck to you guys.
Flight International (24/2 – 1/3)
Emirates president Tim Clark has a long term vision for the industry that could eliminate this time zone problem. He believes that the next generation of long range airliners, such as the proposed A380 could be equipped with the ultimate crew rest facilities, including showers, enabling pilots to operate the aircraft using a shift pattern similar to a ship’s roster.
“Crews could operate ultra-long haul flights to a 4h-on/4hoff pattern and when they get to the destination, they’d turn around and fly back without need to acclimatize to different time zones” he says.
And Clark has a simple solution to winning the pilots over to his plan: “The saving generated by not having to put crews up would be given back to them in their pay packet” he says.
Nice idea! From what I’ve read here, pilots in Emirates are not being dealt a fair deal, I hope it changes for the better. And before anybody asks, I don’t work for Emirates but have just turned down a DEC due to T & C’s and from what I heard from several friends already working for Emirates. If things were to improve, I would certainly re-apply but with quotes and empty promises from Clark like the above, it may be a ultra-long way away.
Good luck to you guys.
Join Date: Mar 2000
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Rest?
Whatever for?
Have personally done many twelve hour sectors with one crew, no rest.
One wonders, when the whingers applied to the company, they asked for work, yes?
Or, were they expecting something else?
Whatever for?
Have personally done many twelve hour sectors with one crew, no rest.
One wonders, when the whingers applied to the company, they asked for work, yes?
Or, were they expecting something else?
Join Date: Sep 2000
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411A(rsehole),
I certinly hope you're having a go at the general public posting here. 'cause if you're NOT, then for sure you have LOST YOUR MARBLES! What a CR@P statement (again).
To everyone else,
Every time I walk into EK briefing I see pilots with huge bags and black rings under their eyes, pale skin, lacking energy and motivation. That's what fatigue does to you.
But hey, we're a bunch of lazy guys, so all of the above could of course be from spending all that "free time" we have at Scarlet's!
I certinly hope you're having a go at the general public posting here. 'cause if you're NOT, then for sure you have LOST YOUR MARBLES! What a CR@P statement (again).
To everyone else,
Every time I walk into EK briefing I see pilots with huge bags and black rings under their eyes, pale skin, lacking energy and motivation. That's what fatigue does to you.
But hey, we're a bunch of lazy guys, so all of the above could of course be from spending all that "free time" we have at Scarlet's!
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411 Good to see you back, how was re-hab?
I am sure you did many 12 hour sectors with no rest, but does that make it acceptable? Were you on top of your game for the final approach? Just because something was put up with in the old days doesn't make it safe.
I am sure you did many 12 hour sectors with no rest, but does that make it acceptable? Were you on top of your game for the final approach? Just because something was put up with in the old days doesn't make it safe.
Join Date: Feb 2003
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Hey guys,
for sure the problems you guys are facing are very real and not to be dealt with lightly but if any of you want to change places with me PLSE PLSE send me a PM!!!!!(same A/C, same routes)
I ll come over right away!
for sure the problems you guys are facing are very real and not to be dealt with lightly but if any of you want to change places with me PLSE PLSE send me a PM!!!!!(same A/C, same routes)
I ll come over right away!
Join Date: Dec 2003
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W2K
And there I was thinking that you had pale skin, bags under the eyes because of the hours spent drinking and shagging!!
You're not the only sector in EK suffering though which adds further to the worries. It seems to be pretty sterotypical of the rest of the group.
Will anyone have the balls to bring it up in front of GMD (or whatever he is now!) and HH in the financial review meeting in the Q&A session?
And there I was thinking that you had pale skin, bags under the eyes because of the hours spent drinking and shagging!!
You're not the only sector in EK suffering though which adds further to the worries. It seems to be pretty sterotypical of the rest of the group.
Will anyone have the balls to bring it up in front of GMD (or whatever he is now!) and HH in the financial review meeting in the Q&A session?
Join Date: Mar 2000
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My, my, my...
We do seem to have a few here (maybe more that a few) who, having become so coddled in their companies now, when the company asks them to actually do a bit of longhaul flying work, they seem to have run out of starch.
Would expect that if the company offered overtime or other incentive pay for longhaul ops, the line at the Chief Pilots office would be fifty yards long wanting a piece of the action.
Oh boo hoo...
We do seem to have a few here (maybe more that a few) who, having become so coddled in their companies now, when the company asks them to actually do a bit of longhaul flying work, they seem to have run out of starch.
Would expect that if the company offered overtime or other incentive pay for longhaul ops, the line at the Chief Pilots office would be fifty yards long wanting a piece of the action.
Oh boo hoo...
Join Date: Mar 2000
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Been tried before Trimotor, with no success whatsoever.
Some pilots like nothing better than to complain.
If it isn't the pay, it's the working conditions, or crappy management...even the hosties aren't friendly.
Gee, what a surprise...it's a business, not a pleasure palace.
You gain experience, then apply to a larger carrier flying nice shiney new jet aircraft...and presto, some feel that they are now experts in airline management, rest requirements, and recruitment policy
Now, what EK needs to do is raise the pay slightly (or...more than slightly), and the complaints would disappear like frost off new mown grass.
Maybe throw a few upgrade logs on the fire as well.
What I suspect they will do is...keep the malcontents in the RH seat where they belong (until they learn how not to complain) and hire new experienced longhaul types, at higher pay to carry the load that the present guys are unsatisfied with.
'Tis called MiddleEast policy, and has been the same since God made little green apples.
And, it ain't gonna change anytime soon.
Just the way it IS.
New(er) guys learn slightly slower these days, it would appear.
Some pilots like nothing better than to complain.
If it isn't the pay, it's the working conditions, or crappy management...even the hosties aren't friendly.
Gee, what a surprise...it's a business, not a pleasure palace.
You gain experience, then apply to a larger carrier flying nice shiney new jet aircraft...and presto, some feel that they are now experts in airline management, rest requirements, and recruitment policy
Now, what EK needs to do is raise the pay slightly (or...more than slightly), and the complaints would disappear like frost off new mown grass.
Maybe throw a few upgrade logs on the fire as well.
What I suspect they will do is...keep the malcontents in the RH seat where they belong (until they learn how not to complain) and hire new experienced longhaul types, at higher pay to carry the load that the present guys are unsatisfied with.
'Tis called MiddleEast policy, and has been the same since God made little green apples.
And, it ain't gonna change anytime soon.
Just the way it IS.
New(er) guys learn slightly slower these days, it would appear.
Moderate, Modest & Mild.
411A,"Have personally done many twelve hour sectors with one crew, no rest."
According to you, 411A, you also admitted to taking off in a 4-engined aircraft with 1 engine unable to deliver full thrust (whilst other "less brave" pilots than you refused!!), and in need of maintenance.
Aviation has never really recovered since you retired
Ever stopped to ask yourself why no airline would employ you in the USA? Your country of citizenship.
"New(er) guys learn slightly slower these days, it would appear." - but they're a LOT smarter than you EVER were!!
According to you, 411A, you also admitted to taking off in a 4-engined aircraft with 1 engine unable to deliver full thrust (whilst other "less brave" pilots than you refused!!), and in need of maintenance.
Aviation has never really recovered since you retired
Ever stopped to ask yourself why no airline would employ you in the USA? Your country of citizenship.
"New(er) guys learn slightly slower these days, it would appear." - but they're a LOT smarter than you EVER were!!
Join Date: Jun 2000
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Emirates is a take-the-money-and-run (albeit not a whole lot of money) place. The overall package is decent, but the retirement benefits are very poor. Do you really expect to be able to retire on a measly 12% of what they are actually paying? More importantly, do you really expect to stay long enough to reap the meager benefits of that retiremnet plan?
Emirates has an artificial market. People don´t naturally want to, or have to, travel to or through Dubai. The moment some delusional, self glorifying, religious fanatic decides to make the UAE a target, or somebody sets up another shiny, modern airline that provides equal or better service, the bubble at EK is going to burst. Duty free shopping or not.
However politically incorrect it is to say this: you will be working for arabs in an arab country, and their morals and ethics (personal and business) are nothing like yours. Their promises and contracts are worthless to a westerner.
Take a look at a map. See those three large countries surrounding the UAE? You know, the ones that have a history of violence, repression, war, revolution, torture and terrorism? Do you think they will leave tiny, wealthy, progressive (by arab standards) and western friendly Dubai & Co alone for the duration of your career? Are you willing to bet your family´s welfare on it?
If you´re young and single, if you want a couple of years worth of heavy time, if you´re out of a job or facing a furlough, by all means go for it and enjoy it while it lasts. If you have a fall back plan, if you´re already secure and just doing this for the fun of it, if you are able to leave again on a moments notice should the sh*t hit the fan, go for it.
But uprooting your family, quiting your present reasonably secure job (as a captain, no less!), and mortgaging your future on a job and a place like this is lunacy.
Emirates has an artificial market. People don´t naturally want to, or have to, travel to or through Dubai. The moment some delusional, self glorifying, religious fanatic decides to make the UAE a target, or somebody sets up another shiny, modern airline that provides equal or better service, the bubble at EK is going to burst. Duty free shopping or not.
However politically incorrect it is to say this: you will be working for arabs in an arab country, and their morals and ethics (personal and business) are nothing like yours. Their promises and contracts are worthless to a westerner.
Take a look at a map. See those three large countries surrounding the UAE? You know, the ones that have a history of violence, repression, war, revolution, torture and terrorism? Do you think they will leave tiny, wealthy, progressive (by arab standards) and western friendly Dubai & Co alone for the duration of your career? Are you willing to bet your family´s welfare on it?
If you´re young and single, if you want a couple of years worth of heavy time, if you´re out of a job or facing a furlough, by all means go for it and enjoy it while it lasts. If you have a fall back plan, if you´re already secure and just doing this for the fun of it, if you are able to leave again on a moments notice should the sh*t hit the fan, go for it.
But uprooting your family, quiting your present reasonably secure job (as a captain, no less!), and mortgaging your future on a job and a place like this is lunacy.
Join Date: Mar 2000
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Very well put Bigmouth, 'tis very true, but I wonder, will anyone pay attention?
Nearly fell off my chair with laughter 18 months ago when those at EK came up with comments such as...job for life, only upgrade from within, fantastic management, lots of time off in 'paradise' Dubai.....on and on.
Those from the western world go to the middle east for generally two reasons...
advancement in career,
money.
Well guess what, the money ain't what it used to be, and 'advancement' is keeping your backside in whatever seat the company says you will, like it or not.
The pay scale for the middle east started to generally run downhill in the early nineties, because the locals just knew that some 'johney come lately' pilot would take the bait, buy into the idea, sell his house, quit his job...and move right in. Just dangle a shiney widebody jet in front of his nose, with visions of the left seat painted on for good measure...presto, instant Captains.
Well now the other shoe has dropped, and the guys now find the picture not quite as pretty.
Oddly enough, when EK was organized in the mid-eighties, about 60 guys from JED went for interviews, and all but one or two came back laughing their sox off.
Comments such as...'the devil you know is much better than the devil you don't', was the general consensus...and, 'the money is not up to par.'
True then...and now.
Gosh Kaptin M, your comments are so vague, you couldn't even get the number of engines right, never mind anything else.
Nearly fell off my chair with laughter 18 months ago when those at EK came up with comments such as...job for life, only upgrade from within, fantastic management, lots of time off in 'paradise' Dubai.....on and on.
Those from the western world go to the middle east for generally two reasons...
advancement in career,
money.
Well guess what, the money ain't what it used to be, and 'advancement' is keeping your backside in whatever seat the company says you will, like it or not.
The pay scale for the middle east started to generally run downhill in the early nineties, because the locals just knew that some 'johney come lately' pilot would take the bait, buy into the idea, sell his house, quit his job...and move right in. Just dangle a shiney widebody jet in front of his nose, with visions of the left seat painted on for good measure...presto, instant Captains.
Well now the other shoe has dropped, and the guys now find the picture not quite as pretty.
Oddly enough, when EK was organized in the mid-eighties, about 60 guys from JED went for interviews, and all but one or two came back laughing their sox off.
Comments such as...'the devil you know is much better than the devil you don't', was the general consensus...and, 'the money is not up to par.'
True then...and now.
Gosh Kaptin M, your comments are so vague, you couldn't even get the number of engines right, never mind anything else.
Join Date: Jul 2002
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411A You are quite correct in your assessment of Airline jobs in the Gulf/Middle East regettably. The T &C's are now so bad that those from the Western world should perhaps give it a miss unless for reasons quoted by Bigmouth.
White Knight I am all for people disagreeing with what others post but there is no need to resort to foul mouthed language as it demeans anything you have to say. By all means be sarcastic.ridicule, make fun of etc etc but keep your gutter language for any of your like minded "yobbo" friends
White Knight I am all for people disagreeing with what others post but there is no need to resort to foul mouthed language as it demeans anything you have to say. By all means be sarcastic.ridicule, make fun of etc etc but keep your gutter language for any of your like minded "yobbo" friends
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411a,
In this business, there are some pilots that do respect their profession, they stand for a safe flying environment for the flying public.... There is another bunch of leftovers from the industry, that will never help this world to move forward... I defended you in some forums....Maybe I made a mistake.....
The amount of respect a person gets from others is only as high as this person's self estime.....
You seem to think poorly of yourself.....figure out the rest.....
In this business, there are some pilots that do respect their profession, they stand for a safe flying environment for the flying public.... There is another bunch of leftovers from the industry, that will never help this world to move forward... I defended you in some forums....Maybe I made a mistake.....
The amount of respect a person gets from others is only as high as this person's self estime.....
You seem to think poorly of yourself.....figure out the rest.....
Join Date: Jul 2000
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MC old chum - I think the only thing that gets through to a wind up merchant like 411 is to be completely blunt. Regretable but I'm sure it gave my "yobbo" colleagues a good laugh.....
Bigmouth - I only see more and more tourists arriving, the place is heaving at the moment. From a personal point of view I love living in Dubai and the UAE, there's always so much to do.
Bigmouth - I only see more and more tourists arriving, the place is heaving at the moment. From a personal point of view I love living in Dubai and the UAE, there's always so much to do.
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Have to agree with comments about Dubai..........enjoying the place and all the options.
I can only imagine operating with a dinasour like 411, bitter old man with regrets probably responsible for the CRM courses that exist today. Thanks 411............
I would rather not insult but I think this is rightly deserved.
Things in the USA are far worse..............thousands still on furlough.
There is no perfect airline job.
Trying to make the best of it.
I can only imagine operating with a dinasour like 411, bitter old man with regrets probably responsible for the CRM courses that exist today. Thanks 411............
I would rather not insult but I think this is rightly deserved.
Things in the USA are far worse..............thousands still on furlough.
There is no perfect airline job.
Trying to make the best of it.
Join Date: Mar 2000
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Seems some still do not yet get the picture, millerscourt, still drawn in the big vacuum full of promises, such as EK.
And, they make it so easy for the EK management to step all over 'em...and this will continue i'm sure.
With the juvenile thinking/comments going on with the EK guys, one wonders...do they deserve to be Commanders?
And, they make it so easy for the EK management to step all over 'em...and this will continue i'm sure.
With the juvenile thinking/comments going on with the EK guys, one wonders...do they deserve to be Commanders?