Collective Colour Vision Thread 4
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My gut feeling, is that it's a money spinner for the CAA!! Afterall, they're getting £125.00 each time. They can afford to call the shots. If only there was away of exposing that! Cause as you say, it's supposed to be 100% accurate. The slate should be wiped clean each time!
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PAPI Test?
Hi All,
Does anyone know if the CAA conduct this test? It's mentioned in one of their papers from 2009.
"The recent UK Disability Discrimination Act (2004) has to a certain
extent exposed weaknesses in the current standards and procedures. Companies need to justify refusal to employ an applicant on the basis of his/her defective colour vision and this requires scientific evidence to demonstrate convincingly that the applicant will not be able to carry out necessary occupational tasks that involve colour vision with the accuracy and efficiency expected of normal trichromats. In view of these arguments, we have developed a PAPI simulator and a PAPI Signal Lights test that can be used under controlled laboratory conditions. The simulators reproduce both the photometric and the angular subtense of the real lights under demanding
viewing conditions when the lights are viewed against a dark background."
Thanks again.
Does anyone know if the CAA conduct this test? It's mentioned in one of their papers from 2009.
"The recent UK Disability Discrimination Act (2004) has to a certain
extent exposed weaknesses in the current standards and procedures. Companies need to justify refusal to employ an applicant on the basis of his/her defective colour vision and this requires scientific evidence to demonstrate convincingly that the applicant will not be able to carry out necessary occupational tasks that involve colour vision with the accuracy and efficiency expected of normal trichromats. In view of these arguments, we have developed a PAPI simulator and a PAPI Signal Lights test that can be used under controlled laboratory conditions. The simulators reproduce both the photometric and the angular subtense of the real lights under demanding
viewing conditions when the lights are viewed against a dark background."
Thanks again.
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Collective Colour Vision Thread 4
I remember reading this, it was stated that the Papi test was based in a row of horizontal lights. If red green and white and a high number of people passed, the test is at city uni. They said the test was the original concept for the cad, and its been argued that the Papi should be used instead as its relevant to aviation colour tasks
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So theoretically I could ask to sit the test at the City Uni and if I passed it, I could hand the results to the CAA with the said quote form their own papaer?
Thanks.
Thanks.
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whilst EASA made tiny steps forward in this matter, by allowing some CVD pilots to fly at night with the LAPL, Europe in general is still lagging behind in commercial flying.
Obtaining a class one with CVD in Europe is virtually impossible - ie no commercial flying except perhaps as a Flight Instructor. Only the UK issues restricted class one medical with CVD (no night, no commercial air transport) which is rather useless anyway.
The only country where common sense and empirical evidence has been prevailing, rather that ego and dogmas, is Australia: the freedom CVD pilots enjoy there is brilliant, more than 20 years of no accident history at all levels, from basic G/A all the way to LH seat on a heavy airliner. Also funny how there is NOT a single accident directly related to CVD in the world (if you think about the 727 accident in Thallhasse, think again!). Yet the CASA PMO is trying to wind the clock backward and basically withdrawn all the privileges CVD pilots have been enjoying, but fear not he will fail miserably very soon.
So, basically no much hope for changes in Europe anytime, not when EASA medical dept is chaired by UK or former UK CAA people as they are trying to have the CAD test implemented as new 'gold standard'. The only hope, or refuge even, is Australia...
Obtaining a class one with CVD in Europe is virtually impossible - ie no commercial flying except perhaps as a Flight Instructor. Only the UK issues restricted class one medical with CVD (no night, no commercial air transport) which is rather useless anyway.
The only country where common sense and empirical evidence has been prevailing, rather that ego and dogmas, is Australia: the freedom CVD pilots enjoy there is brilliant, more than 20 years of no accident history at all levels, from basic G/A all the way to LH seat on a heavy airliner. Also funny how there is NOT a single accident directly related to CVD in the world (if you think about the 727 accident in Thallhasse, think again!). Yet the CASA PMO is trying to wind the clock backward and basically withdrawn all the privileges CVD pilots have been enjoying, but fear not he will fail miserably very soon.
So, basically no much hope for changes in Europe anytime, not when EASA medical dept is chaired by UK or former UK CAA people as they are trying to have the CAD test implemented as new 'gold standard'. The only hope, or refuge even, is Australia...
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Great news!
John Obrien and the CVDPA have won the case against CASA !
John, a severely colour deficient DASH 8 copilot (protanope) who has been unable to pass any of the colour vision testing in Australia has won his right to exercise his ATPL qualifications and fly left seat as Captain.
Although the 1989 Denison test case ruling decided that deuteranopes posed no risk to aviation safety - CASA still forced us to undergo colour vision testing. A lot of us, even severe deuteranopes, passed the tower light gun test as it uses true aviation colours and not wavelengths on colour confusions lines for CVDs (like Ishihara, farnsworth, CAD and all the others). For 25 years we've flown without accident or incident passing all check flights and sim rides.
Those that failed that were not allowed to progress beyond copilot of airliners.
John was one of these poor critters but has now proven to a court that even protanopes pose no risk to safety.
For full details goto the Empre Strikes Back thread below:
http://www.pprune.org/pacific-genera...pilots-30.html
Woohoo!
John Obrien and the CVDPA have won the case against CASA !
John, a severely colour deficient DASH 8 copilot (protanope) who has been unable to pass any of the colour vision testing in Australia has won his right to exercise his ATPL qualifications and fly left seat as Captain.
Although the 1989 Denison test case ruling decided that deuteranopes posed no risk to aviation safety - CASA still forced us to undergo colour vision testing. A lot of us, even severe deuteranopes, passed the tower light gun test as it uses true aviation colours and not wavelengths on colour confusions lines for CVDs (like Ishihara, farnsworth, CAD and all the others). For 25 years we've flown without accident or incident passing all check flights and sim rides.
Those that failed that were not allowed to progress beyond copilot of airliners.
John was one of these poor critters but has now proven to a court that even protanopes pose no risk to safety.
For full details goto the Empre Strikes Back thread below:
http://www.pprune.org/pacific-genera...pilots-30.html
Woohoo!
Last edited by outofwhack; 23rd Feb 2015 at 07:50.
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Can anyone please confirm whether the CAD results at London City can be used at Gatwick?
i.e If you fail the Ishihara at Gatwick during a First Class med, you can then use your LC CAD results without sitting the CAD at Gatwick? Or are you required to take the CAD at Gatwick and the LC results are used to determine an average result?
Many thanks in advance!
i.e If you fail the Ishihara at Gatwick during a First Class med, you can then use your LC CAD results without sitting the CAD at Gatwick? Or are you required to take the CAD at Gatwick and the LC results are used to determine an average result?
Many thanks in advance!
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Hi short finals,
It doesn't really matter where or how many time you sit the CAD. If you fail the plates at Gatwick, then they will ask you if you want to sit the CAD. It's a lot more expensive to sit it there than at the Uni. Plus I found the screen they use at the Uni produced a clearer image that the one at Gatwick and for the price you pay at the Uni (It's a donation really) you get to sit all the colour vision tests that are currently available.
The only downside about the CAD results is that the CAA do average them. Roll on medical flight tests!!!
Good luck though!!
It doesn't really matter where or how many time you sit the CAD. If you fail the plates at Gatwick, then they will ask you if you want to sit the CAD. It's a lot more expensive to sit it there than at the Uni. Plus I found the screen they use at the Uni produced a clearer image that the one at Gatwick and for the price you pay at the Uni (It's a donation really) you get to sit all the colour vision tests that are currently available.
The only downside about the CAD results is that the CAA do average them. Roll on medical flight tests!!!
Good luck though!!
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RONTOM, thanks for that info, it is much appreciated. I've booked into London in May, so will know once and for all! If all goes well there, then I'm going to look into Gatwick.
Best of luck with your journey!
Best of luck with your journey!
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Hi Short Finals,
Best of luck, let us know how you get on either way.
Does anyone out there know or heard of any cases within the UK that have tried taking the CAA to a tribunal to challenge their colour testing ways. The only reason I'm asking is that I work for an oil company in Aberdeen and many of you may or may not have heard that with the decline in oil price and production a lot of people in the industry are facing or have been made redundant. Now, I've seen a fair amount of people challenging unfair dismissal and constructive dismissal and they have won their cases against their companies. Would winning a case against the CAA like what our friends in Oz have done be "doable" with the laws, policies and regulations we have in the UK. I didn't realise there was so many loop holes and people friendly procedures here in the UK to tackle unfairness. Just a thought folks, that could be rolled out in to something a lot bigger. I've been thinking long and hard about all of this over the past three weeks and I'm wandering wether or not to try and tackle the procedure and see if we can or not get to the same level Austrailia are at with CVD pilots.
Any thoughts on the matter are greatly appreciated!
Thanks!
Best of luck, let us know how you get on either way.
Does anyone out there know or heard of any cases within the UK that have tried taking the CAA to a tribunal to challenge their colour testing ways. The only reason I'm asking is that I work for an oil company in Aberdeen and many of you may or may not have heard that with the decline in oil price and production a lot of people in the industry are facing or have been made redundant. Now, I've seen a fair amount of people challenging unfair dismissal and constructive dismissal and they have won their cases against their companies. Would winning a case against the CAA like what our friends in Oz have done be "doable" with the laws, policies and regulations we have in the UK. I didn't realise there was so many loop holes and people friendly procedures here in the UK to tackle unfairness. Just a thought folks, that could be rolled out in to something a lot bigger. I've been thinking long and hard about all of this over the past three weeks and I'm wandering wether or not to try and tackle the procedure and see if we can or not get to the same level Austrailia are at with CVD pilots.
Any thoughts on the matter are greatly appreciated!
Thanks!
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Color vision test
Hi
1 Can a pilot in the USA go to an ophthalmologist to have a color visión test performed in order not to have that part of the med tests done by the AME for an FAA medical?
2 Can anyone point out the aceptable tests and allowed errors for example reading the plates currently in the USA?
Example Ishihara test, how many plates can you miss?
Thanks
1 Can a pilot in the USA go to an ophthalmologist to have a color visión test performed in order not to have that part of the med tests done by the AME for an FAA medical?
2 Can anyone point out the aceptable tests and allowed errors for example reading the plates currently in the USA?
Example Ishihara test, how many plates can you miss?
Thanks
Three fails allowed in Australia.
Make sure you read the cards in good natural daylight
Last time for me it was a heavily overcast day and by fluorescent light
- four fails. Came back the next day. Read them all in broad sunlight.
Three fails. But only one was one of the previous day's fails.
Then the eye bloke said that the test can be fairly arbitrary.
He also said it is virtually unknown for colour perception to change with the passage of years.
Incidentally, he said that CVD people were used in the Second World War
in photo intelligence as they could study the recce photos
and that their CVD enabled them to discern camouflaged buildings
that non CVD people could not.
Maybe the PPRuNe expert in this field field, Dr Arthur Pape can comment.
Make sure you read the cards in good natural daylight
Last time for me it was a heavily overcast day and by fluorescent light
- four fails. Came back the next day. Read them all in broad sunlight.
Three fails. But only one was one of the previous day's fails.
Then the eye bloke said that the test can be fairly arbitrary.
He also said it is virtually unknown for colour perception to change with the passage of years.
Incidentally, he said that CVD people were used in the Second World War
in photo intelligence as they could study the recce photos
and that their CVD enabled them to discern camouflaged buildings
that non CVD people could not.
Maybe the PPRuNe expert in this field field, Dr Arthur Pape can comment.
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FAA
An applicant does not meet the color vision standard if testing reveals:
A. All Classes
https://www.faa.gov/about/office_org...ch/item52/amd/
An applicant does not meet the color vision standard if testing reveals:
A. All Classes
- AOC (1965 edition) pseudoisochromatic plates: seven or more errors on plates 1-15.
- AOC-HRR (second edition): Any error in test plates 7-11. Because the first 4 plates in the test book are for demonstration only, test plate 7 is actually the eleventh plate in the book. (See instruction booklet.)
- Dvorine pseudoisochromatic plates (second edition, 15 plates): seven or more errors on plates 1-15.
- Ishihara pseudoisochromatic plates: Concise 14-plate edition: six or more errors on plates 1-11; the 24-plate edition: seven or more errors on plates 1-15; the 38-plate edition: nine or more errors on plates 1-21.
- Richmond (1983 edition) pseudoisochromatic plates: seven or more errors on plates 1-15.
- OPTEC 900 Vision tester and Farnsworth Lantern test: an average of more than one error per series of nine color pairs in series 2 and 3. (See instruction booklet.)
- Titmus Vision Tester, Titmus i400, OPTEC 2000 Vision Tester, Keystone Orthoscope, or Keystone View Telebinocular: any errors in the six plates.
- Richmond-HRR, 4th edition: two or more errors on plates 5-24. Plates 1-4 are for demonstration only; plates 5-10 are screening plates; and plates 11-24 are diagnostic plates
https://www.faa.gov/about/office_org...ch/item52/amd/
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Class 2 medical with VCL
Hello
I hope someone from this thread can help me.
I am writing from EASA member state Lithuania.
I have a CVD problem, failed Ishiara test and in 2006 I got class 2 medical with VCL restriction (flying only in daytime/VFR). It's a compromise, but I got used to flying only for fun, not commercially, and made a career elsewhere.
Now my national AME does not want to renew my class 2 medical with VCL and asks me to do Anamolascope testing. If I fail that test, I was told my class 2 medical could not be renewed even with VCL restriction. How can that be? I already was succesfully flying for 9years, with over 500 flying hours. She says that new EASA regulations are much more strict regarding colour vision when it was in 2006. Is that true?
Can I challenge this decision?
I found following EU regulation in EASA webpage
https://easa.europa.eu/document-libr...eu-no-11782011
MED.B.075 Colour vision
(d) In the case of Class 2 medical certificates, when the applicant does not have satisfactory perception of colours, his/her flying privileges shall be limited to daytime only.
If I understand correctly according this paragraph I should be given class 2medical with limited to daytime only if I fail all the color vision tests.
I can't see any logic doing any additional CVD testing, if even If I fail them all, I should get the same limitation I have now.
Closest Anamolscope test facility is over 5hours driving time away from me, these tests ain't cheap.
Can I get class 2 VCL medical license in UK, or any other EASA member state if I fail Ishiara plates and without any additional expensive CVD testing?
Regards
I hope someone from this thread can help me.
I am writing from EASA member state Lithuania.
I have a CVD problem, failed Ishiara test and in 2006 I got class 2 medical with VCL restriction (flying only in daytime/VFR). It's a compromise, but I got used to flying only for fun, not commercially, and made a career elsewhere.
Now my national AME does not want to renew my class 2 medical with VCL and asks me to do Anamolascope testing. If I fail that test, I was told my class 2 medical could not be renewed even with VCL restriction. How can that be? I already was succesfully flying for 9years, with over 500 flying hours. She says that new EASA regulations are much more strict regarding colour vision when it was in 2006. Is that true?
Can I challenge this decision?
I found following EU regulation in EASA webpage
https://easa.europa.eu/document-libr...eu-no-11782011
MED.B.075 Colour vision
(d) In the case of Class 2 medical certificates, when the applicant does not have satisfactory perception of colours, his/her flying privileges shall be limited to daytime only.
If I understand correctly according this paragraph I should be given class 2medical with limited to daytime only if I fail all the color vision tests.
I can't see any logic doing any additional CVD testing, if even If I fail them all, I should get the same limitation I have now.
Closest Anamolscope test facility is over 5hours driving time away from me, these tests ain't cheap.
Can I get class 2 VCL medical license in UK, or any other EASA member state if I fail Ishiara plates and without any additional expensive CVD testing?
Regards
Last edited by Asdrius; 16th Jun 2015 at 14:30. Reason: Added more information
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Nonsense Adrius your AME is wrong. Part MED.B is the document that is leading. So nothing has changed. Still valid for daylight only. Notify your AME about part med or go to another doc.
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I showed part med to chief AME in local CAA.
She thinks it's neccessary to do additonal anomaloscope testing even for VCL limitation. And she also quoted another local CAA document that AME can send to any additional examinations they think are neccessary.
She thinks it's neccessary to do additonal anomaloscope testing even for VCL limitation. And she also quoted another local CAA document that AME can send to any additional examinations they think are neccessary.
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Hi everyone,
i could use some help: I got my medical more than a decade ago after passing the Holmes-Wright Lantern Test at the UK CAA and now after several years of professional flying im looking into making the move to the middle east. The problem is that i expect to be colour tested again with the CAD Test, which afaik is now in use also in Europe, and im worried that a fail on this test will have implications for my EASA Medical. I never took his test so i have no idea how i will perform, i do however have quite some experience with colour testing and dealing with authorities regarding this issue and im really not in a mood to start another fight for my medical because i failed this CAD Test. Especially after now many years of safe professional flying.
Does anybody have any experience with this, passed lantern Test but failed CAD? At the EK Clinic, are they doing the test themselves or do they send you over to London for it? Any pointers where i can read up on this or who i might ask?
Any help greatly appreciated!!
i could use some help: I got my medical more than a decade ago after passing the Holmes-Wright Lantern Test at the UK CAA and now after several years of professional flying im looking into making the move to the middle east. The problem is that i expect to be colour tested again with the CAD Test, which afaik is now in use also in Europe, and im worried that a fail on this test will have implications for my EASA Medical. I never took his test so i have no idea how i will perform, i do however have quite some experience with colour testing and dealing with authorities regarding this issue and im really not in a mood to start another fight for my medical because i failed this CAD Test. Especially after now many years of safe professional flying.
Does anybody have any experience with this, passed lantern Test but failed CAD? At the EK Clinic, are they doing the test themselves or do they send you over to London for it? Any pointers where i can read up on this or who i might ask?
Any help greatly appreciated!!