Medical & HealthNews and debate about medical and health issues as they relate to aircrews and aviation. Any information gleaned from this forum MUST be backed up by consulting your state-registered health professional or AME.
I've posted a couple of times before, but basically I'm having the same experience most of you are. Failed Ishihara, failed Gatwick (H/W & Beynes, just 1 wrong each), been to City Uni for the full works etc etc... and been diagnosed as a very mild deuteranope.
I've also tried out the Chromagen lenses. Could I then pass Ishihara? Easily. Did the PAPI's look any different from 4 miles? Did they chuff. Same colour they always are.
Anyway, you could say I have quite an accurate picture of what my problem is, and from having studied the specs of the various lanterns it would appear that I haven't had the opportunity to try the one I'm most likely to pass, the Spectrolux.
Is there one of these in the UK? If not, could anyone tell me where there might be one that's reasonable accessible?
PS. Also have an unrestricted FAA medical, but want the JAA license!!
I appreciate your info there, it was very helpful. Definitly not going to be as 'trigger-happy' on the CAA medicals...I was thinking of doing the CAA colour vision tests for the £28, regardless of my City results...just to shoot for the slim chance I might just pass one of the lantern tests....gotta be worth a try!
Yeah I'm with you on that, I'm sure there's got to be some work floating about for the FAA ATPL holders, as you say the middle east seems to be a fertile spot for pilot employment these days, and the Manx classification looks very intriguing. I would love to go learn in the States, I can imagine it being an excellent experience, gotta love the weather they get in the more southern states, I am a bit of a Floridaholic too.
Yes I definitly will get involved in flying now, without a doubt, and the sooner the better...When I know what type of CVD I'm dealing with, I'll re-assess and go from there.
The woman at the uni did mention they can do the Holmes-Wright test for me, but the Beynes is back at Gatwick....I wonder if there HW is the same as the one at Gatwick, I know there's two types of HW, A + B....hmmm
QUOTE 2close Sorry davidd, I believe you have to go through the whole test again. Curiosity raises its head here - did you pass the Ishihara test at your Class 2 medical? If so, why worry about the Class 1 medical? If not, who did your lantern test - as I understand it lantern test results for Class 2 have to be validated by the CAA AMS for the issue of an unrestricted Class 2?
I passed the ishihara for my class2 just seems crazy having to shell out cash to take it again! Just like everything else in Aviation I guess Expensive!
The eye examination for the Class 1 is far more involved than that for the Class 2 and lasts about 45 minutes - it is the most involved part of the whole medical.
The colour vision part will probably take you about 30 seconds so don't worry about getting VFM.
Hi Neo_RS14 and welcome to the funny farm,
Both City Uni and CAA use the same lantern test (HW Type B I believe, Type A being used for maritime testing) and I am certain that the CAA will accept a pass at City Uni so if you do succeed make sure you get some documentary evidence.
If the CAA refuse to accept the results let us know because I will certainly be asking questions as to why the CAA is funding a project with fee-payers money and are then refusing to accept the results of tests conducted during that project.
SebastianRys - Have emailed you, although probably not much useful advice.....I'm surprised at how much better I feel just speaking to (well, emailing) two other people with the same condition. I've never met or spoken to anyone else with k/c before!
Iv been cheering myself up by realising im not the only colour unsafe pilot. I was hoping I could pass the lantern, looking at lights all the way to gatwick. I didnt realise how small the lights were going to be, or how close together, and being clolor blind they merge into one.
I still want to be an instructor, and maybe go further if one day the city uni brings the new tests out (fingers crossed)
Does anyone know the whats needed to be an instructor?
I wish anyone going for the lantern good luck.
The guy at Gatwick is really nice and helpfull and goes through the lights as many times as you want, and couldnt be more helpfull.
Ill have to check out where's best to do an instuctors rating, I think i might try liverpool, i know a few people who liked it there.
What i wanted to say is, if you go for the lantern and take your time and concentrate youll be fine, at the end of the day you cant revise or practice. You can either see them or you cant, dont worry about it I think i rushed it a little. Just bear in mind if you get a red/green combo wrong, then its an instant fail, so if you think it might be white, but it could be red green, say RED GREEN! Its a much safer bet.
Im looking forward to instructing, as whatever path i was going to take, id probably end up hour building that way anyway.
Thanks for advice, i am quite looney as you say.
Im going to bed, flying at 9 tommorrow, happy days, at the end of the day , i can still see, and i can still fly. Its not the end of the world
Another quick ? for 2CLOSE, can i be a paid first officer, as long as the captain has a full medical, and night vision (so to speak)
The reports seem to be very good in terms of halting k/c progression and in some cases reversing the effects to some extent. I wish it had been around 25 years ago when I had my treatment - corneal grafting. It went extremely well and I have 6/6 vision.
Anyway, SebastianRys and Jolly Roger should be in a better position to let you know about the treatment as they have (or will have) undergone the procedure, whereas I haven't.
I am a tad confused. You state you whizzed through the Ishihara plates. That infers that you went through them without any problems - if that is the case, get yourself down to Gatwick and have the Ishihara test because if you pass that then you will not be tested on the lanterns.
If I have misunderstood you, I would still go down to Gatwick, have the full test, ask the optometrist to test you on all plates and tell you how many you got wrong. Keep this information to hand - it may come in useful later. These lantern machines are very old, they are seldom maintained properly and some may very well be better than others - you never know, you might just pass the ones at Gatwick.
BTW, don't worry about the anomaloscope. Many people fail to meet the standards set for the aviation world.
I know what you mean with the determination, as it seems there is no hope. But just look at it this way. Even if we had “normal” colour vision then it is still a long hard slog to get to fATP level and then the problems of getting a job!! So CVD is just another problem to overcome in the larger picture.
As for the CAA testing, I agree with you. It is out of date and discriminatory and is not needed in today’s aviation. The Air Navigation Order only states colour vision to discern aviation colours (or similar wording – cannot remember the exact). This is where the FAA use the Light Signal Test – real aviation colours from a real control tower! There are 16500 CVD pilots in the USA 2000 have ATP and 5000 CPL so they WILL be in our skies all the time and are NOT causing any problems. Yes Millions of hours each year from professional CVD pilots with no problems. Congratulations FAA you have it right. Also CPL in Australia NO colour vision requirements for flying in Oz airspace – again NO problems.
The CAA is testing for “normal” colour vision with tests that colour normals will find hard and I feel the new tests when and if they come will be no better for us. Action is needed against the CAA, but in a controlled way. I have my own ideas, but will keep them to myself for the time as it’s going to take me a while to get to where I need to be for that!!
As for the tests. I would say go back to the optician and get a pair of correction glasses and prepare yourself for the tests at Gatwick and give them a try – give yourself the best try, sleep etc. To do the lantern tests you will have to do an eye chart first because of the distances from the lanterns (5 and 6 metres), but it is really very easy.
You are not alone and we all know how you are feeling, but people in our situation DO succeed and so can we.
Again all the best, keep your spirits up and keep flying.
Hi katsogr and welcome to our band of fellow freedom fighters,
I really do not want to pi55 on your fire but I may as well be brutally honest here so you don't build your hopes up too much.
2 metres does not meet JAR protocols and therefore would not be accepted for Class 1 certification. In order to fail the HW test at 2 metres you need to be virtually blind.
Also, under JAR FCL 3 an AME is not permitted to carry out a Class 1 Initial Medical examination; this must be carried out at a national Aeromedical Centre (AMC).
Given both of the above, I'm sorry but I would not put too much faith in the test that was conducted by your AME as you would probably have to undertake the colour vision tests again.
You may be very lucky and on attending your AMC for your Class 1 medical they may accept the intital test that the AME carried out without too many questions, in which case well done. But if anyone asks, I would extend that distance to more like 6 metres.
It is interesting you mention that she was an experienced FAA AME because 2 metres (or 8 feet) is the distance at which the FAA Farnsworth Lantern Test is conducted. I think she may have her wires crossed.
If you do get through (and I sincerely hope you do) and you get a CPL/IR in Greece, if Greece is a full JAA member state then the licence will definitely be accepted across all other member states with no further testing, medical or otherwise.
@ 2close, the AME tested me was working for an AMC (forgot to mention that.JAA aproved also). Meaning I was able to do my entire medical there but i was interested only in doing the lantern test.
I see that you were suprised by the distance, It might be 3 meters I can't tell for sure, but it definetly was not 6m.
I did quite a search before doing that test and from what I have seen everybody are speaking for HW type B. Has anyone seen type B? It's like a flashlight, she was holding it in her hands and she was changing something like objective lenses in front of the lamp to change the pairs of colour. the apertures was one next to the other ( and not above the other like type A) and about 3mm.
The light coming out was very very faint and I'm almost sure that from 6m I wouldn't be able even to discrete the apertures
I havent found any info on type B on the net, so if any of you konw somethink plz share the link.
I think Greece is a full JAA member, I'm 99% sure. All flight academies here are JAA certified.
JAR FCL 3 Manual of Civil Aviation Medicine requires the HW Test to be taken at a distance of 6 metres.
HW Type A is used for aviation purposes. Type B is used for maritime purposes and is reputedly more difficult to pass than Type A.
From the studies that I have read, when making comparisons between HW Type A and B and the Farnsworth, as an example, out of 100 CVD test subjects 40% will pass Farnsworth, 17% will pass HW Type A but only 6% will pass Type B (these are approximate figures for illustration only but pretty close to one study in the USA).
Here is another crazy thing.
Use of a more stringent HW Test would imply that the maritime industry has a higher standard of colour vision than the aviation industry. However, the maritime industry (in the UK at least) permits up to three errors on Ishihara as a pass, yet the aviation industry doesn't accept any.
Mad as a chocolate frog!
BTW, Countdown to FI test - T day + 7!!!!!!! Hilfe!!!
I am to put it bluntly.......Gutted !!! Having assumed that because I am colourblind (red/green deficient) I would never meet the criteria to become a commercial pilot !!! I failed the Ishihara plate test and this test is the only one I knew of and therefore forgot about the prospect of becoming a pilot. I am 25 now and think about the career I can't do every day. It disheartens me. However, I have recently found out that there is a Lantern test available and a lot of people who fail the Ishihara test pass this one, therefore gaining an unrestricted class 1 medical certificate. If I knew about this test 10 years ago, I could have followed my dream perhaps but I now feel its too late !!!
Should I go for the Lantern test and see what happens? Is it much easier to pass this one?
Its not too late, I've only just got my licence and I'm 26. I wouldn't say the lantern is easy, and by no means does *everyone* that fails the plates pass the lantern test, so don't get your hopes up. However yes the lantern tests are easier to pass then the plates, but you still need to have quite a mild CVD.
If you have an unrestricted Class One Medical that will be enough.
Some airlines will carry out further medicals but that is nothing to do with licensing, rather from an Occupational Health / HR viewpoint. Some airline pilots are subjected to various environmental factors that may, if not adequately controlled, have a detrimental affect on long term health and the employer has a legal duty to establish a benchmark from which these can be monitored over a period of time. Colour vision is not one of these.
However, you say 'that will be my only setback' so I presume you may have a colour vision deficiency (CVD) that you are aware of.
Not knowing your age, general health or training status it's difficult to offer any advice but if you're not in any rush I would in the first instance get down to your local optometrist and ask them to test you using the 24 Plate Ishihara Test and ask them EXACTLY how many mistakes you made (if any) - get it in writing. If you do fail (Current JAA Pass Criteria = NIL errors) let us know and join our group - Watch This Space!!
yep ill definetly join this group... when i say it will be my only setback, i dont mean to be cocky lol. but yes i know im red/green deficient... I just am very confused because i emailed the CAA medical people who said that Its best for me to take a vision test (colour) before I book the appintment, and if i fail that they will refund me 280 quid, and i only pay 30 quid... i was REALLY confused about that so i emailed them agen to clarify... are they sayin theres no alternative tests? or are they saying that taking a vision test beforehand will also include lantern tests etc. Im confident the lantern test wont be too bad...
Anyway... I really wana be a commercial airline pilot and providing i pass the lantern test (along with everything else), then that would mean an unrestricted class one? if so, then airlines should take me. I guess i need some advice really.
CP3 = Errors on Ishihara Test but designated Colour Safe after passing approved Lantern Test
CP4 = Errors on Ishihara Test and designated Colour Unsafe after failing approved Lantern Test
If you pass any one of the approved Lantern Tests you will be designated CP3 and you will be given an unrestricted Class One Medical Certificate. The Lantern Tests are not easy to pass and the majority of people who fail Ishihara go on to fail the Lantern Tests. If you are a marginal failure (One or Two errors on Ishihara) it is unlikely you will pass the Lantern Tests - but not guaranteed.
Here's the RAF Eyesight standards which will explain a little better.