Medical & HealthNews and debate about medical and health issues as they relate to aircrews and aviation. Any information gleaned from this forum MUST be backed up by consulting your state-registered health professional or AME.
Ok, here is the latest news.. I went to see my AMC Dr. and I told him that I mistakely omitted information in my initial medical certificate application form with them, specifically the box that refers to any medical certificate denial.. He told me that I never lied to him as I told him before the exam that I had a colour vision problem. He also told me that ticking the wrong box (saying no instead of yes) in my particular case was not a big deal because it wouldn´t make any difference in the examination process and that I passed and I shouldn´t worry. I even renewed my medical certificate with them.
My worry now is that the country that denied me the medical certificate once might do something for getting my new medical certificate revoked as they are apparently not accepting it. They are angry because finally I made it and now I have a valid JAA certificate.. Does anybody knows if they can really do something to get my medical certificate revoked? Do they have to accept my new medical certificate or no? If they don´t accept it, what happens if I get a JAA/CPL from other european country, can I fly in my country with that licence or I have to go through any accepting process?
Not sure what country you got your certificate in but if you omit information in the UK you are breaking the law. You sign a legally binding document stating you have not witheld any information.
Nothing might happen in your case. However, if you are ever involved in an aviation incident which is investigated then one of the things the investigators can do is pull your medical history. Then things get complicated for you.
Thanks waveydavey.. I know.. and because of that, I gave a written request to the AMC asking for ammendment of my medical form.. I forgot to tell it in my previous message. The Dr. told me that he will ammend it if neccessarily..
I went for the City uni tests at the end of July, here's what you get for your £125 if anyone is interested.
The whole appointment lasts about 90 minutes, I took 6 different tests in total.
1. Ishihara colour vision test (1-25 plates of 38 plate test)
As discussed plenty on this thread previously, first you look at the Ishihara plates. Test is in a darkened room, you sit at the desk and the plates are put on a stand with a light overhead to control the light conditions. The Ishihara plates are the ones where (hopefully!) you can see numbers on them.
2. American Optical Company (HRR) Plates
Similar to Ishihara except you have to identify shapes (circle, cross, triangle etc) and point to the outline of the shape.
3. Colour Assesment and Diagnostic test (CAD)
This is a computer based test, you sit on a chair and look through a chin/forehead rest to keep your head aligned. You look at a computer monitor, which has a square (I'd guess about 10cm sq) of grey and colours. You have a remote with four buttons that correspond to the corners of the square (top left, top right, bottom left, bottom right). Each test is about 1 second, the square you are looking at moves for about 1 second, flashing lots of different shades of grey small squares. Within this you should be able to see a coloured area, moving across one of the diagonal axis. Once the movement stops you have to press the button on the remote for the corner the coloured area stopped in. If you don't know you are told to guess. Its a difficult test (and I was warned this before I started), because it adjusts to your answers as it runs. You go through loads of the 1 second iterations, hundreds. It probably took me 15 mins in total. Further up this thread somewhere there is a link to a simple online version of this test.
4. Farnsworth D15 test
This is a series of 15 coloured counters (like a boardgame) of slightly differing shades, they put one counter in place to start you off and you have to put them in order of colour change, like a "spectrum". Its the only test I passed, with one mistake.
5. Nagel anomaloscope
Apparently this is still the Rolls Royce of tests. You look into a instrument similar to a telescope, and see a circle of colour split into to semi-circular halves. The operator sets the top half to one colour, you have to look into the eyepiece and twist a dial to match the bottom half to the top. Frankly I found it very difficult.
6. Holmes-Wright Lantern (Type A)
This is what I'd really gone for, becuase I understand this is what you get at Gatwick if you fail Ishihara. This test was done in a different room, twice, once with near darkness, and again in as close to pitch black as possible. I found it more difficult in the total darkness.
You sit 6m away from the lantern, which has 2 lights. They are about 2mm in diameter (same size as a standby LED on a TV set), positioned in a vertical line about 3cm apart.
The lights can be three colours, Red, Green, White. Before the test starts the operator shows you all three colours and tells you which is which.
The lights are shown in pairs, and you have to call out in turn what the colour is, top then bottom. Eg Red-Red, Red-White, Red-Green, Green-Green, etc etc. There are about 30-40 pairs I think. You are not allowed to make any mistakes.
Disappointingly but unsurprisingly I failed most of the tests. For the Holmes Wright lantern I can't differentiate between White and Green. I answered White-White when it was White-Green, White-white when it was Green-Green, etc etc. My condition is diagnosed as Protanomaly.
Written report
You receive a written report of the results about 1 week after the appointment. You are also verbally told the results on the day, and of course you can ask questions. I was advised it is highly unlikely I can pass a Class 1 medical, certainly not in the UK.
New PAPI test trials
City Uni are developing a new test based on PAPI lights as mentioned in this thread. I asked about this, was told (and shown the kit - looks similar to lantern) that it is about to be trialled, but it is not CAA approved yet. City Uni are looking for volunteers for the trail, if anyone is interested PM me for the Uni contact name and number.
Thanks for linking these pictures - I like the last one! That must have been some wide angle lens.
Don't forget that your PC screen may have been set up so that it is biased towards certain colours and, being a CVD, you may not notice this. It is therefore a bit hit and miss to say that you won't be able to see the colours on the new test. In a real aircraft they stick out to me like nothing else.
Two points:
1. The runway shape provides more clues than the PAPIs during the day. At night it is a different story but the lights at the side of the runway still provide a massive clue to the aircraft's position relative to the glideslope of the runway in front.
2. Some of the pilots that I know would have trouble even seeing the lights on a PC screen let alone in the cockpit as they are facing another challenge of the 6/4 in each eye kind. These pilots are a mixture of military, commercial and private.
Let's hope this new test is a winner and is adopted by the CAA as quick as possible. It could be the start of a practical assessment of a person's ability to fly and interpret information rather than reliance upon outdated medical tests.
I've come across the whole LCD screen and pixels versus actual filament bulbs before. To be honest I haven't done enough real world flying to effectively tell the difference. The last time I flew and experienced UK PAPIs was into EGHI (Southampton) where the sun was at our nose, the plexiglass was somewhat cracked in a few places and I had sunglasses on. So I couldn't really tell what the PAPI lights were showing.
However as you say looking at the shape of the runway is a very good indicator to your ideal vertical profile and I feel that I concerntrate more on this than guidance from PAPIS, VASIs and so forth. After all on every landing you can be sure that the same visual cue will be there; the runway. Not all airports and aerodromes have visual cues like PAPIs etc.
When I landed at Cairns in Oz in a Tiger Moth they have great visual landing aids. Its like a PAPI but in a T bar shape. Don't want to sound patronising but to people that haven't seen them, they're basically a line of white lights have white lights above and below the 'bar' If you're dead on glide scope you will just see a white bar. High and you'll see the white bar with incremental white dots above it, and below GS the reverse. I think if you go so low you should see complete red however you need to be driving into the airport to see that!
I looked at an optician report from last year and realised I had 6/4 vision in each eye. He said that theres no need for me to have a perscription but perhaps I will if I am to get the class 1.
Last edited by shgsaint : 29th September 2008 at 19:18.
I hope not - your 6/4 visual acuity means, in effect, that you can see at 6 feet distance what some people can see at 4 feet...so you should have no problem.
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To respond to Eastsiders comment on the PAPI simulator, there appears to be some confusion here.
I have it directly from the horse's mouth that the CAA have 'approved' it and are only waiting on City University to pull their finger out and certify it for commercial use. In fact, they are quite frustrated about the length of time it is taking them, especially considering they have given them scores of names for testing over the past couple of years, my own included. That was in May 2005 and I have heard nothing from them.
The wheels of the research machine turn very, very slowly sometimes but it is occasionally worth the wait. This will, hopefully for all of those on here, be one of those occasions.
2close please could you expand on the exact state of play about the CAA approving the PAPI test? If you're not happy to here then please PM me.
Shgsaint, we call those approach lights T-VASI. We use those and 4 PAPI in Australia.
I'm an EU citizen, and I've got more than 1800hrs Multi Engine Night Command and 600+I.F flying all sorts of aircraft including commuter turboprop, and it drives me nuts that i can't even fly a PA28 at night or IFR in the EU!!
2Close, I agree there seems to be mixed information, I'm not doubting what you say for a moment, all info welcome to try and work out together what is going on!
Here is a relevant extract of an email I received yesterday (14/08/06) from the lady who did my tests at City uni:
".....As explained to you we are carrying out a new study to eventually assess what level of colour vision is necessary to perform certain tasks in aviation environment. The tests have been finalised and I've started to test some people on them, especially normals. About 2 hours of testing may be required, probably less. If you would like to participate let me know and we can set up an appointment."
I think she's pretty keen for volunteers for this, both with known CVD and normal colour vision, anyone who is interested to know more please PM me.
(Please note I'm in no way associated with City Uni - just your average wannabee trying to work out if he's got a chance). Although I dunno why I'm bothering anymore seeing as I can't get that class 1.....
On a more positive note at least I'm starting my PPL proper this weekend at Stapleford!
your JAA country where you failed can do very little to get your current medical, issued by another state, revoked. If you have been issued with a medical certificate they really can't revoke it on grounds that were known when it was issued. Besides, another JAA member state has as little authority over other JAA states as you and me.
The country where you failed your medical could theoretically invalidate your (future?) flying licence when exercising the priviliges on aircraft registered in that country or, which is even more far out, prohibit you to fly in their airspace. I would say that the first example is against the EU principle of accepting each other certificates (especially since both are JAR) if both countries involved are an EU/EEA member. The second example should be against the ICAO convention since you meet the minimum standard outlayed by ICAO.
So in short, you should have now problem even though the country where you failed might give you a legal challenge in the future. However, do they require that you tell them that you use your JAR licence on their aircraft? If not, they will probably never find out and hence no probalem.
Thanks Martin.. but, how can I know this for sure? I mean, I might end up flying all over EU and suddenly this JAA country appears with a legal challenge against me (or against my Medical Certificate or Licence).. My AMC Dr. told me not to worry as he knew that I had a problem (I aware him) and that I shouldn´t worry about ticking yes or no, it wouldn´t change anything in my medical examination. How can I know that I wouldn´t get my medical revoked later on? I know that it will be against the EU principle of accepting each other certificates (especially since both are JAR) if both countries involved are an EU/EEA member, but shouldn´t they accept the JAA Medical Certificate that I have now and they are not? It´s all in JAR but still.. some national authorities do what they please !!
I´ve read about some similar cases like mine but my question is if they finally received mutual recognition even with a previous denial?
CAA Paper 2006/04 Part 1: Minimum Colour Vision Requirements for Flight Crew: The Use
Quote:
CAA Paper 2006/04 Part 1: Minimum Colour Vision Requirements for Flight Crew: The Use of Colour Signals and the Assessment of Colour Vision Requirements in Aviation
I haven't read this yet - just downloaded it so far (I'm a bout to go to work)
This paper details an examination as to whether the current colour vision tests and standards for professional pilots are still appropriate for modern aviation. This is part of a study to develop a new colour vision test and establish standard norms for the chromatic sensitivity that can be used to quantify the severity of colour vision lots.
Overflying the specific JAA country should be no problem. The only problem I can see that _might_ happen is if you use your future pilot licence on an aircraft registered in the country where you failed your medical _and_ the authority knows that you, who failed their medical, is flying an aircraft on their registry. However, as stated as of above, even if so happens it should pose no problem. In a few years time EASA might have come into effect and all might have changed by then, probably for the better in your case.
Hi everyone ...I am a new member of this site ... This site is great and i learned alot from other's experiences. I have a few questions, and i am hoping that someone can give me a hand.
I just realized that i have REd Green Colour deficiency . I failed the Ishihara test and my optomerist is booking the Lantern test for me. I was reading some of the posts from this site and others are stating that Airlines (such as CX, KA ..etc) have their own medical standards. Even if i am qualify for Class 1, airlines might not accept me since their medical standards are usually tougher than Class1 standards. I emailed the aviation doctor for CX and he said as long as i pass the lantern test, i will be qualify for Class 1 in Hk . But he did not say whether CX accepts anyone with Colour deficiency.
I am currently in my 2nd year of university study and i want to make Flying my career. I got to start saving money for flying school if i am to pursue my career as a pilot. I am just wondering if there is a way to Know the airlines medical standards? Will my colour vision problem prohibit me from getting into airline such as CX? enough for CX.
I recommend the above research paper to everyone. I saw the draft about a year ago and this has built upon that.
The paper will give you a good insight into the business of being a CVD and highlights the main issues at stake here.
In essence, the paper says the whole issue needs looking at and a standard test devised. It also says that colour vision is not necessarily linked to safety or the abilility of a person to fly an aircraft.
Thanks Jet A Knight.. good post!! and yes well done for City!!
I hope it all goes in the right direction for all of us CVD´s sentenced to ground by the "old-fashioned rules" defenders ..
!!
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