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Location: Where men are men and the women even hairier!!
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Having read with interest these pages over the past couple of years I am now of the opinion that the only way that this issue will ever be resolved is by legal action in the UK and/or EU Courts, similar to that taken by Dr. Arthur Pape and others in Australia.
I am presently researching a legal challenge, in both technical and social terms.
One area I have investigated is that of discrimination and I was interested to learn that the Disability Rights Commission's new Code of Practice on the Disability Discrimination Act, whilst identifying total colour vision as a disability, specifies Red/Green colour vision deficiency as NOT being a disability. Having been involved with disability issues for several years I find this extremely peculiar, particularly as the same CoP identifies other very minor deficiencies as BEING disabilities.
I have very lightly challenged the DRC to explain their publication, as folllows:
"I write on behalf of myself and probably numerous other pilots with colour vision deficiencies (CVD). I find it extremely peculiar that the new DRC DDA CoP refers to total colour vision as being a disability within the meaning of s.1 DDA but specifically identifies Red/Green colour vision, i.e. that most commonly suffered by males, as NOT being a disability. There is a blatant lack of consistency in this approach. Furthermore, it is odd that the DRC has removed the question referring to the CAA and colour vision deficient pilots from its website. Taking both of these issues into context, it would appear to me that the DRC has been put under pressure into identifying Red/Green colour vision deficiency as not being a disability within the meaning of the DDA. This effectively means that the DRC is potentially as guilty of discrimination as the 'protectors' of CVD itself. You are obviously aware that it has been held by separate Courts in Australia that this approach is discriminatory and luckily for CVD pilots, whilst this is a Code of Practice it is only that and being very new has not yet been challenged in the Courts. I look forward to your comments."
Of course, the powers-that-be may be correct, maybe CVD pilots flying in EU airspace do present a clear and present threat to flight safety and therefore the safety of people both in the air and on the ground. If that is the case then why are the powers-that-be performing their duties in such a negligent manner as to permit CVD pilots from outside the EU who would not meet the colour visual standards of the JAA to operate passenger laden airliners in EU airspace on a daily basis? What would the public outcry be if a major accident was found to be due to the CVD of a pilot from outside the EU? But it's not going to happen because in both the USA and Australia, where far more relaxed CVD standards are applied, aircraft are NOT falling out of the skies, not by day and not by night.
It would help if the powers-that-be could simply keep people informed of any positive developments. Regrettably, they seem to shroud this issue in a cloak of secrecy, and one can only conclude that it is done in order to protect the 'protectors' of CVD discrimination.
Head over the parapet, awaiting incoming............
The online version of the new test is very different to the lab version. Please don't think that it is as easy as it appears on a PC screeen - it isn't....but I suppose that would depend on the type of CVD one has !!
2close - it will be interesting to see what the DRC come back with.
It's possible to do a "lantern" test instead of the Ishihara plates if you're marginal, although I'm not sure if an AME can do that. It's a long time since I went through that so the information may be a little out of date. It's probably worth ringing the CAA medical people at LGW.
Take it from you will be as welcome to an airline as a "guide dog in a guide dogs home with Rabies"
I have a restricted JAR license due DCV and an FI rating but it has been an uphill battle and I have put the same resources into this as others but unfortunately the way things stand I cannot get a decent paying job outside of instruction (decent and paying are therefore mutually exclusive in that context).
My advice to you for what it's worth
Keep flying fun and don't ever stop flying
Go FAA route if you wan't a career but be aware of visa requirements
Check out RAF Instructor opportunities (air cadet instructors) as no license is required and you can gain excellent experience and have fun
Hope for changes with EASA but don't hold your breadth (I did that with JAR which was a sham).
I dont ever plan to stop flying, it's something i've always dreamed of doing, so that will never stop.
would you be able to explain to me a little more on the FAA route?!?
what's the process, and hows best to go about it? sorry but you seem to be the only one who has the answers i'm looking for!
so if you get me pointed in the right direction it would be most appreciated.
I never really concidered the RAF Cadet Route even though i got my Gliding Licence that way when i was younger. Its definately worth concidering if the FAA route Fails.
The US system is a bit more enlightened and does not impose as many limitations, as long as you can pass a tower light signal test you will be issued a waiver and can gain any level of license.
You will require a work visa or immigrant visa to actually use the license in the US (Outside of the US you may find other restrictions on using the license for paid work).
Not sure what your circumstances are but it is a big sacrifice to leave your homeland and friends just to get around archaic rules.
Might be smarter to keep flying and see what EAsa brings but then only you can decide. If you are young and time is plentiful and committments minimal then you could go to join a US trianing organisation on a J1 visa which will let you work as a flight instructor for 12 months after you qualify.
You will need to resesearch your options
Alternatively - accept the limitations and get a well paid job so that you can buy your own aircraft or setup your own aviation business.
Fourteen years ago I had a dream. That dream was to make a career out of flying. I had never flown an aircraft before and yet I wanted to be a pilot more than anything else in this world. Then I was living in the Seychelles islands, my country of birth.
My dream soon came crashing down when I failed the Ishihara test. I did not know what to do. Back then I was told "you will never become a pilot" I gave up the dream and took a career in Television production which I eventually learnt to enjoy but it was not exactly what I wanted. Back then I was not told that I could get a license with daytime restrictions. The main reason being that the only body running aircraft operations were Air Seychelles and as an airline they would never accept anyone with CVD. Even if I did get a license with restrictions there would be no planes to fly because out there there is no planes to rent.
I am now living in the UK and have done and failed the Lantern test in Gatwick and the desire to become a pilot keeps getting stronger and stronger.
I was under the impression that if one did fail the lantern test in Gatwick then one would be dark adapted and the test would be carried out in the dark. This was not the case. I failed in normal conditions and no test was done in the dark at all. I must specify that the conditions in that room was not proper especially with that Stupid "tube light" straingt in one's field of vision.
My advise to anyone with the same condition is to do the lantern test elswhere. Gatwick now wants me to quote a reference number if I want to try again. I have now become a number whereby I can be identified as another CVD candidate.
I have read that in the Netherlands is a good place to do the lantern test.
If anyone knows of the address in the Netherland please post it here. I would love to take the test again. After all you only have to pass it once!!
Keep the dream alive and keep fighting for one day CVD will be history. It will die a horrible death by the upcoming technological developments.!!
I am currently looking into a career as a pilot (want to do ATPL) but have CVD, although my colour problems are only slight (R/G) and I'm pretty sure I'll pass a lantern I have problems with ishihara plates, so have a couple of questions:
1. If I do ishihara at Gatwick, fail it then do the lantern and pass that will I get a full unrestricted class 1 medical?
2. Will I have to re-test my colour vision in future if I fail the ishihara then pass the lantern? And am I right in saying that people who pass the ishihara first time never have to re-test?
3. What advantage is there in taking my medical somewhere else in Europe, I see this mentioned a lot and am confused as to the differences.
4. If I try for class 1 at Gatwick, fail or get a restricted medical, then re-take it elsewhere and get an unrestricted C1 will the fact that I failed first time round be recorded and count against me in any way? ie. should I just go straight to some other European country to take my C1 bypassing CAA/GW entirely.
5. If I do determine that I'm better of getting my cert abroad, are airlines likely to prefer candidates with UK CAA C1s over me?
6. Does anyone know if the CAA use the 24 or 38 plate ishihara, and whether the plates are tested in order or randomly.
Sorry for so many questions, and sorry if some of them are already answered in the CVD threads, I have trawled through them at length but am utterly confused and am hoping some of you who have already navigated this minefield will be able to help.
Hi Lord Flashart, as you can see there are a lot of CVD pilots around here...
I'll try to help you:
1) If you fail the Ishihara test, but pass a lantern (there are two different types of lantern test), you get a full class one medical.
2) Correct. Once done (and passed) you can forget about this (unfair) test.
3) Probably you got confused. If you want to study and get your licence here in the UK the CAA needs you to have a UK JAR-FCL3 (but for example if you get a German JAR-FCL3 you can 'convert' this licence into an UK one withount any problem, test...). But if you have a restricted class one because you had failed the the colourvision test, you can with your UK JAR-FCL3 go to another JAA state member and try to pass the test there:
If you pass it, the foreign CAA will tell to the UK CAA that you are fit, and you will get a full class one.
4) If you pass the test in another JAA state member, the UK CAA will accept the result and lift off the restriction(-s).
5) I don't know, sorry
6) The UK CAA uses the 24-version. I'm not sure but I think that most of the JAA contries uses the 24-version.
When I did my test, the optometrist showed my the plates randomly.
Had a look at the colourblindness PART1: there are a lot of info!
but, if you still have any other question feel free to ask!
From what I have learnt from these pages, I think you will need a UK class one anyway, so I think you are best off trying at Gatwick first, and then if you fail that then try in another country, because you will have to convert it back to a UK one anyway, so from what I understand you have nothing to lose by going to Gatwick first. I stand to be corrected, but I don't think you should have too much trouble converting from say a French or German class one to a UK one.
What's more, you could go to City University in London for a thorough colour vision test using lanterns that I think are used at Gatwick, because it may be helpfull to get accustomed to the procedures to prepare for the real thing, experiencing the different shades of light.
trying at Gatwick first, and then if you fail that then try in another country
I suspect that if you fail the tests at Gatwick then even if you pass in another state you will have a difficult job convincing CAA that they are valid enough to overturn the CAA results.
Worth bearing in mind when you plan your test "strategy"
Much easier to take test abroad and then approach Gatwick if positive and ask for recognition of passed medical.
trying at Gatwick first, and then if you fail that then try in another country
I suspect that if you fail the tests at Gatwick then even if you pass in another state you will have a difficult job convincing CAA that they are valid enough to overturn the CAA results.
Worth bearing in mind when you plan your test "strategy"
Much easier to take test abroad and then approach Gatwick if positive and ask for recognition of passed medical.
My experience of this was that the CAA docs positively enouraged me to go abroad and do the tests there!
One senior, very senior , doc said that he did not believe in CVD restrictions and could see no point for them in today's world...he did add 'don't quote me' but it shows what a farce it is!
My experience of this was that the CAA docs positively enouraged me to go abroad and do the tests there!
One senior, very senior , doc said that he did not believe in CVD restrictions and could see no point for them in today's world...he did add 'don't quote me' but it shows what a farce it is!
in responce to your post i write:
Hello my name is Oliver Tomsett, I am currently under going training for my private pilots license, with the further intention of becoming an airline pilot. The other week I attended my class 2 medical which I passed with flying colours until I was tested for my colour vision, (using the ishihara plates) I failed miserberly, the examiner said I would never make it as an airline pilot now the stupid thing is that when sat in a cockpit i can read off all the colours to my instructor and can tell him the colour of the landing lights on the runway. This remark moved me, I am not about to let my dream die, so I set about researching the topic, were I found that the civil aviation authority was willing to test such candidates using the beyne lantern and the Holmes Wright lantern examinations. So I booked an appointment at Gatwick to have one. When I arrived I was extremely nervous; so apparent I was shaking, but I took the beyne lantern and only failed by, what the examiner said was marginal. Then I was tested on the Holmes Wright lantern I failed on the first set of lights, Any way I have been deemed by the CAA as colour unsafe. after reading your post about CAA doctors i wonder if you could supply infomation on the mentioned, as the only other option given to me by the CAA is a tribuneral.
Go to any of the fully-fledged JAA countries - make sure they are fully fledged - and take a Class 1 medical there. Come back to the UK and request that the CAA grant you a JAA medical on the basis of the Class 1 obtained in another JAA state.
but then what would happen if i failed in another counry? the caa said strictly that i was not to take another lantern examination, and stated that i have to prove that i am not colour blind by another form eg, a specialist argueing my case if i am ok,
The CAA re intransigent Ba$s%a$£S when it comes to this subject so save your time and money, you will get more success from banging your head against a brick wall.
The only thing that they would take seriously is a legal challenge but that would take money, lots of it.
e.g. If I am unsafe for night flying how come you have restricted me to no passenger transport at all (even by day ?), why UK aircraft only, why UK airspace only ?
Answer - Because we are a bunch of arrogant, ignorant and very vindictive Tossers !
Sorry if this offends anyone but hey it's the truth !
COLOUR BLINDNESS. AGAIN!!! sorry folks
vindictive Tossers !
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