Well, having seen the projected route of "The Fence" (mirthless laugh) tonight, all I can say is wow.
What a great concept, build a "dividing" wall, that actually goes in a circle. Well, no,that's not true, it's two circles, containing two areas of land, that Palestinians will be able to live in and call their own. Except, the land left, is a bit less than they're living in now, and will be divided in two.
Well, what do you call an area of land, surrounded by a physical barrier, with restricted access in and out, and your lines of supply controlled by another power, with the intention of keeping one ethnic group separated from another?
I'd call that a ghetto. Well actually, two ghettos.
With respect Tony, anything that has a border round it ie a country town or city is not automaticaly a ghetto, which could be an inference you are making.
I have a wall, fortifications and armed guards in Humvees outside my compound, they regularly point the .50 cal at me when I am going in, I do not however consider myself in a ghetto, circumstances have deemed it appropriate, I recognise that.
Are you free to come and go as you please? Or is your access in and out restricted?
Has your compound been constructed for your protection, or the protection of your "hosts"?
Because keeping one ethnic group walled up, with their own shops and services, with enforced restrictions on travel in and out, that is a Ghetto. Sorry, it's two ghettos Unless some heads can get banged together quickly, If that wall gets completed, there will NEVER be peace in the region
1. (n.) an impoverished, neglected, or otherwise disadvantaged residential area of a city, usually troubled by a disproportionately large amount of crime
Not sure I agree with the last part, but the first part sums it up.
The "Fence" is being built through land and businesses that these people rely on, which will disadvantage them, no?
In the short term, this will create unpleasantness, in the longer term, economic hardship and festering resentment
I think the Israeli government , is creating an ideal breeding ground for the next generation of suicidal muppets . After all, if you wake up every day, to see your humiliation staring you in the face, what exactly are you going to do?
Is the thrust of your argument Bubbette, that the Arabs have happily been prejudiced against the Jewish peoples for so long,denied them entry, denied them ownership etc, that when Israel does it to the Palestinians, it's simply a little payback? A little "Eye for an eye"?
Gosh, it all becomes crystal clear now.
Now Bubbette, this wall around Palestine, (Which of course never existed) would you describe it as an exciting new development to help the Palestinians (Who don't exist, as there's no country called Palestine) reach their true potential, in sheltered and protected surroundings, or a potential GHETTO? Ooooops TWO Ghettos?
You even refer to them as "Muslim Arab non-Israelis" or is this a new set of Arabs we're talking about? Maybe Sharon needs to address the threat from this group you've brought to our attention. Or, are you referring to the murdering scumbag Hizbollah?
Wonder what will happen to the water supply of the "Muslim Arab non-Israelis" after all those new settlements get built on the land they've had taken away by sleight of hand?
In fact, the security fence is only on the Western side of most West Bank residents, and though the fence restricts some movement, legal Palestinian passage through official gates remains completely free. By ignoring the fence's justification as an anti-terror measure you are making comments out of context.
The security fence, is an extremely expensive project that is viewed favorably by most Israelis, but only as a last resort. In the midst of a severe economic downturn, Israel can only justify this project to save the lives of its citizens, who remain vulnerable to constant and ongoing terror attacks. The Palestinian Authority has not done their job of reining in terror, so Israel must do so. Israel's options are either constant invasion of Palestinian towns or building a passive fence. Nearly everyone prefers the latter.
While the media scrutinise the security fence, the central issue, an immediate and total end to Palestinian terrorism, is not a concession the civilised world asks of the Palestinian Authority to advance the peace process. It is a prerequisite to the Palestinian Authority's invitation to it.
For what I beleive to be an unbiased and fairly balanced report on the fence please read this article from the Christian Science Monitor.
In the last couple of years there have been about 100 suicide bombings in Israel. All the terrorists came from the West Bank, where there was no fence. None came from Gaza, where there is a fence. One draws ones own conclusions.
(Don't try to inject logic into solotk's discussion with him/herself. It will only widen his/her/it's confusion and runs the risk that he/she/it will clog up other threads with more Utopian blather.
One could live with the "Wall" if it was built on the Green Line. But it's not, far from it.
In fact Sharon was against it for years because he did not want to see it serve as a de facto border between the Jewish state and the emerging Palestinian one and isolating the West Bank settlements. Now Sharon seems to have hijacked the plan in order to secure more land before he's forced by the Road Map.
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In fact, the security fence is only on the Western side of most West Bank residents, and though the fence restricts some movement, legal Palestinian passage through official gates remains completely free.
In fact, that's untrue. Here's a detailed map of the projected Fence which shows that after the wall is finished, at a cost of more than $2 billion, the Palestinians will live in two minuscule states behind concrete and electrified fencing, restricted to their main population centers. Thousands of rural Palestinians will live outside the West Bank cage in military controlled zones, denied rights as citizens of either Palestine or Israel. The rest will live inside the prison. Palestine will finally be born from 42 percent of 80 percent of 22 percent of the historic Palestinian homeland.
It would be interesting to find out how many of us (on PPRuNe)have actually been to Israel. And are therefore such qualified to comment. I went there last month and as such have my own opinion but thats another thing...
In all my travels I have never met such a nice bunch of of people, who take pride in their country. I think its got to be one of the nicest parts of the world I have ever visited...
Danny lifted my views from another thread, to start this new one. In doing so, it kind of lost it's way a bit, but no doubt, will recover, when we all throw our views in.
Please feel free to run your mouth again, I think you need to change feet.
Danny, thanks for the heads up on the publication. My girlfriend runs a bookstore, I'll ask her to order it in, it should certainly make things a bit clearer. The title suggests it will be a good insight.
I don't think one has to have been to Israel in order to comment; I think one should have a sense of the geography and the general Western notion that "murder=bad" to comment; course that's why we're all here--to educate one another
Thanks for starting the new thread. I think the fence is a horrible idea; it won't protect one Israeli---just give some people who live in Tel Aviv a false sense of security.
I think that the government in Israel are nothing more than modern day Nazi's. Building a wall to either keep people in or out is just wrong. This problem goes back to 1948 when Israel was created. Prior to this time the jews, muslims , and christians all lived in realative peace in the area.
I do not condone killing for any reason. I feel if the Israelis stopped driving their tanks into Palistine, Palistinians would stop strapping bombs to themselves and killing Israelis.
Regretably, I see the fence/wall as an act of desparation to keep murderous individual bombers/gunfighters away from civilians. I would not normally support a wall as described, but there does not seem to be any other effective response to an entity that, regardless of political rhetoric, is determined to push them into the sea eventually.
Bubbette, I understand what you mean but it does make a difference when you actually go out to a place and meet and talk to the people who live there. You get much more of a perception for what cannot be got across by the media. To be fair though I think your comment was fair in its own right.
I also believe that the fence is not a good thing - it seems to attempt to address the symptoms of a (the) problem rather than the cause of it. But then who knows all the nitty gritty details of the whole situation. We are a all third party observer, with the implicit limitations of being such, after all.
Apart from the bits of the fence that actually divert into the West Bank proper the 'fence' follows more or less the original green line. Apart from the few miles where it is actually a 26 foot high wall to protect the highway nearby the rest is typical of the border fence that runs along all Israels borders with its neighbours where infiltrations of terrorists have occured.
Like any physical border it has its limitations. It is primarily designed to prevent infiltration. Should anyone successfully cross it who shouldn't then there is the early warning and the footprints to give any infiltrator a problem as the security forces have a starting point from where to search.
As mentioned in an earlier post, most Israelis see this fence as a last resort and the Palestinian leadership only have themselves to blame for the restrictions it puts on the lives of their people. Of course the politicians that decide these things are not exactly founts of insight or foresight for that matter and the amount of festering resentment that the fence is likely to cause long term has probably not been considered by them too much.
Like anything though, it is possible to have it altered should there be some kind of breakthrough (if you'll excuse the pun) on the diplomatic front. Don't hold your breath though.
As for rwm's comments:
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This problem goes back to 1948 when Israel was created. Prior to this time the jews, muslims , and christians all lived in realative peace in the area.
In this case I think you are in dire need of some education and until then please don't bother us with your ignorance, simplistic and ill thought out comparisons. If you thought the region was 'peaceful' before 1948 then you're even more ignorant than I though.
Try reading 'Israel & the Palestinian: Why they fight and can they stop?' by Dr Bernard Wasserstein for an unbiased and detailed study of the problem and going much further than the blinkered 'religious' point of view that many people seem to think is the sole cause.
As an aside and to get all those of you with a real interest in the problems facing the region you should read 'Divided Jerusalem: The Struggle for the Divided City' by the same author. I'm currently in the middle of that book and it is fascinating to see what problems lay ahead once the thorny issue of that city has to be sorted out. Just look at the international meddling and general fcuking up of that city that has occured over the centuries.
