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Old 13th Nov 2017, 18:38   #1 (permalink)
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Misgendering or genuine mistake?

The Church of England has given guidance to its schools that children should be free to “explore who they might be” so they can avoid being subject to homophobic or transphobic bullying.

Church of England issues transphobic bullying guidance - BBC News

And now this teacher faces action over “misgendering” a pupil. I have to confess I’ve genuinely slipped up in the past and called a group of students, “lads, guys, girls etc” incorrectly.

Oxford teacher faces action over 'misgendering' pupil - BBC News

Are we overcomplicating the gender issue or is it something that should be brought to the fore?
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Old 13th Nov 2017, 18:45   #2 (permalink)
 
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Reading the report it seemed to me that the teacher just made a genuine mistake. I have a transgender friend I've known for a long time, since before she transitioned, and even now I still very occasionally call her by her old male name, just from habit. It's as embarrassing as hell for me, but she just takes it in her stride.

We have to accept that it is not easy for people to adapt to change generally, and very much harder to adapt to gender change. It takes a great deal of effort to constantly remind yourself that a person you've known for years as a man is now a woman, and I have absolutely no doubt that this remark by the teacher ("well done girls") was said without a moment's thought for the adverse consequences. I also think that it has been deliberately blown out of all proportion by those with an axe to grind about gender dysphoria.
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Old 13th Nov 2017, 19:15   #3 (permalink)
 
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I worked with a woman who I found bizarrely rather attractive and, although I consider myself totally straight, would even say I felt a bit of a girlie crush on her. She had a very magnetic personality and I just couldnít put my finger on what it was that I was drawn to. She was tall for a woman and had a slightly deeper voice than is usual but not totally uncommon. I found her company very relaxing and totally non competitive which is occasionally the case amongst women.

One day, she confided in me that she was actually a male living as a female in preparation for gender reassignment. I was totally stunned because Iíve always considered myself able to spot transgender individuals. Generally, you can see by hands, jawline and muscle tone (particularly legs) Females also have a totally different walk that is hard for a male to replicate. This particular woman was statuesque, willowy and incredibly elegant with wonderful style.

I still wonder if my attraction to her was an underlying intuition or instinct that she had been born and was still genetically a male? Iíve never ever felt the same draw to any other woman.
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Old 13th Nov 2017, 19:24   #4 (permalink)
 
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I wonder who complained? And I wonder why an apology and fulsome explanation wasn't good enough? I feel we're rapidly approaching the point where the outrage bus passengers are actively looking for issues in order to reinforce the 'fact' that, if you do not adhere exactly to the script, you are a bigot and a hate criminal. It reminds me of Peter Tatchell in his prime, who seemed to be saying to every man in the country, "Go on, admit it, you're at least part gay, and I'll hound you till you do admit it!"

CG
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Old 13th Nov 2017, 19:38   #5 (permalink)
 
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Just listen to shop assistants, waiting staff, organisers addressing a group of female or mixed sex people as "guys".
This Oxford incident is just the professional outragers looking for trade.
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Old 13th Nov 2017, 19:48   #6 (permalink)
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It’s impossible to tell without being there at the time, he was obviously upset, and it may reveal something not reported. The teacher’ personal views are clear, but were they insinuated into classroom discussion?

What I mean by that is much innuendo and comment cannot be reflected in hard print, much can be conveyed just with slight pauses in speech and facial expressions, exactly because they cannot be proved afterwards. For example the deliberate avoidance of the use of “he” and “his” and use of her name. In can assure you the difference of a microsecond pause and a subtlety different tone when asking a question such as, “what do you think Josephine” and “what do you think... Josephine...?, or “well done girls” and “well done... girls”..., can be stark and obvious to everyone present.

Updated to include the comments about the teacher appearing on TV this morning with a representative of an anti-transgender and anti-homosexual organisation would, in my view, suggest that the behaviour of the teacher was indeed not be as innocent as it may appear.

https://www.standard.co.uk/stayingin...-a3689691.html

Last edited by ORAC; 13th Nov 2017 at 20:08.
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Old 13th Nov 2017, 20:24   #7 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by annakm View Post
I worked with a woman who I found bizarrely rather attractive and, although I consider myself totally straight, would even say I felt a bit of a girlie crush on her. She had a very magnetic personality and I just couldn’t put my finger on what it was that I was drawn to. She was tall for a woman and had a slightly deeper voice than is usual but not totally uncommon. I found her company very relaxing and totally non competitive which is occasionally the case amongst women.

One day, she confided in me that she was actually a male living as a female in preparation for gender reassignment. I was totally stunned because I’ve always considered myself able to spot transgender individuals. Generally, you can see by hands, jawline and muscle tone (particularly legs) Females also have a totally different walk that is hard for a male to replicate. This particular woman was statuesque, willowy and incredibly elegant with wonderful style.
Some males behave in a feminine way from early in life - some of these don't choose the transgender route - but some, no doubt, will.
I had acquaintances in my youth (!) who identified as male (and, no doubt were) but were, nevertheless pretty and attractive (in a boyish way - ie not 'manly').
And then there are 'men' who choose to identify as women - some of whom have pronounced Adam's apples (just one each).
Mrs G-CPTN worked with a guy who decided to change gender and he/she asked Mrs G to mentor them and guide them through dress and makeup.
Their name was Nikki - so genderless - which made acceptance somewhat easier though there were inevitably some difficulties from other members of staff and students (in a University environment).
Diana Rigg (Emma Peel) - who was my teenage crush - and is a tall statuesque person (at least she is taller than me - and wears heels to boot - not to mention the boots . . .) was their Chancellor.
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Old 13th Nov 2017, 20:40   #8 (permalink)
 
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I wonder who complained? And I wonder why an apology and fulsome explanation wasn't good enough?
We live in the age of snowflakes, and yet the complaint is that global warming is the threat. Interesting juxtaposition in this here modern life.
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Old 13th Nov 2017, 20:54   #9 (permalink)
 
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Originally Posted by annakm View Post
I worked with a woman who I found bizarrely rather attractive and, although I consider myself totally straight, would even say I felt a bit of a girlie crush on her. She had a very magnetic personality and I just couldnít put my finger on what it was that I was drawn to. She was tall for a woman and had a slightly deeper voice than is usual but not totally uncommon. I found her company very relaxing and totally non competitive which is occasionally the case amongst women.

One day, she confided in me that she was actually a male living as a female in preparation for gender reassignment. I was totally stunned because Iíve always considered myself able to spot transgender individuals. Generally, you can see by hands, jawline and muscle tone (particularly legs) Females also have a totally different walk that is hard for a male to replicate. This particular woman was statuesque, willowy and incredibly elegant with wonderful style.

I still wonder if my attraction to her was an underlying intuition or instinct that she had been born and was still genetically a male? Iíve never ever felt the same draw to any other woman.
I think it's quite possible that you only notice the ones who have the masculine traits. I know a woman who has changed gender and the only thing I noticed was that she drove like a man. Not to say that women can't be good drivers of course, just that she had an unusual confidence that women don't usually display.
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Old 13th Nov 2017, 21:01   #10 (permalink)
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the professional outragers looking for trade.
May I steal that line ? Perfect summation Phil !
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Old 14th Nov 2017, 07:41   #11 (permalink)
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I am starting to think it's best for me to refer to a person as "it". That way I can't be accused of assuming the wrong gender.
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Old 14th Nov 2017, 07:47   #12 (permalink)
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The Church of England has given guidance to its schools that children should be free to “explore who they might be”
Can they please extend that to children being free to explore if they really believe in an invisible god.

Equality and all that......
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Old 14th Nov 2017, 08:22   #13 (permalink)
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Can they please extend that to children being free to explore if they really believe in an invisible god.

Equality and all that......
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Old 14th Nov 2017, 11:05   #14 (permalink)
 
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B Fraser - I rather think they already do. My 3 children all attended the local C of E church primary school, and I don't recall any pressure to conform to a particular religious belief. Sure they learned about the Christian religion, and no doubt 30 years later the same school is teaching a wider religious curriculum, but there was never any pressure to attend church, etc, and they are all three now "confirmed" atheists.

Last edited by Tankertrashnav; 14th Nov 2017 at 11:21.
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Old 14th Nov 2017, 11:06   #15 (permalink)
 
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Equality and telling people to be offended is becoming a huge industry. There are lots of people employed in this industry either telling others what they cannot say or do and the list is getting bigger all the time. In teaching people this they are also telling people what they can be offended by and some, especially the more attention seeking kind will go on to be offended at even more then they would have before. Thus it is a self propelling monster that will just continue to grow.

Until people start saying enough is enough it will just continue to get worse. The problem is saying enough is enough will probably mean some people now get offended.

We now get the bizarre situation where someone is offended at hearing something that they would not previously have been offended by, after having been told that it was offensive at an 'anti-offensiveness' course.

The real issues such as racism and sexism will unfortunately be diluted as a result of being dealt with by the same process that will eventually be dealing with anti vegan issues.
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Old 14th Nov 2017, 11:32   #16 (permalink)
 
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We now get the bizarre situation where someone is offended at hearing something that they would not previously have been offended by, after having been told that it was offensive at an 'anti-offensiveness' course.
You will usually find, that in such situations, there is a whiff of compensation at the end of it, courtesy of the taxpayer.
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Old 14th Nov 2017, 13:36   #17 (permalink)
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Equality and telling people to be offended is becoming a huge industry. There are lots of people employed in this industry either telling others what they cannot say or do and the list is getting bigger all the time. In teaching people this they are also telling people what they can be offended by and some, especially the more attention seeking kind will go on to be offended at even more then they would have before. Thus it is a self propelling monster that will just continue to grow.

Until people start saying enough is enough it will just continue to get worse. The problem is saying enough is enough will probably mean some people now get offended.

We now get the bizarre situation where someone is offended at hearing something that they would not previously have been offended by, after having been told that it was offensive at an 'anti-offensiveness' course.

The real issues such as racism and sexism will unfortunately be diluted as a result of being dealt with by the same process that will eventually be dealing with anti vegan issues.
Thatís an interesting point. Maybe the teacher has the right - correctly or incorrectly - to be offended by transgender people. Thatís his prerogative I suppose?
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Old 14th Nov 2017, 13:45   #18 (permalink)
 
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I am starting to think it's best for me to refer to a person as "it"
You're in good company with the Finns (it may be the Sami to be precise), their native language has no words to denote gender, and they refer to it as "it".
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Old 14th Nov 2017, 14:53   #19 (permalink)
 
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That’s an interesting point. Maybe the teacher has the right - correctly or incorrectly - to be offended by transgender people. That’s his prerogative I suppose?
It's the same point that's been made here before. We all have the right to believe what we wish, to find things offensive or inoffensive based on those beliefs and no one has the authority to force us to change our beliefs.

Society does have the right to expect people to keep any beliefs that are offensive to others to themselves, though, and the questions here are whether what the teacher said was truly offensive and whether he intended it to be so.

It could be viewed either way. If the teacher just made the comment "well done girls", without having given a moment's thought to how that might be perceived by someone he was indirectly addressing that was confused or uncertain about their gender, then I would say it was just an innocent mistake that's been picked up on by those with an axe to grind.

On the other hand, if the teacher deliberately used the phrase "well done girls", intending it to be offensive to the one child with gender identity issues, then it puts what he said in a whole different light.

I can't help but feel that if we carry on making a fuss about comments like this we could all end up being scared of being found guilty of something by accident, and then hounded by the media for it.
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Old 14th Nov 2017, 15:16   #20 (permalink)
 
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Grown ups (not children) can do what they want in their bedrooms.
However deviancy has been very heavily marketed by the BBC for several years now, so has become very much the fashion. To the point where actually being normal is frowned on.
The reason for this can be traced back to Georg Lukacs. He used promiscuous behaviour, deviancy and immorality as a mechanic to break down society and with it capitalism. This was then taken up by the Frankfurt School and is a cornerstone of Cultural Marxism. A step on the road to a post democratic society.
Many countries and many people in Britain still think that childhood gender problems are mental illnesses. Certainly they are very common now that they are fashionable but were virtually unknown 50 years ago.
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