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Old 14th Nov 2017, 18:07   #21 (permalink)
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Glad to hear it Mr Nav. The idea of telling a child what they must believe is a form of abuse. The worst types in my view are those that either lop off a bit of their anatomy or tell children that Jesus is dead and it's their fault. The kids are of an age where they have yet to decide on their favourite colour.

If in later life they then decide of their own free will to believe in something then fair enough.
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Old 14th Nov 2017, 18:15   #22 (permalink)
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Society does have the right to expect people to keep any beliefs that are offensive to others to themselves, though
That's an interesting one Mr VP. I have no problem with someone trying to convince me that fox hunting is acceptable or whales are tasty. I hope they don't have a problem with me giving an alternative view as they will certainly get one. If we silence those with whom we disagree, what have we become ?
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Old 14th Nov 2017, 19:09   #23 (permalink)
 
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Healthy debate, free from personal attacks just because we hold an opposing view, enhances society, in my view. Those who refuse to enter into a debate, but just insist on decrying the views of others for their own personal reasons add nothing to society at all, and just create tension for their own personal enjoyment.

Debate can be educational, illuminating, mind expanding and generally good for creating a more tolerant and understanding society. It comes down to the old saying by Voltaire:

"I may disagree with what you have to say, but I shall defend to the death your right to say it."
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Old 14th Nov 2017, 19:16   #24 (permalink)
 
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Originally Posted by VP959 View Post
Healthy debate, free from personal attacks just because we hold an opposing view, enhances society, in my view. Those who refuse to enter into a debate, but just insist on decrying the views of others for their own personal reasons add nothing to society at all, and just create tension for their own personal enjoyment.

Debate can be educational, illuminating, mind expanding and generally good for creating a more tolerant and understanding society. It comes down to the old saying by Voltaire:

"I may disagree with what you have to say, but I shall defend to the death your right to say it."
Like it VP - very well said.
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Old 14th Nov 2017, 19:57   #25 (permalink)

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Being born hermaphrodite is not a choice
Physical gender at birth is not a choice
Mental gender at birth and through life is not a choice
Being gay or bisexual is not a choice

Taking offence however, IS a choice
Taking offence on behalf of other people is presumptuous and patronising

Punching someone on the nose is a choice
Being punched on the nose is not a choice

“Yes, but your right to swing your arm leaves off where my right not to have my nose struck begins.” John B. Finch - 1882

Mac


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Old 15th Nov 2017, 10:20   #26 (permalink)
 
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To go back to the original story, if there were a group of pupils and one of them "identified" as a boy when they were really a girl, should the school have not put "him" in a class with boys? It sounds to me that they can't be consistent, if the child wants to be treated as a boy then go all the way and put them in a class with them.

How can anyone "explore" the various opinions and options if they keep getting told that they can't pick one in case it offends someone. There seem to be more and more professional outragers in the world

(if we use this word enough it might get in the OED).
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Old 15th Nov 2017, 10:34   #27 (permalink)
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Men under threat from 'gender bending' chemicals.
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Old 15th Nov 2017, 15:18   #28 (permalink)
 
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Originally Posted by annakm View Post
I still wonder if my attraction to her was an underlying intuition or instinct that she had been born and was still genetically a male? I’ve never ever felt the same draw to any other woman.
My guess is that as a hetero female, you were attracted to a"statuesque, willowy and incredibly elegant" man that had "wonderful style." And despite hormone therapy and any number of surgical interventions to alter some physical features, that individual will remain a male right down to the molecular level.

Just my 2 cents worth.
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Old 16th Nov 2017, 05:10   #29 (permalink)
 
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Physical gender at birth is not a choice
Nor is it changeable. As a function of a free society, I support those who feel they need cosmetic surgery to alter their appearance but it doesn’t change some fundamental facts.
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Old 16th Nov 2017, 06:25   #30 (permalink)
 
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I'm sure there is some x/y issue in there (Except in rare cases)
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Old 16th Nov 2017, 08:41   #31 (permalink)
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If we silence those with whom we disagree, what have we become ?
Socialists.
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Old 17th Nov 2017, 22:31   #32 (permalink)
 
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Socialists.
I often ponder the similarity between the actions of self confessed "socialists" who will protest at perceived opressions to such a degree they are more than willing to offer violence and destruction of property, and a group of "National Socialists" from the 1930's and 40's, that the aforementioned "socialists" insist are anyone who doesn't agree with their opinion or tries to prevent them from causing mayhem.

In short, if you want to call someone a "Nazi", make sure you're not exhibiting the same traits yourself
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Old 18th Nov 2017, 06:18   #33 (permalink)

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I'm sure there is some x/y issue in there (Except in rare cases)
In a way that's correct, Ex Cargo Clown. Gender/sexuality is not the simple thing that people often suppose. It isn't yes/no, on/off, black/white, this/that or anything quite so defined. It's actually a sliding scale and there's an explanation for it. Possession of the y chromosome does not guarantee that the child will be male. We know that the natural form of the human being is female and the presence of the y chromosome in the foetus simply gives it the potential to become what we think of as male.

At approximately six weeks into gestation the developing foetus is subjected to an androgen event that floods it with male hormones. If the foetus is xx, these androgens should have a lesser effect and if it is xy they should be enough to convert the (naturally female) foetus into a fully male one provided it has the y chromosome. Priority always goes to "shaping" the physical form and there should also be enough to change the brain "format" in the case of a potential male.

However, things often go awry at this stage. In the case of our xy foetus there may not be enough androgen and, after the priority for the physical appearance has been dealt with, there may not be enough left over to fully configure the brain to a male pattern. (Our ability to scan brains has shown us how different male and female brains can be.) Further complicating the issue is the fact that we can have xy females and xxy males ... and even more variations in the xy conformation.

It is basically this important androgen event that determines a person's sexuality regardless of their physical form. As Mac the Knife said, it is not a choice and it can never be changed.
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Old 18th Nov 2017, 08:47   #34 (permalink)
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there may not be enough androgen
And is there an identifiable cause for this - e.g. vegetarian diet, lack of excercise, excessive drinking, smoking etc.?

If it could be corrected it could save a lot of people a lot of heartache in the future.
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Old 18th Nov 2017, 10:10   #35 (permalink)

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"Physical gender at birth is not a choice"

"Nor is it changeable."

At a chromosomal/molecular level, of course not.

But having been involved in trans surgery for many years, I can assure you that joy of trans-men not having to wrap their chests in a binder every day is transformative.

Sure, there are a few cuckoos out there (you learn to avoid them), but most trans-people are perfectly sane and often very pleasant people. It is a privilege to give them a somatic gender that they feel comfortable in.

Mac

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Old 18th Nov 2017, 14:44   #36 (permalink)

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And is there an identifiable cause for this - e.g. vegetarian diet, lack of excercise, excessive drinking, smoking etc.?
I haven't read much on the subject in recent times, UniFoxOs but I remember that there is some correlation between stress in the pregnant mother and the likelihood of having homosexual children because the stress hormone, cortisol, affects the production of the foetal hormones. Also there was some evidence (sorry, I don't have the sources handy) that the use of recreational drugs such as alcohol, nicotine, amphetamines etc may influence both the mother's production, the foetal production, and the levels at which the hormones should be "absorbed."

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I can assure you that joy of trans-men not having to wrap their chests in a binder every day is transformative.
So true Mac. I saw for myself the happiness of my friend when the surgeries were finally completed. There's an inner transformation as well as an outer ... the person they really are is finally reflected in the mirror.

Last edited by BlueDiamond; 18th Nov 2017 at 14:54.
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Old 18th Nov 2017, 17:47   #37 (permalink)
 
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Mac, I'm glad it brings some level of comfort to the folks involved.
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Old 19th Nov 2017, 10:05   #38 (permalink)
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That's very interesting, Bluey. Presumably it would also mean a correlation between LGBTUVWXYZ children and socio-economic group of the parent. Has any research been done in this area?

I would guess not.
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Old 19th Nov 2017, 10:41   #39 (permalink)

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I haven't actually looked for information on that aspect of it, UniFoxOs ... there might well be a relationship there and I'll dig around and see what can be found.
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Old 19th Nov 2017, 14:46   #40 (permalink)
 
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Just a thought, and I’m not passing judgement here, if we end up with gender neutral toilets, changing rooms etc, won’t there be more opportunities for those with not the best of intentions possibly taking advantage of women at their most vulnerable?
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