PPRuNe Forums


Jet Blast Topics that don't fit the other forums. Rules of Engagement apply.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 19th Jun 2017, 23:03   #81 (permalink)
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: "Deplorable but happy as a drunken Monkey!
Age: 69
Posts: 1,125
While sitting in the USS Tarawa XO's stateroom, coffee cup in hand discussing business and plans for Liberty ashore in Hong Kong, having just tied up to a Mooring Bouy in front of the China Fleet Club and the engine room told to Ring Off Engines and the OOW to set the Anchor Watch.......over the 1MC was heard "Captain to the Bridge....Captain to the Bridge" spoken in a decisive, affirmative, and "commanding manner".

The XO dropped his Cup and ran to the Bridge with me in tow.....along the way....the Collision Alarm sounded!

Upon arriving on the Bridge I found an out of the way place to hide and watched events unfold.

The OOW was a brand new Ensign....who was pasty faced....and plainly under some serious stress.

The Tarawa was under way, without power, in Hong Kong Harbor.....still tied to the Mooring Bouy which had parted its anchor line....and we were drifting down upon the USS Sterrett , a guided misleading cruiser astern of us on her Buoy.

The Ensign briefed the Captain of his actions....calling for the Engine room to put on "turns" immediately or sooner when possible, called for Damage Control action, notified Sterrett, having a call made to alert Harbor Control....sounding the Collision Alarm.

We drifted to within almost handshaking distance of the Bow Lookout and our Stern Lookout....before we gained power and were able leave the harbor to anchor off shore!

The Ensign was a "Made Man" after that as he had made all the right calls and the Sea Gods smiled on the Ship that day.....and a Captain went on to make Admiral.
SASless is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th Jun 2017, 23:17   #82 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Darkest Surrey
Posts: 4,980
Quote:
Originally Posted by SASless View Post

The Ensign was a "Made Man" after that as he had made all the right calls and the Sea Gods smiled on the Ship that day.....and a Captain went on to make Admiral.
The lucky generals analogy comes to mind, making the call not conerned about doing what rank says but doing what should be and needs to be done.

Some have may have questioned his Cojones before that, after that they just wondered whether made from steel or titanium and how he had grown taller overnight.
racedo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th Jun 2017, 23:22   #83 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Texas
Age: 58
Posts: 4,899
Quote:
Originally Posted by racedo View Post
The lucky generals analogy comes to mind, making the call not conerned about doing what rank says but doing what should be and needs to be done.

Some have may have questioned his Cojones before that, after that they just wondered whether made from steel or titanium and how he had grown taller overnight.
The Ensign did was an OOW is supposed to do. That's why the letter is signed and in his file. (And he done good!)
Lonewolf_50 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20th Jun 2017, 00:21   #84 (permalink)
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: "Deplorable but happy as a drunken Monkey!
Age: 69
Posts: 1,125
I think he needed a change of trousers afterwards.....I was not directly involved in the Chain of Command and I was sweating bullets as it was catastrophe in very slow motion happening.
SASless is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20th Jun 2017, 01:26   #85 (permalink)
Nemo Me Impune Lacessit
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Victoria, Australia.
Posts: 3,742
Caz:
Quote:
With the cargo vessel being on the warship's starboard side, it was the warship's responsibility to give way to the vessel on that side.
, from the very little we know could this not have been a case of the Crystal overtaking the Fitzgerald, which, I think, means the Fitzgerald had right of way?
parabellum is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20th Jun 2017, 04:42   #86 (permalink)


Probationary PPRuNer
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Denver, CO
Posts: 0
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cazalet33 View Post
SASless is right: The flooded compartments were ruptured by the bulbous bow of the cargo vessel which extends for'ard of the bow which is visible above the waterline.

Ironically, the captain of the ship seems to have been figuratively out of his depth as his cabin was crushed with him in it.
Congratulations on an utterly tasteless remark. Can I book you for an enemy's funeral?

I don't know what you have against the US, or why you're even venting in this conversation, but please stop.

You're toxic and aggravating, and only showing your worst here.
rottenray is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20th Jun 2017, 05:21   #87 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Texas
Age: 58
Posts: 4,899
Quote:
Originally Posted by SASless View Post
I think he needed a change of trousers afterwards.....I was not directly involved in the Chain of Command and I was sweating bullets as it was catastrophe in very slow motion happening.
Most collisions at sea (or really strange happenings) happen in slow motion as seen through the eyes of a pilot. The exception is rogue waves, which happen all of a sudden out of loads of much smaller waves. That's an eye opener.
Lonewolf_50 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20th Jun 2017, 09:24   #88 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Tunbridge Wells UK
Age: 71
Posts: 47
Wetbehindears
The merchant ship will ARPA fitted, which will be capable of plotting at least 20 targets at once. The CPA time and distance will be easily available as well as the targets speed and course. Alarms are set by the operator for the CPA limits. The use of AIS for collision avoidance is not a good idea as the information received may be operator set and therefore inaccurate. I've seen a vessel on radar on one side of a TSS and the AIS indicating the vessel is on the other side.
merch is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20th Jun 2017, 11:36   #89 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: North Up
Posts: 367
Quote:
Navy bridge team evaluates each and every target separately in analytical decision making mode. hence large number of persons on the bridge with associated high volume of messages and noise.
That's best explanation for Fitzgerald's blunder that I've seen so far. It also alludes to the non-trivial point that Per the ancient mariner was making.

Combine that crowd scene with a ┴-shaped management structure, together with a watch-keepinf officer who is as incompetent as the Lieutenant on the fo'c'stle of the Tarawa in the video above, and you've got a recipe for the cockups which result.
Cazalet33 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20th Jun 2017, 11:41   #90 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: North Up
Posts: 367
Quote:
The use of AIS for collision avoidance is not a good idea
Agreed.

Where AIS becomes really useful in collision avoidance is by giving you useful information about the identity, intentions and capabilities of the other vessel.

It's very convenient to be able to call that ship by name on Ch16 rather than having to say something like "Vessel on a constant bearing on my Port side, this is the vessel on a constant bearing on your Starboard side, over".
Cazalet33 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20th Jun 2017, 11:44   #91 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: North Up
Posts: 367
Quote:
And he/she must have had a glorious view of a green light and a red light, something like 30m apart, with a white light in the middle of them.
That quite certainly happened. An "Oh shit" moment, one would think.
Cazalet33 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20th Jun 2017, 11:46   #92 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: North Up
Posts: 367
Quote:
from the very little we know could this not have been a case of the Crystal overtaking the Fitzgerald, which, I think, means the Fitzgerald had right of way?
Entirely possible, though it doesn't explain why Fitzgerald got itself into such a tiny CPA that it couldn't or wouldn't avoid a collision.
Cazalet33 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20th Jun 2017, 13:42   #93 (permalink)
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: "Deplorable but happy as a drunken Monkey!
Age: 69
Posts: 1,125
We know the Crystal was equipped withARPA?

We know it was set Up properly?

We know it was actually working?

We know there was someone paying attention to it?

I have done what WET describes....manual "quizzing" individual Radar contacts after seeing them a potential problem both by movement on the Radar and by looking at the AIS data being shown.

I spent most of my watches as the only watch stander.










Quote:
Originally Posted by merch View Post
Wetbehindears
The merchant ship will ARPA fitted, which will be capable of plotting at least 20 targets at once. The CPA time and distance will be easily available as well as the targets speed and course. Alarms are set by the operator for the CPA limits. The use of AIS for collision avoidance is not a good idea as the information received may be operator set and therefore inaccurate. I've seen a vessel on radar on one side of a TSS and the AIS indicating the vessel is on the other side.
SASless is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20th Jun 2017, 15:32   #94 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Tunbridge Wells UK
Age: 71
Posts: 47
ARPA is a SOLAS requirement (annex 16)

Don't know what you mean by ARPA set up properly, but even if the speed and course inputs were incorrect the relative vectors will be correct

We don't know if it was working, if it wasn't, and they more than likely had 2, it would be a major defect.

We don't even know if there was someone on the bridge but there is very high likely hood that there was and the ARPA was being looked at. Its difficult at times to get watch keepers to take their eyes off the radar and look out the window.

Many of us have done manual plotting, either by chinograph pencils or plotting sheets to name a few methods. ARPAS generally do not have reflective plotters.

If you want to get into pissing competition I've been Master of VLCCS (supertankers) for 13 years and on large ships for 30 years.
merch is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20th Jun 2017, 15:39   #95 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Texas
Age: 58
Posts: 4,899
Quote:
Originally Posted by merch View Post
ARPA is a SOLAS requirement (annex 16)

Don't know what you mean by ARPA set up properly, but even if the speed and course inputs were incorrect the relative vectors will be correct

We don't know if it was working, if it wasn't, and they more than likely had 2, it would be a major defect.

We don't even know if there was someone on the bridge but there is very high likely hood that there was and the ARPA was being looked at. Its difficult at times to get watch keepers to take their eyes off the radar and look out the window.

Many of us have done manual plotting, either by chinograph pencils or plotting sheets to name a few methods. ARPAS generally do not have reflective plotters.

If you want to get into pissing competition I've been Master of VLCCS (supertankers) for 13 years and on large ships for 30 years.
Thanks for offering up some useful insight. Question: how well adhered to are the SOLAS requirements (such as ARPA) in your experience?
1. Generally everyone complies?
2. most comply?
3. some?
4. few?

Not something I am familiar with, so am curious. The various air travel and cargo transport requirements have their variations in adherence (a pet peeve of most in the PPRuNe/aviation community is the hazardous materials/dangerous materials rules ...)
Lonewolf_50 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20th Jun 2017, 16:14   #96 (permalink)
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: "Deplorable but happy as a drunken Monkey!
Age: 69
Posts: 1,125
Merch,

No need to get humpy.....you were not on the bridge of the Crystal thus have no way of knowing what the actual situation was the night of the collision. None of us were.

My questions were fair and relevant.

Your response for information purposes was helpful but does not speak for what the situation was at the time of the Collision.

If you want a pissing contest you will have to go somewhere else.

Stick to answering the questions if you wish....add inputs from your experience of many years and that would be very useful in the discussions.

The US Navy has four inquiries of its own going as I understand it, the Japanese have at least one of its own, and I would bet the Crystal's owners/insurance carrier has one of its own.

In time there shall be a definitive report issued....and until then....we are limited to a discussion of possible events and factors.

Inputs from experienced and knowledgeable folks is a good thing here.....but don't get insulted if someone asks questions.


Are these the Requirements to which you refer?

https://mcanet.mcga.gov.uk/public/c4...es/Annex16.htm


If so...as I read it.....ARPA is only required on one system and the other system must have ATA or ARPA.

Is it possible that the Crystal's Electronic Suite may have been unable to track all the targets present that night?

What if the Primary system was Unserviceable for some reason and the Ship only had ATA capability....how would that figure into it?

Is it possible the Crystal could have had equipment issues that might have led to the Bridge Crew not receiving adequate Traffic Information?
SASless is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20th Jun 2017, 16:29   #97 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Tunbridge Wells UK
Age: 71
Posts: 47
Lonewolf

The vast majority comply. I can really only speak in detail about tankers.

If vessels are trading to "reputable" countries they will need to comply with SOLAS, plus local and company regulations. I'm sure that trading to Japan they will comply. The vessel will be subject to Port State Control inspections at many ports it calls at, plus port approval before arriving. The ship will also be subject to internal and external Audits for ISM compliance. These are similar to ISO audits.
If the vessels trades to more dubious countries the standards will be a lot more lax. Similar to the airline industry I would think.
merch is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20th Jun 2017, 16:35   #98 (permalink)
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: south of Cirencester, north of Lyneham
Age: 70
Posts: 1,234
Seems to me that despite the speculation, there is one obvious conclusion that can be drawn at this stage, viz: 'Some body or bodies fu**ed up'.

Beyond that one cannot really go on the present evidence.
radeng is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20th Jun 2017, 16:35   #99 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Texas
Age: 58
Posts: 4,899
@merch, thanks. There was a thread here on JB a few months ago about the loss of an ore carrier, it's nice to see some of the maritime pros break cover and contribute.
Lonewolf_50 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20th Jun 2017, 16:36   #100 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Tunbridge Wells UK
Age: 71
Posts: 47
SAS sorry if I came across "humpy"

We can only guess what happened. It doesn't stop the theories though.

As an additional input the merchant ship is fitted with a VDR voyage data recorder which will record bridge conversation, rudder movements,VHF conversations etc.
merch is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT. The time now is 14:50.


1996-2012 The Professional Pilots Rumour Network

SEO by vBSEO 3.6.1