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Old 19th May 2017, 17:53   #1 (permalink)
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Lee's last stand



The last of four Confederate monuments New Orleans Mayor Mitch Landrieu wants removed from public property...there this should keep you entertained this Friday afternoon...

Last edited by BlankBox; 19th May 2017 at 21:22.
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Old 19th May 2017, 20:43   #2 (permalink)
 
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Winston Smith lives!

After an excellent landing etc...
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Old 19th May 2017, 21:45   #3 (permalink)
 
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Let it be removed from Public property and transported to a Private Museum where it belongs.

If people wish to go see it then let them pay to see it,
if people wish to be offended by it then let them pay to be offended by it.
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Old 19th May 2017, 22:09   #4 (permalink)
 
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Here's another one about statues being removed: South Africa removes Shaka Zulu statue from airport - BBC News.
It appears that the original portrayed him as too peaceful and that the replacement is to show him more as the blood-thirsty tyrant that he was. Oh, and don't forget that the airport is named after him.

Funny how things are seen differently in different places.
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Old 19th May 2017, 22:22   #5 (permalink)
 
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Being replaced with one of Stalin, no doubt.
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Old 19th May 2017, 23:12   #6 (permalink)
 
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Attempts to expunge history are not uncommon.

Here in Ireland it's been a feature of post independence reorganisation;

1908 - Queen Victoria Statue, Leinster House, Dublin - Architecture of Dublin City, Lost Buildings of Ireland - Archiseek - Irish Architecture

Leinster House, formerly the home of the Royal Dublin Society (RDS) (they got turfed out post independence, but that's another story) is now the seat of the Houses of the Oireachtas (Irish Parliament). Albert's statue has been moved around the corner.

The "post factual", revisionist history world is nothing new.

Still, Vic was afforded a more dignified removal than Nelson

http://archiseek.com/2009/1809-nelso...ell-st-dublin/

And yes, more than a whiff of either Winston Smith or the Taliban about it.

JAS

Last edited by Just a spotter; 19th May 2017 at 23:25.
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Old 19th May 2017, 23:31   #7 (permalink)
 
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Let's just tear down all Monuments and Memorials shall we.

If such things are offensive for any reason to anyone....no matter how few and how slight the offense felt....why not.

Where do we draw the line with this crap?

What you think Racedo?

If someone lodges a protest....should we just rollover and immediately remove the "Offensive" thing to make them happy?
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Old 19th May 2017, 23:58   #8 (permalink)
 
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History should not be repeated nor even thought of ???

Be like ISIS and get rid of anything that makes us think about good and evil in the eyes of the beholder.

Next we should also burn our old books as well, since what we have today must be true.

I should burn my old pictures of my great gandpappys in case they might have rustled cattle or stole horses from whomever.
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Old 20th May 2017, 01:14   #9 (permalink)
 
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Desecrating monuments, defacing statues, and altering historical documents was a popular pastime in ancient Egypt. The Romans obviously thought this was a good idea too. Successive waves of liberators or conquerors around the world have kept up the tradition to the present day. Strangely it seems to be those who consider themselves to be of a leftish, liberal, outlook who seem to be most intent on imposing their view of what is the acceptable face of history. Those statues and monuments should remain as a constant reminder of the lessons of history, a thorn to prick the conscience of those who seek to sanitise the past.
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Old 20th May 2017, 03:36   #10 (permalink)
 
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Maybe Freemont will take him.
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Old 20th May 2017, 06:55   #11 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lomapaseo
Be like ISIS and get rid of anything that makes us think about good and evil in the eyes of the beholder.
The tone of this post suggests it was written under the assumption that the people who support public rememberence - of what those who are offended by them feel was very much 'ISIS' like treatment - are on the 'good' side of of the 'good and evil' equation'.
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Old 20th May 2017, 09:14   #12 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SASless View Post
Let's just tear down all Monuments and Memorials shall we.

If such things are offensive for any reason to anyone....no matter how few and how slight the offense felt....why not.

Where do we draw the line with this crap?

What you think Racedo?

If someone lodges a protest....should we just rollover and immediately remove the "Offensive" thing to make them happy?
Dunno, but didn't US Military destroy statues of Saddam in 2003, should statues of Hitler be allowed to still stand in Germany.

What about statues of Jimmy Saville or Michael Jackson.
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Old 20th May 2017, 09:16   #13 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by G0ULI View Post
Strangely it seems to be those who consider themselves to be of a leftish, liberal, outlook who seem to be most intent on imposing their view of what is the acceptable face of history. Those statues and monuments should remain as a constant reminder of the lessons of history, a thorn to prick the conscience of those who seek to sanitise the past.
But wasn't the erection of statues in the first place an intent of people to impose their views on others ?
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Old 20th May 2017, 09:19   #14 (permalink)
 
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Originally Posted by Just a spotter View Post
Attempts to expunge history are not uncommon.

Here in Ireland it's been a feature of post independence reorganisation;

1908 - Queen Victoria Statue, Leinster House, Dublin - Architecture of Dublin City, Lost Buildings of Ireland - Archiseek - Irish Architecture

Leinster House, formerly the home of the Royal Dublin Society (RDS) (they got turfed out post independence, but that's another story) is now the seat of the Houses of the Oireachtas (Irish Parliament). Albert's statue has been moved around the corner.

The "post factual", revisionist history world is nothing new.

Still, Vic was afforded a more dignified removal than Nelson

1809 - Nelson's Pillar, O'Connell St., Dublin - Architecture of Dublin City, Lost Buildings of Ireland - Archiseek - Irish Architecture

And yes, more than a whiff of either Winston Smith or the Taliban about it.

JAS
So a country who obtains Independence to decide its own affairs has no right to remove statues inflicted on them by someone whom they view as their oppressors ?

So former Warsaw pact countrys should keep Stalin's statues up................
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Old 20th May 2017, 09:32   #15 (permalink)
 
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FWIW the original story referred to by BlankBox has even been doing the rounds this side of the pond for a few weeks now...

https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2...es-new-orleans

This isn't "my" history or my politics and almost all of my knowledge of the Civil war is thanks to Ken Burns's series so I'm interested in what the present/learned opinion in the States really is on Lee nowadays - was he a victim of circumstances who simply through family loyalty felt he had no choice but to fight for the south or was he motivated by a deep belief in "The Cause" and all that went with it? It's only a few decades back that the likes of Ted Turner ( yes I know there's the whole Atlanta connection) poured a lot of money into a film that in parts almost deified Lee ....the end credits of that film comment that Lee was "perhaps the most beloved General in American history" - now his statue is being removed............

Last edited by wiggy; 20th May 2017 at 10:52.
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Old 20th May 2017, 20:13   #16 (permalink)
 
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My understanding is Lee and so many others saw it more along the lines of a State's Rights issue and we must understand the thinking of that time in history.

One tended to see One's loyalty was to to family, God, State and Country in that order.

Lee disliked slavery, did not support secession and turned down command of Union forces saying he would not draw his Sword against his children, neighbors, and his beloved Virginia.

A very good Read:

"Clouds of Glory" by Michael Korda.

ISBN: 978-0-06-211629-1
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Old 20th May 2017, 20:58   #17 (permalink)
 
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I have heard that Lee manumitted his slaves before taking command of the Army of Virginia.

After an excellent landing etc...
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Old 20th May 2017, 23:11   #18 (permalink)
 
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Originally Posted by SASless View Post
One tended to see One's loyalty was to to family, God, State and Country in that order.

Sam Houston saw it differently and stayed with the Union.

Majority of Military command with experience joined the Secessionists and that greatly assisted in the early part but the lack of an Industrial base was their downfall.

UK seems to have been very close to recognising the secessionists at one stage.
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Old 21st May 2017, 00:40   #19 (permalink)
 
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For those who don't know, Colonel Robert E Lee was General Winfield Scott's choice to command the Union Armies when the Civil War/Rebellion broke out. He was summoned to Washington from where he was stationed at the time in Texas. He was regarded by most people in the Army as one of the best, if not the best, officers of his class.

Lee had to make a very difficult choice between defending his home (Virginia) and invading it. He was related by marriage to George Washington and the Lee's of the Revolutionary War fame. He chose to defend his home.

As soon as he did, that meant that he broke his oath of office as an officer in the United States Army.
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Old 21st May 2017, 01:39   #20 (permalink)
 
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Racedo,

Until Gettysburg....the Union had not won a Battle and had the South won that day (and Vicksburg not fallen at the same time) that is probably what would have happened(the British recognizing the Confederacy) and History would be very much different today.

With a Southern Victory at Gettysburg....Lee would have chased the Union Army back to north and been able to take Washington.

With the Union victory at Vicksburg and Gettysburg, combined with the Blockade of Southern Ports and the North's advantage in Industrial capacity....it was all down hill after that for the Southern Forces.

We are fortunate to have so many of those Battlefields preserved, some very much as they were when the battles occurred....touring those sites and studying how they played out is very informative.

Standing at the far end of the Union Line where Chamberlin and the Maine Infantry repulsed the Southern attack on the Second Day of Gettysburg is one of the amazing places I have ever been. Knowing what happened there and the effect it had on the battle cannot be grasped until you stand there on the ground itself.

Probably the one place that really stands out....is the "Angle" where Pickett's Attack was repulsed by the Union forces on the Third Day. Having Ancestors that were in the North Carolina Units that Day....makes it all the more memorable.

If there is such a thing as Hallowed Ground in the United States....that bit of Pennsylvania soil has to be it. The fate of our Nation was decided there that day.
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