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Old 7th May 2017, 08:53   #41 (permalink)
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Religion is not the cause of war, people are the cause of war, primarily because of their zealous lack of tolerance of the views of others.

I presume by that, you include statements such as "ours is the one true religion" or "God is on our side" ?
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Old 7th May 2017, 08:53   #42 (permalink)
 
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I rather like this man's perspective on this subject...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8r-e2NDSTuE
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Old 7th May 2017, 08:58   #43 (permalink)
 
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When criminal charges can be considered against an individual who dismisses a concept for which there is zero empirical evidence it speaks volumes of the society behind such laws.

It amuses me to read claims of lack of tolerance from unbelievers in such circumstances. Stand back folks and see the wider picture.

Moreover, such antics are not so far removed from actions of old...
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Old 7th May 2017, 09:04   #44 (permalink)
 
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Originally Posted by johngreen
I rather like this man's perspective on this subject...

And his Aussie counterpart.

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Old 7th May 2017, 09:11   #45 (permalink)
 
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Originally Posted by B Fraser View Post
I presume by that, you include statements such as "ours is the one true religion" or "God is on our side" ?
Indeed, in my post I purposely did not make reference to "God" because of the immediate association with specific religions. I am personally in no doubt that there is a God, however I also recognise that other religions use different terminology.

They are welcome to use a name that I do not recognise and I respect their right to do so. Equally I expect them to acknowledge my right to hold my views.

If one accepts the principle that there is "only one true God" then it is not difficult to understand that all believers are united by one God. This is not such a difficult concept if one also recognises that "man" is imperfect and often will not tolerate the imperfections of others.

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Old 7th May 2017, 09:23   #46 (permalink)
 
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Why would there only be one 'true' god?
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Old 7th May 2017, 09:27   #47 (permalink)

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Originally Posted by Blues&twos View Post
Why would there only be one 'true' god?
Because otherwise people would have to live together in tolerance and respect and wouldn't have an external excuse for tribal wars?
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Old 7th May 2017, 09:35   #48 (permalink)
 
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I am personally in no doubt that there is a God, however I also recognise that other religions use different terminology.
Where belief is underpinned by faith and lacking empirical evidence there has to be, by definition, doubt.
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Old 7th May 2017, 09:50   #49 (permalink)
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If you want a perspective on how well this is going down within Ireland, have a look at the posts on this local forum. The folks at Atheist Ireland are going "good, let's have a test case to show how silly this is". But it might not come to that - all there is is a complaint from a member of the public and a stock "we're looking into it" response from the Garda.

If this guy was still alive, would someone lodge a complaint about him?


Last edited by bnt; 7th May 2017 at 10:06.
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Old 7th May 2017, 09:56   #50 (permalink)
 
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Loggerheads

Absolutely,

As an Engineer (and pilot), having faith is completely alien to established knowledge which requires complete understanding of a given state.

To then accept that it is possible for a new state to exist based on faith is unthinkable unless something else has been internalised.

So...for me

"Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Hebrews 11:1 King James Version (KJV)

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Old 7th May 2017, 10:07   #51 (permalink)
 
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Thanks for that ImageGear, whilst I don't consider the unverified written word as evidence, or even meaningful support, I can identify with...the substance of things hoped for.

Indeed I subscribe to the belief that is what is behind the majority of believers beliefs.
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Old 7th May 2017, 10:08   #52 (permalink)
 
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Originally Posted by Krystal n chips View Post
You do get, well, rather emotional and confused at times.

Cast your mind back a few months, to January in fact, and you may just recall this " And most importantly, we will be protected by God ".....

Of course, if you really want to see religious fervour, the UK has a plethora of shrines where the faithful can, and do, pay homage every weekend....I recommend Man Utd vs Man City, Celtic vs Rangers, Tottenham vs Arsenal and Millwall vs any other team you care to name, in this respect.

The above may be a little bit too dry for you however...
I find church and soccer equally boring but if were I forced to choose one or the other to attend I'd pick church because..

1) First and foremost, a church service is shorter than a soccer game and my favorite part of either is when it's over.

2) In church, when someone is miraculously healed as told in stories (or at the rowdier tent revival type gatherings, in person) at least there's an attempt to explain how the miracle happened, supernatural/divine though it may be.

On the other hand, in soccer when one of the drama queens rolling around on the ground feigning excruciating pain and injury suddenly jumps up to play on, seemingly unaffected and not losing a step, the soccer congregation is so thoroughly suckered they don't even blink, let alone question, witnessing the apparent miracle of "healing" they just beheld. Even pro wrestling has better fakery and less credulous fans.

3) In church, it's quiet enough to tune out what's going on and let your mind wander to pass the time. One can contemplate the history of stained glass for instance, or history of glass-making in general. How many trees does it take to make the average pew? Do the colored scarves the preacher wears actually mean something or are they merely decoration? Would the Catholics down the street overreact if, as a practical joke, one were to substitute some sort of solid tear gas sticks and high potency sinsemilla in place of their incense they wave around, or would they take it in stride and retaliate with Holy Water filled super soakers. If I'm hit with avenging Catholic Holy Water, would I sizzle and melt? Does my church offer a counter-spell, and how much does it cost? You get the idea. You can think in church, or conversely, completely avoid thinking because if you close your eyes to nod off for a bit of a catnap you'll be seen as being super-serious about saying a silent prayer and nobody will bug you as long as you don't snore.

In soccer, it's impossible to contemplate anything, not even one's own navel, because drunken yobs (obviously hallucinating that they're a witness to something worthy of such outbursts) are scream-shout-singing in your ears destroying the last part one's brain the boring game itself didn't numb. If someone is sitting there with their head lolling and eyes closed it's because they're so piss-drunk they're comatose if they weren't already KOed by a random, rabbit-punching hooligan trying to create his own excitement to make up for the lack thereof on the pitch.

4) It never bothered me in the least if someone tries to tell me I'm going to hell after I fall off the perch. I don't care what someone thinks of my chances at an afterlife because I know they're just guessing. Who knows, they may even be right.

But someone trying to convince me that soccer is "The Beautiful Game" or worthy of being excited about I know is seriously misguided if not completely unhinged, and that's not guessing. i know they're wrong. Just because there's an adult version of this schoolyard recess kickball activity involving a shitheap of money promoting it as such doesn't counter the fact that in sports, an agonizingly slow and low scoring contest that requires the smallest of skillsets compared to others doesn't equate to "Beautiful" no matter how many times it's repeated. Neither does being simple to understand and easy to follow thanks to to big bouncy ball. Sometimes soccer fans even celebrate ties, which would be like Church goers celebrating Jesus feeding only 2,500 of the 5,000. Just writing about it is almost putting me to sleep.
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Old 7th May 2017, 10:10   #53 (permalink)
 
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Instead he blames God for all the world's evils, so what does he believe?
Mr Fry was asked a hypothetical question; what would he say to God if he found himself at the pearly gates?
In that context why is God not ultimatly responsible for both good and bad?

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Old 7th May 2017, 10:24   #54 (permalink)
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The Gay Byrne Stephen Fry interview was some time ago - January 2015 I believe?
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Old 7th May 2017, 10:39   #55 (permalink)
 
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PukinDog
I laughed, did you post that from the back pews of the Nave this morning, the sermon must have been really boring?.

Glad to see you're not taking all this stuff too seriously...

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Old 7th May 2017, 10:51   #56 (permalink)
 
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To become personally aware of the presence of a Deity whether it be through oral, visual or other sensory communication, and to follow a lifestyle that acknowledges the best values espoused by that association, should be commendable.

Some are able to do that without the need for a hovering god-figure. I call it thinking for yourself and standing on your own two feet.
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Old 7th May 2017, 10:54   #57 (permalink)
 
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It is pretty narcissistic to assume that God loves us when there is clear evidence that there many people, including believers, that if does exist, he clearly doesn't love as much.
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Old 7th May 2017, 11:28   #58 (permalink)
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A subject close to my heart because B/ I'm getting towards being top of the seniority list. But A/ Because I spent so many years writing The Perfect Code that I think about such matters nearer to hourly than daily.


The sequel to my book was to contain a major argument between the protagonist and a being that is spending time in a universe he helped to create. (They happen to have a bond that extends beyond this lifetime.) Both he and the 400 or so folk that are monitoring the evolution of mankind, could end all suffering in the blink of an eye. But they don't. The reason I give in the first book is that the creation of new souls from a green-field site - a clean sheet - so to speak, is vastly more important than the brief time a very limited suffering is experienced by any individual. Limited? Hard to imagine it being worse than some unfortunates' burdens. But imagine being in a state where there is no such limit on suffering, either in the intensity or duration. Hard to dwell on such concepts without experiencing extreme dread.

One of the main reasons the sequel to my book has not been finished is my own bewilderment at man's inhumanity to man. How can I argue for non-intervention when the cruelty, especially to children, is allowed to continue?

I took considerable advice from keef (who was kind enough to work through the entire 700 pages for me) about The Atonement, a cornerstone of Christian faith. I did this because I imagined one of the reasons several visitors to this world allowed themselves to be subject to such severe suffering was to learn just what pain was like. They had no idea, since the three main species of interest on this planet had evolved pain as part of a feedback system for the protection of their mortal forms. Clearly a deterrent that is not working to this day.

The story has this universe maliciously triggered a tad too early - with some chaotic results, but the concept is there was an original design but what resulted in the chaos was millions of species, many containing all the information needed to evolve their way back to perfection.

It started as a story, but the more I built on it, the more sense it made. It's argued that we humans have so many bad flaws that an intelligent designer could not have played a part in our creation. No point labouring on the concept, you'll get the point about us only being part-evolved back to perfection.

Just a quick mention, and not for the first time, but Darwin agonised over the eye. If he could have known that now, the main criticism of the eye's design, is not only explained, but shown to be bewilderingly more 'intelligent' than could have been imagined by the most creative researcher. It is a truly breathtaking finding.

I sit most nights, sometimes 'till dawn, reading and watching lectures about particle physics and cosmology with a particular interest in what spacetime is made of. At first, many years ago, I let the physics bias me against a creator. Not totally, but fairly strongly. Now however, the more I listen, and mostly to the leading names in good universities, the more I find creation necessary rather than just desirable, or indeed a convenient answer to what we don't know.

What I don't know is where such a creator might be. The idea of existing outside of a relativistic spacetime presents more problems than it solves. Well at least to a creation with a tiny brain.

Last edited by Loose rivets; 7th May 2017 at 11:48.
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Old 7th May 2017, 11:39   #59 (permalink)


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Originally Posted by ImageGear View Post
If one accepts the principle that there is "only one true God" then it is not difficult to understand that all believers are united by one God.
I can't accept that principle, if for no other reason than the "one true god" allegedlly chose to reveal himself in three different guises and impart three incompatible messages to one bunch of stupefied goat herders in the desert.

And it's blindingly obvious that all believers are NOT united by one god.
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Old 7th May 2017, 11:57   #60 (permalink)
 
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I happily accept that there is an afterlife that I term Heaven.

It has already happened before. Up until I was born I had no concept of the world and what it was.

Emeritus.
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