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Old 18th May 2017, 17:22   #421 (permalink)
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KenV,


Yes, but what you say is totally irrelevant w.r.t. astronomy. If for example, I want to photograph the horsehead nebula, I do not need to know how far away it is. All I have to do is tell my telescope where I am, what the time is, where a few guide stars are and where it should then point. Job done. Half a vector works perfectly well, even for the Hubble Space Telescope.


Yes, the sky will appear to move over time for the observer however the relative positions of the stars will change much more slowly. We are able to model that quite easily so it would not be too difficult to adjust for the time at which the "holy signpost" was given.


Exactly how did I use a geocentric model ?


Yes, Carl Sagan had to use an alternative model. He had know way of knowing where the finder would be. Not only did Voyager contain a reference to certain pulsars, it also had the means for the finder to determine the point in time that the probe was launched. A civilisation that could work out both the age of the probe and the positions of the pulsars at that point in time could solve the riddle. For a terrestrial guide to where the other earths could be found, that would not be necessary. I think you know this only too well and are muddying the waters.


Anyway, the wait continues for evidence of where these mythical other earths are to be found. It could take some time.
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Old 18th May 2017, 18:03   #422 (permalink)
 
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Originally Posted by Lonewolf_50 View Post
....The imbedding into the political began with Constantine(313, Edict of Milan through 325 council of Nicaea) and took about 50 years to become formal when the Emperor Theodosius made it his religion(380ish?), and by that imperial fiat the state religion.
FWIW, the timeline went like this:
312 Constantine becomes Emperor. He attributes this to the Christian God because many of his army's officers were Christian.
313 Constantine issues Edict of Milan making Christianity officially legal.
325 Constantine organizes and presides over First Council of Nicea to establish official Christian dogma
330 Constantine moves the Empire's capital to Byzantium, later Constantinople and now Istanbul.
380 Constantine issues Edict of Thessolonica, making Nicean Christianity (there were multiple Christian religions at the time) the official state church of the Empire, with its headquarters in Rome.
537 Emperor Justinian for the first time appoints the Bishop of Rome (the Pope). This practice would continue for over a century, cementing the supremacy of "The Roman Church" in the Western World, especially after the Eastern World began falling to the Arabs/Muslims around 640. Further cementing Rome's supremacy was Constantine's (and his successor's) land grants to the Roman Church. By the time of Justinian, the Roman Church was the largest land owner in the entire Empire.

Last edited by KenV; 18th May 2017 at 19:11.
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Old 18th May 2017, 18:46   #423 (permalink)
 
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Originally Posted by B Fraser View Post
KenV,
Yes, but what you say is totally irrelevant w.r.t. astronomy. If for example, I want to photograph the horsehead nebula, I do not need to know how far away it is. All I have to do is tell my telescope where I am, what the time is, where a few guide stars are and where it should then point. Job done. Half a vector works perfectly well, even for the Hubble Space Telescope.
Knowing an object's direction and knowing its location are two entirely different things. You can see and take a picture of something knowing its direction relative to you. On the surface of Earth you pretty much know an object's location if you can see it since you can only see so far (at eye height, the horizon is less than 3 miles away). Space is an entirely different matter. When you point to Mars you are pointing to an object on average about .000023 light years away. When you point to Andromeda you are pointing to an object that is more than 2,537,000 light years away. That's ELEVEN orders of magnitude difference! (Very roughly the difference between the diameter of a human hair and the diameter of the Sun.) Clearly providing half a vector does not define a location. And when you point to Andromeda, you are not pointing to where it is, but rather to where it was more than two and half million years ago. That's well before our first human ancestor, Homo Erectus, appeared.

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Exactly how did I use a geocentric model ?
Exactly how? By referencing all your cosmological "locations" relative to Earth. (i.e. your coordinate system is centered on Earth. More precisely you are using an ecliptic coordinate system with its center being Earth.) That is the very definition of geocentrism and is consistent with Babylonian, Egyptian, and Greek astronomy and Aristotle's cosmology. You correctly note that Sagan's plaque used an entirely different coordinate system AND (as I noted in my previous post) provided a time reference. That is the only way to provide a meaningful galactic location.

Last edited by KenV; 18th May 2017 at 19:27.
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Old 18th May 2017, 19:14   #424 (permalink)
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And when you point to Andromeda, you are not pointing to where it is, but rather to where it was more than two and half million years ago. That's well before our first human ancestor, Homo Erectus, appeared.

A supreme being would know that too given that some believe that he also created the finite speed of light. Therefore, the apparent position in the sky of an alternative earth would be required e.g. just two dimensions.


I gave a direction for Mars based on where the observers (i.e. we) would be. That does not imply a geocentric belief system. I could have used the centre of the sun, the middle of our galaxy or somewhere out by Barnard's star as a baseline but would not have been as useful, would it ?


So where's this proof then or do we still have to wait ?
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Old 18th May 2017, 19:50   #425 (permalink)
 
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I gave a direction for Mars based on where the observers (i.e. we) would be. That does not imply a geocentric belief system.
Gave a direction? Once again, a direction is not at all a location

Geocentric belief system? I said nothing of a "belief system". I said you used a geocentric coordinate system. The same system used by the Babylonians, the Egyptians, and Greeks, and consistent with Aristotle's cosmology. And such a coordinate system cannot be used to provide a galactic position.

Separately, if you want to call cosmology a "belief system," go ahead. But I think Steven Hawking and some others would disagree.

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So where's this proof then or do we still have to wait ?
Proof? Of scripture? Scripture has no proof. None. Just lots and lots of anecdotal evidence. Based on the content and the source of the evidence YOU get to decide how much credence you are willing to give to such anecdotal evidence. You give no credence. Fine. I give quite a bit of credence. Others give lots more. That's the thing about religion. It's an individual thing. A "church" is an organization (often a state created and/or state sponsored organization) that tries to convince you how much credence to give to such anecdotal evidence and to which parts.

Last edited by KenV; 18th May 2017 at 20:02.
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Old 18th May 2017, 19:53   #426 (permalink)
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You continue to play word games while dodging the central question.


oh well.....
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Old 18th May 2017, 20:05   #427 (permalink)
 
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You continue to play word games while dodging the central question.
Which "central question" have I dodged? I will endeavor to answer.
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Old 18th May 2017, 21:12   #428 (permalink)
 
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I gave a direction for Mars based on where the observers (i.e. we) would be..... I could have used the centre of the sun, the middle of our galaxy....
Wow. That's a neat trick. Carl Sagan's team did not even attempt a galactocentric coordinate system. I'm impressed.
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Old 18th May 2017, 21:28   #429 (permalink)
 
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Thanks very much for that. That was enlightening and appreciated. I do have two questions though.
1. Did not this thread begin by decrying at great length the "blasphemy" law in Ireland and how that law proves how repressive "religion" is? How does that compare with what you wrote above concerning the Republic of Ireland.
2. Does not France prohibit the wearing of religious articles (such as head coverings by muslims, turbans by Sikhs, stars of David by Jews, crucifixes by Catholics, etc etc) in its public schools? How does that compare with what you wrote above concerning France's right to "free exercise of religion."
You don't mean the country that has "In God We Trust" on its currency, do you? I think it's hard to find any country that truly manages to keep state and religion separate.
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Old 18th May 2017, 22:10   #430 (permalink)
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I did give an accurate location for Mars regarding its' position in the sky.
I knew where I was when I went.
Off to the place I'd been sent.
The journey was long
And the planet was gone
Since I'd found out that spacetime was bent.

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.... I could have used the centre of the sun,

Mmm . . . rather a wobbly centre-point.
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Old 19th May 2017, 00:40   #431 (permalink)
 
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We manage to use the Earth as a reference frame despite it wobbling all over the place too.
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Old 19th May 2017, 06:35   #432 (permalink)
 
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Originally Posted by KenV View Post
Which "central question" have I dodged? I will endeavor to answer.
KenV: "I know of only one modern nation that prohibits it while simultaneously protecting religious expression.
Batco:KenV, Do tell.
KenV: 'I did'
Batco: No you didn't. See post 410.

And still not answered. But I'll try and address your counter-questions beginning with Ireland.

Yes this thread did begin by decrying the "blasphemy" law in Ireland and how that law proves how repressive "religion" is? How is that at odds with their constitution? Society/a nation is not just an outcome of a set of laws. So in the case of Ireland, while their constitution guarantees freedom of conscience and prohibits the establishment of (a) religeon, they also have laws (and customs) against offending people. In the case of Fry, a complaint was made that he had offended. I suspect that in the USA there are laws limiting freedom of speech (lies, incitement, obscenity etc).

On the point about customs also playing a role in the formation of nations, on this side of the Atlantic we are not fully convinced by the US's claims to the separation of state and religion. In addition to the 'In God We Trust' on your currency, we wonder when a US President will have the courage to dispense with the, now customary, 'God bless America!' atthe end of addresses.

France does prohibit the wearing of religious articles and signs in its public (meaning state) buildings. They reconcile this with the freedom of conscience primarily to protect those whose 'conscience' is yet to mature (ie minors in schools). And also by the fact that some signs can/have provoked disorder.

That said, you probably won't find those answers convincing. However, I am not Irish, (nor French), or legally trained. Glad Australia passed the test (although I'm not Australian either).

Regards
Batco

Last edited by BATCO; 19th May 2017 at 08:12.
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Old 19th May 2017, 13:37   #433 (permalink)
 
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When did Scientology get hijacked, and by which state?
Oh SNAP!

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Old 19th May 2017, 16:05   #434 (permalink)
 
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The hole gets deeper.

The Russian Orthodox Church is a creation of an "atheist" state, is it?
Oh my. The Russian Orthodox church has its historical beginnings in the 9th century. By tradition it was founded by the Apostle Andrew. I don't know where you are getting your information from, but before the Mongol period its leaders was appointed by the Emperor in Constantinople. So yeah, it's basic dogma was determined by the Emperor and its leadership appointed by the Emperor. So an organ of the State from a very early period.

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Churches shouldn't be equated with religion?
NO! A church is a religious organization. Many of them are organs of the State. Many many religions or not organized into a church.

Last edited by KenV; 19th May 2017 at 17:42.
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Old 19th May 2017, 16:10   #435 (permalink)
 
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When did Scientology get hijacked, and by which state?
. Oh my. You really went there? Has Scientology "gained traction?" No. Scientology is only a few decades old and is essentially where Christianity was in its first century. To the vast majority of folks back then Christianity was a weird cult and its adherents dangerous cultists who were officially banned and persecuted. In the beginning it was not a "church" as it was very loosely organized with many different groups having quite different practices and doctrines. Scientology today is seen by the vast majority of folks as a scam cult and is officially listed as a "dangerous cult" by a number of governments. It took Christianity a few centuries to "gain traction" but when it did the state took control by first establishing "official" dogma and eventually appointing its leadership, making it an organ of the State. Will Scientology gain enough traction to become an organ of the state? Seems unlikely. Further, Scientology is based in the US, where a state religion is prohibited.

Similarly, in the first century of its history Mormonism was a cult. The US government literally waged war against them in the Utah War. Mormons are now generally accepted and in some quarters respected. But they constitute a rather small minority (about 1.6%) and have not really gained traction. But when Mormons first moved west to the Salt Lake basin, the church initially was the state. That lasted only a short period as more non Mormons moved in during and after the California Gold Rush. Will the Mormon church gain enough traction nationally to become an organ of the state? In the US that cannot happen as that is formally prohibited. But what about in other countries where state religions are not prohibited? Could Mormonism become a state religion? Seems unlikely as they remain a small minority essentially everywhere. But who knows?

Last edited by KenV; 19th May 2017 at 17:45.
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Old 19th May 2017, 16:48   #436 (permalink)


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Originally Posted by KenV View Post
?..an organ of the State from a very early period.
I agree, the Russian Orthodox Church was and is an organ of the state. A state you describe as "atheist". You don't see any contradiction in that?

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Many many religions or not organized into a church.
Which ones are they?
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Old 19th May 2017, 16:55   #437 (permalink)


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The only difference between a cult like Scientology and more mainstream religions is one of scale and penetration. The mainstream religions are more deeply embedded in society and are considered more acceptable.

As for governments, yours recognises Scientology as a religion.
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Old 19th May 2017, 17:35   #438 (permalink)
 
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...On the point about customs also playing a role in the formation of nations, on this side of the Atlantic we are not fully convinced by the US's claims to the separation of state and religion. In addition to the 'In God We Trust' on your currency, we wonder when a US President will have the courage to dispense with the, now customary, 'God bless America!' atthe end of addresses.
"Separation of state and religion?" The term is separation of church and state. An established religion is a church and the government is prohibited from establishing religion. But it is required to protect the free exercise of religion, and no, it cannot separate itself from that which it protects. If the state separated itself from religion it would have to protect its citizens from religion, which is counter to its mandate. It's mandate is freedom OF religion, not freedom FROM religion. The motto "In God We Trust" was adopted in 1956 to affirm the government's obligation to protect religious liberty, not to establish religion.
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Old 20th May 2017, 02:36   #439 (permalink)
 
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But that discriminates against religions which have more than one deity. Perhaps it should be "In God(s) We Trust".

Except I don't, a right dodgy bunch all trying to impose their beliefs on everyone else.
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Old 20th May 2017, 05:58   #440 (permalink)
 
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One man's reflection on whether there is a God.

"In the month of May 1945, I faced the stark reality of life for the first time. I emerged unscathed but my beliefs did not. There is no God in either spirit or substance, only a Devil and that Devil is mankind."

Dr Andrew Matthews writing of his experiences in Belsen from April 1945.
Remembering Belsen: The Price of Assistance - Holocaust Educational Trust - Holocaust Educational Trust Blog

So, no God, only ourselves to blame
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