PPRuNe Forums


Jet Blast Topics that don't fit the other forums. Rules of Engagement apply.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 17th Feb 2017, 07:32   #21 (permalink)
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Hampshire
Age: 70
Posts: 360
5000 metres: If you seriously believe the comment you have quoted consists of "pejorative phrases", you have a very narrow view of the world.
The post containing that quote is post #3 by the way. I feel a little less clueless now!
KelvinD is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17th Feb 2017, 08:15   #22 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Currently within the EU
Posts: 304
Quote:
If they had a problem on seating they should have pre booked their seats but hey that would have cost them more money and there in lies the problem with such people.
Applies equally to family groups who object to being split up because they didn't pre book. They are 'such people' too. Is that pejorative ?
Sallyann1234 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17th Feb 2017, 08:24   #23 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: on the beach
Age: 61
Posts: 1,984
Quote:
The flight is absolutely on limits and any delay in TLV risks unwelcome extension into discretion.
Do you want to give me this in English please?
Evanelpus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17th Feb 2017, 08:59   #24 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Do I come here often?
Posts: 700
Quote:
Originally Posted by Evanelpus View Post
Do you want to give me this in English please?
Simply put;

The crew are restricted by law on flying and duty hours. They can "use their discretion to extend their duties" how and why are in Section 7 of every EASA operations manual. A trip to TLV from LTN returning same day would be at the limit of normal duty. To deal with off-loading at TLV and all the associated problems would mean using discretion and filling in a lot of forms on return.

I used to live in Radlett UK which has a large orthodox community, the synagogue security staff would happily push pedestrians into the road if they were walking past during a service. I got fed up of the young ones using my garden as a short cut, they were quite free with their threats of violence.

I'm spared TLV these days, where I used to work it was a punishment trip.

SND
Sir Niall Dementia is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17th Feb 2017, 08:59   #25 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Nov 1998
Location: netherlands
Posts: 254
Message deleted. Engage brain before typing.
sleeper is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17th Feb 2017, 09:05   #26 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: on the beach
Age: 61
Posts: 1,984
Quote:
Simply put;

The crew are restricted by law on flying and duty hours. They can "use their discretion to extend their duties" how and why are in Section 7 of every EASA operations manual. A trip to TLV from LTN returning same day would be at the limit of normal duty. To deal with off-loading at TLV and all the associated problems would mean using discretion and filling in a lot of forms on return.

I used to live in Radlett UK which has a large orthodox community, the synagogue security staff would happily push pedestrians into the road if they were walking past during a service. I got fed up of the young ones using my garden as a short cut, they were quite free with their threats of violence.

I'm spared TLV these days, where I used to work it was a punishment trip.
Some airlines care more about out of hours pilots and the financial penalties this will incur than passenger safety. Oh, and by the way, let's make it Luton Airports problem, not ours.

Thanks for clearing this up.
Evanelpus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17th Feb 2017, 09:07   #27 (permalink)


Probationary PPRuNer
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Soon to be out of the EU.
Posts: 4
Evanelpus. It was already in English what was posted. Given that this is a professional pilot rumour network surely it wouldn't take much effort to at least have an idea of what was meant?
HeartyMeatballs is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17th Feb 2017, 09:12   #28 (permalink)
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Europe
Age: 38
Posts: 404
There are far, far worse places to spend a night than Tel Aviv!

The correct course of action is not to take-off with known troublemakers in the back, 'just' because it would call a bit of headache for operations cancelling the flight when FTLs were exceeded.

Call the rozzers, have them sort the ill-behaving pax out - preferably by removing them from the aircraft. If you do get them settled down long enough to get out of Dodge, and they start acting up again once airborne, divert to nearest available with a nice bar and call it a day. Paphos is lovely this time of year.
SMT Member is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17th Feb 2017, 09:15   #29 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: on the beach
Age: 61
Posts: 1,984
Quote:
Evanelpus. It was already in English what was posted. Given that this is a professional pilot rumour network surely it wouldn't take much effort to at least have an idea of what was meant?
My humble apologies to you for making you have to write this post.

I was never a pilot but spent the best part of 30 years in the aviation industry with a major manufacturer.

Have a lovely weekend.
Evanelpus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17th Feb 2017, 09:22   #30 (permalink)


Probationary PPRuNer
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Soon to be out of the EU.
Posts: 4
Thank you, you too.
HeartyMeatballs is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17th Feb 2017, 11:46   #31 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: UK
Posts: 736
I remember this problem vividly on flights not only to TLV but many other destination.

Orthodox Jewish men often refuse to sit next to females who are not their immediate family. On flights with a light load this can be easily solved. However when flight is full it is a nightmare.

The hardest part is handling the female passenger who usually object strongly to the suggestion that they should move to accommodate the man.

On a Tel Aviv flight it is easier to resolve as there are, obviously, many more Jewish passengers who understand the problem and will often assist the crew in resolving it.
vctenderness is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17th Feb 2017, 12:22   #32 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: liverpool uk
Age: 60
Posts: 948
Saw this sort of behaviour many years ago when on a BA flight leaving JFK. Males stood up walked around whilst trying to taxy out during evening rush hour, CSD said 'sit down and shut up or we go back to the stand and you will be arrested' They sat down and shut up.
air pig is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17th Feb 2017, 16:20   #33 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Do I come here often?
Posts: 700
Evanplus;

Thanks for the sarcasm. The knock on for using discretion can be huge; dozens of crew members, and hundreds of passengers, not just the operating crew can be affected.

Like you I've spent 30 years in this industry, a vast amount of it in the P1 seat dealing with problems like these, and it's really called "Commander's Discretion" that's because the decision really comes down to the commander, the 4 stripes and grey hair come from making those decisions, and hundreds of others every trip.

Most of us have never seen a situation needing an off-load before departure, but I've seen a couple en-route, and that diversion actually becomes a major incident in terms of modern SMS.

SND
Sir Niall Dementia is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18th Feb 2017, 12:50   #34 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 4,005
Quote:
The knock on for using discretion can be huge
Esp if there's subsequent unexpected delay and you're using the full* three.
My boss received a snottogram from the CAA which made it quite clear that Capt Bas would NOT do this again.

*Initially made a typo by typing one key to the left of L. How appropriate
Basil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18th Feb 2017, 19:32   #35 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Do I come here often?
Posts: 700
Basil;

I remember my boss getting one of those, I was the pilot for the annual CAA demo flight and duty victim for a TRE/IRE renewal after that one as it really was my own fault.

Now I'm in that boss's chair doing the explaining and woe betide you if the Authority think it was done for "commercial reasons" and then there's the massive paperwork to fill in from the SMS if you divert to offload, or delay to off-load before dep. I reckon most safety departments could re-paper the walls with the haz/dev reports about awkward pax.

We have a new world of paper, and I'm b###ered if it's made anything safer, better or easier.

SND
Sir Niall Dementia is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th Feb 2017, 12:51   #36 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: The Luberon
Age: 65
Posts: 820
IKEA have printed a special edition of their catalogue for ultra orthodox Jews in Israel. The difference from the normal catalogue is that there are no pictures of women.

Ikea apologizes for 'modest' women-free catalog for Israel's ultra-Orthodox - Israel News - Haaretz.com

Images of women examing the contents of their drawers in the kitchen must get the pulses racing !
sitigeltfel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th Feb 2017, 13:39   #37 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Currently within the EU
Posts: 304
Considering how much hatred there is between Jews and Muslims, it's interesting how much prejudice they share.
Subjugation of women, genital mutilation of boys, cruel methods of animal slaughter...
Sallyann1234 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th Feb 2017, 13:57   #38 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: apogee
Age: 62
Posts: 50
They (some - not all) are very stuck in anachronistic terms, in some selective things.
But, no problem with using aircraft, cell phones, AK-47s, cars........
meadowrun is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20th Feb 2017, 08:20   #39 (permalink)
Man Bilong Balus long PNG
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Back in the Land of the Rising Sun for more Glider towing and the continued search for that bad bottle of Red.
Age: 62
Posts: 2,264
Quote:
They (some - not all) are very stuck in anachronistic terms, in some selective things.
But, no problem with using aircraft, cell phones, AK-47s, cars........
Which is why I sometimes really wish that the rest of the World could not just build a rather large wall around the entire middle East, seal it off and tell the incumbents....

"Go for it! We'll let the last mob standing rejoin the World!"
Pinky the pilot is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT. The time now is 01:44.


1996-2012 The Professional Pilots Rumour Network

SEO by vBSEO 3.6.1