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Old 11th Feb 2017, 01:57   #101 (permalink)
 
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No glasses at 74!Had new lenses put in my eyes though!Brilliant!
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Old 11th Feb 2017, 02:04   #102 (permalink)
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jtt - if you jump straight from any discussion of the topic to "OMG!1 Nazis", you're essentially trying to shut down any discussion of the topic.
If you read again what I wrote you will find that I didn't "jump" to "Nazis". I just pointed out that the language used was exactly the same as that which was used back then to desensitise people not stand up against the murders that ensued. That language is, of course, much older, and has been used all over the world to justify crimes against all kinds of groups considered to be "undesirable", aborigines in Australia being just one of them.

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Instead - what do you think about the possibility of using genetic selection to eliminate e.g. cystic fibrosis or Down syndrome? Do you regard that as sinister?
Yes, I do regard it as sinister. I have a cousin that has Down syndrom. It's probably because he was conceived at a time when my aunt didn't expect to get preganant anymore. Perhaps luckily, at that time there were no tests that might have shown that he suffered from that condition. The result is someone that is the most honest person you'll ever find, and one of the sweetest you can imagine. He has his life as everone else, sometimes he's happy and sometimes he isn't so much. All he needs is a bit of extra care, and I really don't mind a few cents of taxes spent on peple like him, especially when compared to what I have to pay for things with my taxes to which I strongly object. Oh, and by the way, he's not going to have children, if that's what you're concerned about.

At the time he was born (over 40 years ago) children with his condition where thought to be "imbeciles". My uncle and aunt didn't subscribe to that point of view and gave him all the support they could. So he developed to be one of the first kids with Down syndrom in Germany to learn to read and write. Nowadays that's considered to be normal, but back then it was unheard of. Nowaday we have kids with Down syndrom that go to "Gymnasium" (the kind of school that prepares you for university). Obviously, they aren't imbeciles per se, they may just need the right way of support which noone had given a thought before.

Would you consider them all to be something to get rid of before they are ever born (or killed a bit later), just because they may not be up to the standards imposed on us concerning how we have to work? Sorry, I can't subscribe to that point of view. Perhaps direct experience got me misguieded.

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Old 11th Feb 2017, 02:27   #103 (permalink)
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The Tlingit of the northwest Pacific in days of old had the custom of the elderly taking themselves away from the community and into the forest when times were tough and they were a drain on the community resources. From they way they told the story it was a custom and not something imposed during periods of severe food shortages. A community of impressive customs and rites.
That may nave been the case (though such stories often smell a bit of "in the good old times when things were better"). But there's a vast difference between some grown-up person, realizing that his continued existence might endanger that of his loved ones and deciding to expidite something that wpuld come soon anyway (perhaps furthered by religous believes that it might increase his chances in a new world he'll move to) and killing others, that never got a saying, over a mis-applied and -understood theory.
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Old 12th Feb 2017, 00:16   #104 (permalink)
 
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in the good old times when things were better
I may very well be dumb, but how would facing starvation be regarded as the good old days and better? You inferring a tribe of masochists?
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Old 12th Feb 2017, 06:04   #105 (permalink)
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No, he is stuck in a paradigm, that the NAZIs subscribed to eugenics so must be evil personified.
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Old 12th Feb 2017, 20:12   #106 (permalink)
 
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I'm facing some of the same issues: I've missed the boat to Australia with most of my colleagues, because my partner's work is all in Europe. Since the Brexit referendum I'm trying to decide whether I should leave the UK and settle in Europe - but this would inevitably mean a large and probably non-temporary drop in living standards - but perhaps better prospects for my son in the long-term. These decisions are never straightforward.
Do you replicate what your father did or follow what rest on extended family did.
Often looking at what you dad did made no sense when people looked at it at the time.
Now you can look at it and think "Genius, thanks dad".

Good friends partner went back to EU home country to look after parent after one died, difficult decision as kids went with her, his view is he changed their lives for ever because otherwise it was the leave good primary, go to good secondary, Uni after etc.

Now they in smaller school (18 in class), fully fluent in 2 languages and learning a third, greater level of independence in doing things he would have worried about in UK, they can return to UK if wish or go to another EU country and quality of life be it in health care, schools or living is above UK, income is not.
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Old 12th Feb 2017, 20:25   #107 (permalink)
 
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Yes, I do regard it as sinister. I have a cousin that has Down syndrom. It's probably because he was conceived at a time when my aunt didn't expect to get preganant anymore. Perhaps luckily, at that time there were no tests that might have shown that he suffered from that condition. The result is someone that is the most honest person you'll ever find, and one of the sweetest you can imagine. He has his life as everone else, sometimes he's happy and sometimes he isn't so much. All he needs is a bit of extra care, and I really don't mind a few cents of taxes spent on peple like him, especially when compared to what I have to pay for things with my taxes to which I strongly object. Oh, and by the way, he's not going to have children, if that's what you're concerned about.

At the time he was born (over 40 years ago) children with his condition where thought to be "imbeciles". My uncle and aunt didn't subscribe to that point of view and gave him all the support they could. So he developed to be one of the first kids with Down syndrom in Germany to learn to read and write. Nowadays that's considered to be normal, but back then it was unheard of. Nowaday we have kids with Down syndrom that go to "Gymnasium" (the kind of school that prepares you for university). Obviously, they aren't imbeciles per se, they may just need the right way of support which noone had given a thought before.

Would you consider them all to be something to get rid of before they are ever born (or killed a bit later), just because they may not be up to the standards imposed on us concerning how we have to work? Sorry, I can't subscribe to that point of view. Perhaps direct experience got me misguieded.
I oppose Eugenics but then that is consistent with me in opposing abortion and the death penalty.

Eugenics is about people with POWER using it against those with none.

Do people think Hitler and his henchmen were the finest examples of Aryan culture ? or if it had been applied across the Nazi leadership how many would have to have been eliminated.

Now cultures do different things whether it be the tribal people leaving a village so as to allow the tribe survive. No different from parents willingly going without food in a famine to ensure their children can survive, each culture has different ways of doing it.
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Old 12th Feb 2017, 21:05   #108 (permalink)

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Since the Brexit referendum I'm trying to decide whether I should leave the UK and settle in Europe - but this would inevitably mean a large and probably non-temporary drop in living standards - but perhaps better prospects for my son in the long-term. These decisions are never straightforward.
We're funding most of the cost of our kids getting Irish passports - retains their freedom of movement and prospects without us having to move.
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Old 12th Feb 2017, 21:33   #109 (permalink)
 
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Wasn't Churchill going to vote on some eugenics law in the early 20th century after his experience in the Boer war and British troops, only the needs of the Great war got in the way.
Also did the US sterilise 100,000 women of low intelligence.
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Old 12th Feb 2017, 21:54   #110 (permalink)
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When he was Home Secretary (February 1910-October 1911) Churchill was in favour of the confinement, segregation, and sterilization of a class of persons contemporarily described as the "feeble minded."
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Old 14th Feb 2017, 19:09   #111 (permalink)
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It does become a vexed idea in the modern age when individual rights override community needs.

Each of us has our own morality on the issue and may have had to confront it personally.

One of my wife's pregnancy tests showed a marker for possible cystic fibrosis, whilst waiting for the follow up we both decided termination was the best course to follow.
Further tests proved negative so became a mute point.
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Old 14th Feb 2017, 21:32   #112 (permalink)
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Having grown up with neighbours with a Down's syndrome child and having seen the struggle that they experienced which lead to their separation, I formed the opinion that this wasn't something to be tackled 'alone', but needed institutional care.

I don't know that I would have proposed abortion (when I was a youngster, abortion 'wasn't possible' - and the subject never arose with our pregnancies).

We have a 'Mencap' residential facility near us, and the young adults always seem happy (and they produce vegetables and cakes - indeed they run a cafeteria).

Alison (see the first paragraph) was very strong-willed (stubborn one might say) and I saw her frequent tantrums.
I wonder what became of her - she was almost the same age as me, so her mother will be dead by now (or at least incapable of looking after a 70 year old 'child').
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Old 14th Feb 2017, 22:26   #113 (permalink)
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G-CPT, that is what most parents of these folk worry about, just how they will fare once the parents are gone.

Discussions with friends of severely handicapped children revealed that most of them would have taken a different course of action if they did it over.

Last edited by Eddie Dean; 14th Feb 2017 at 22:37.
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Old 14th Feb 2017, 23:28   #114 (permalink)
 
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Discussions with friends of severely handicapped children revealed that most of them would have taken a different course of action if they did it over.
Friends have a severly handicapped son, it was their 1st child, she is of Irish background but was not baptised at the time, her husband is of Spanish extraction. They decided to have the child irrespective of the consequences as they knew it would be handicapped.

Life not easy but someone once asked would they have considered abortion, wife was adamant no and she is now baptised Catholic.

In the church I go to we know the lad well, we raise money every year to send the lad to Lourdes with HCPT, family get a holiday knowing he is well looked after for the week, my friends go paying own way and look after people.

If he comes to mass he sometimes becomes disruptive, if parents need help they get it, their is little tolerance for anybody who objects to him being there and must admit only have heard of 1 person objecting and this was a visitor.

Also next door to where I grew up there was a Downs Syndrome child, born after I had left, everyone knew the girl and she was looked after, now 20 something and her family look after her. Remember at a BBQ asking her mum what would happen if they died young who would look after the girl, her brother and sister were in ear shot and came back quickly with "we would, she if our family".
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Old 16th Feb 2017, 21:06   #115 (permalink)
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Cancer research into gene editing techniques could cure disease.
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Old 16th Feb 2017, 22:19   #116 (permalink)
 
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If I had to choose but one thing I could impress on my children from whatever wisdom I have gained in life it would be the importance of genetics in mating.
Quote attributed to Lindbergh.

I wonder what genetic manipulation ethics will be in vogue in 80 years.
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Old 17th Feb 2017, 02:48   #117 (permalink)
 
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It seems Lindbergh put in plenty of practice. 7 kids from secret affairs with 3 European women, two of them sisters, plus 6 by Anne.

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Old 17th Feb 2017, 18:38   #118 (permalink)
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It seems Lindbergh put in plenty of practice. 7 kids from secret affairs with 3 European women, two of them sisters, plus 6 by Anne.
Plus his slight penchant for the Nazi's wisdom
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Old 18th Feb 2017, 01:33   #119 (permalink)
 
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In the book Freakonomics, they draw a parallel between the legalisation of abortion and the reduction in the crime rate 15-20 years later. Mothers weren't forced to bring up unwanted children who grew up neglected and joined the criminal class.

Having seen some of the scrotes from the council estates, the procedure should be encouraged for the mothers.
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Old 18th Feb 2017, 17:21   #120 (permalink)
 
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Having seen some of the scrotes from the council estates, the procedure should be encouraged for the mothers.
You seem to overlook the fact that these scrotes from the council estates are the ones who tend to form the backbone of the armed forces.
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