PPRuNe Forums


Jet Blast Topics that don't fit the other forums. Rules of Engagement apply.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 14th Dec 2016, 14:51   #1 (permalink)
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Hampshire
Age: 69
Posts: 338
Southern Rail

You couldn't make it up! After days and weeks of badgering the unions involved in the strikes at Southern Rail, RMT & ASLEF agreed to attend talks at ACAS today. They duly turned up and Southern Rail had the RMT chief thrown out! That should give Chris (I've always got a silly smirk) Grayling something to think about following his rant yesterday.
KelvinD is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14th Dec 2016, 15:15   #2 (permalink)
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Brighton
Age: 63
Posts: 8,336
He wasn't invited (the talks were just between the company and ASLEF), he invited himself - and was correctly refused entry.
ORAC is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 15th Dec 2016, 03:55   #3 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: South of YSSY
Age: 65
Posts: 427
And there was I thinking this thread was going to be about Sir Oliver Bulleid, the "Merchant Navy" and "West Country" locomotives, the astonishing Q1 0-6-0 Austerity heavy freight loco and those magnificent boat-trains.

Never judge a thread by its title.
criticalmass is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th Dec 2016, 08:21   #4 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Hertfordshire
Posts: 285
Quote:
Originally Posted by criticalmass View Post
And there was I thinking this thread was going to be about Sir Oliver Bulleid, the "Merchant Navy" and "West Country" locomotives, the astonishing Q1 0-6-0 Austerity heavy freight loco and those magnificent boat-trains.

Never judge a thread by its title.
Ah, but it were the Southern Railway in them days (and had railway stations!) so the title should not have misled you.
Allan Lupton is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th Dec 2016, 10:23   #5 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: In Jurassic Park eating Toblerone....
Posts: 2,623
It was originally the South Eastern Railway and it was unpopular even back on the 1880's!

Unpopularity of the SER

During the 1880s and 1890s the SER was accused of only caring about Continental travellers and of neglecting the interests of its other customers. A series of letters to The Times in London in 1883 demonstrated how unpopular the railway had become with its regular commuters.[66] Ernest Foxwell, also writing in 1883, stated 'The great blots on the South Eastern are its unpunctuality, its fares, its third class carriages, and the way in which local interests are sacrificed to Continental traffic.'[67] Hamilton Ellis later described both the SER and the LCDR at this time as 'bywords of poverty stricken inefficiency and dirtiness'.[68] In spite of these criticisms the shareholders stuck with their chairman, until they eventually realised that their own interests were suffering as well. A scathing article in The Investors Review for June 1894 demonstrated how poorly Watkin's railways had performed financially compared to others, and referred to the SER's 'bitter hatred towards all but first-class travellers, [and] their determined cultivation of the art of running empty coaches'. The article finished,
the Company is now almost too weak to turn round and adopt a wise policy. It might become bankrupt in the process ; so the best thing to do is to leave it severely alone. Just as none travel by it who can find another route, so none should touch its common stocks who are free to do otherwise.[69] Watkin retired shortly afterwards.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Eastern_Railway,_UK
LowNSlow is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 15th Dec 2016, 10:28   #6 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Farnham, Surrey
Posts: 640
Quote:
Originally Posted by KelvinD View Post
You couldn't make it up! After days and weeks of badgering the unions involved in the strikes at Southern Rail, RMT & ASLEF agreed to attend talks at ACAS today. They duly turned up and Southern Rail had the RMT chief thrown out!
I heard the actual problem was that he didn't have a conductor with him, and when he got to the ACAS building he claimed he couldn't safely open the door himself - so he couldn't get in.

PDR
PDR1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th Dec 2016, 10:48   #7 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Currently within the EU
Posts: 304
I see from the news coverage that there is still building work going on at the front of Victoria station. I haven't had the privilege of travelling into Victoria for some time, but the work has been going on for so many years that I thought it would have finished by now.

There used to be at the entrance to the station a rather magnificent ceramic tiled map of the Southern rail network as it was pre-Beeching, and also a memorial to staff lost in WW1.

Have those features survived all the building work in that area?
Sallyann1234 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 15th Dec 2016, 12:12   #8 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Aug 1998
Location: London, UK
Posts: 1,763
A major problem with this dispute is the Government taking no action or responsibility. It was a DfT requirement of the franchise that all trains were to become one man operated. Southern had no option but to do this - but this never seems to get mentioned and that pratt Grayling just tries to keep his head down.
Groundloop is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th Dec 2016, 12:24   #9 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Farnham, Surrey
Posts: 640
I am prepared top provide drivers with a web-based course in opening and closing doors completely free of charge, if that will help.

Apparently their whole collective life experience to date has not taught them this basic skill.

PDR
PDR1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th Dec 2016, 13:11   #10 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: warlingham
Posts: 57
Aslef drivers

Apparently can open and close doors by themselves on thameslink trains, but not on southern.

For me, a lot of people say this is a problem of southern management's making. I would agree they are not the world's best.
But this is clearly a union gone bad.

And I suspect the rise is industrial action from unite at the post office and BA is not coincidence.
mrangryofwarlingham is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th Dec 2016, 15:15   #11 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Penzance
Age: 66
Posts: 409
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sallyann1234 View Post
I see from the news coverage that there is still building work going on at the front of Victoria station. I haven't had the privilege of travelling into Victoria for some time, but the work has been going on for so many years that I thought it would have finished by now.

There used to be at the entrance to the station a rather magnificent ceramic tiled map of the Southern rail network as it was pre-Beeching, and also a memorial to staff lost in WW1.

Have those features survived all the building work in that area?




Yep, still there.
RedhillPhil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th Dec 2016, 15:18   #12 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Penzance
Age: 66
Posts: 409
Quote:
Originally Posted by Groundloop View Post
A major problem with this dispute is the Government taking no action or responsibility. It was a DfT requirement of the franchise that all trains were to become one man operated. Southern had no option but to do this - but this never seems to get mentioned and that pratt Grayling just tries to keep his head down.

Another thing to put in the mix is that the owners of Southern basically operate the railway on behalf of the government who underwrite the operation. Ergo, whatever losses that are made from non-train operation the government picks up the tab. That's why the government aren't too bothered about stepping in to do something - the taxpayer's keeping the shareholders happy.
RedhillPhil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th Dec 2016, 16:37   #13 (permalink)
Thought police antagonist
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Where I always have been...firmly in the real world
Posts: 830
" For me, a lot of people say this is a problem of southern management's making. I would agree they are not the world's best".

Not quite in the upper echelons of gross understatement, but, a commendable effort overall.

Possibly, hope, as they say, springs eternal, the comments by the management will offer an insight for you as to the intent. And don't forget the sanctimonious utterings from Grayling....


https://www.channel4.com/news/rail-s...lks-to-be-held


[I" ]But this is clearly a union gone bad" [/I]

Well of course it has...whatever other reason and explanation could there possibly be I wonder.....apart from the fact the union are doing precisely what the organisation is expected to do, not simply for it's members but also in the interests of the travelling public.

Of course, and I can understand your lament here, life would be so much more convenient if management could simply dictate to employees and not be inconvenienced thereafter with people raising valid concerns and objections.
Krystal n chips is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th Dec 2016, 17:01   #14 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: birmingham
Posts: 28
I think you will find the recent events at stations in Liverpool leading to one guard being imprisioned and one guard awaiting trail because of the gross stupidity of the passengers themselves has had a big effect on drivers nationwide.
They have serious doubts of being the only "safety critical " person either on the train or on the platform out in the countryside. The railway equivalent to PPRuNe casts serious doubts on the whole DOO method of operation, note, not that's its inherently unsafe but that the ambulance chasers are now in the drivers seat.
westernhero is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th Dec 2016, 17:09   #15 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Currently within the EU
Posts: 304
Quote:
Yep, still there.
Thanks! Glad to hear it.
Sallyann1234 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 15th Dec 2016, 21:13   #16 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: warlingham
Posts: 57
Managements ability to manage

First and foremost, this strike has nothing to do with safety. If you think it is, well you should try traveling on both Southern and Thameslink, and explain why Aslef drivers do a safe job on one but cannot do the same on the other. The union says this is not about pay or jobs.....just about safety.

Southern is so grossly overcrowded the 2nd member of staff is unlikely to be able to help much in the event a passenger becomes ill. Best bet is get help at next station. If you haven't experienced the cattle truck conditions of Southern that commuters regularly face, I invite you to try it.

I have seen a young mother, with baby in pram , break down at east Croydon station because she just couldn't get on a train for hours and the next train was hours away.

Secondly Grayling IMHO is not fit to be a member of Southern management. Which, depending on your view of Southern, puts him somewhere between hopelessly incompetent and grossly inept. However, he is still immeasurably better than his woeful predecessor.
The government attitude to this is shameful. I truly hope they lose seats because of it at the next election. The performance of TM at the last PMQs was truly pathetic. The best she could do when challenged by the MPs for Brighton and Hove, plus others, was to suggest that Corbyn have a word with Aslef because Aslef was a supporter of Labour.

Wtf? What a useless attitude.

K&C.
You mistake my politics. I am very much a floating voter. I have voted labour, liberal, and Tory in fairly equal measure over the years, depending on candidate.
This strike is truly not about safety. Whatever you think about its motives, it is 100% not doing this for the travelling public. Please don't be so naive. It is about trains operated only by drivers, with the eventual loss of conductor jobs.
mrangryofwarlingham is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th Dec 2016, 21:57   #17 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: Swindon, Wilts,UK
Posts: 561
There's another thread on this theme which is slightly more balanced and somewhat better informed Multi-crew operations
There has been trouble at Southern since its inception. My cousin, who now drives as shunter for them making up trains, gave up main line working after his second jumper.
He started just before privatisation and told of how when they were privatised the new management cut out a lot of the reserve capacity regards drivers.
The idea was to make things more efficient by only having as many drivers as you needed for a shift.
So they cut out the standby drivers and did away with drivers running overlapping shifts.
Of course this works fine on a spread sheet but in real life it meant that any problems, signal failures, breakdowns or illness meant that drivers ran out of duty hours, trains were stranded out of place. This meant that the careful logistics of the timetable planners went completely to pieces.
Also many of the drivers left for other TOC's so when they decided that they did indeed need to have a higher manning level they had to train new drivers. In the time this took many of the original staff left, either just giving up due to stress or moving to other TOCs.
Which might go some way to explaing the bolshie attitude of the staff and the rather poor reputation they have for reliability.
Windy Militant is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16th Dec 2016, 06:01   #18 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: warlingham
Posts: 57
A better informed thread?

I think not.
Seems the self appointed expert on that thread believes Railtrack still exists and is responsible for how doors close on rolling stock.
Then some go on about how difficult it is to buy tickets on their phones
Some who argue that guards are needed to deal with mudslides, unruly passengers, and that drivers are as much use as chocolate tea pots in such cases.
And then the argument for and against privatisation....

So I beg to differ.
mrangryofwarlingham is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16th Dec 2016, 10:21   #19 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: SW England
Age: 70
Posts: 3,047
Quote:
and explain why Aslef drivers do a safe job on one but cannot do the same on the other. The union says this is not about pay or jobs.....just about safety.
And that is surely the central point of the argument. If the practice is unsafe, how do ASLEF explain the fact that their members have been carrying it out for years elsewhere? Do they admit to being complicit in dangerous practices?
Tankertrashnav is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17th Dec 2016, 11:54   #20 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: warlingham
Posts: 57
The strikes continue into the new year

https://fullfact.org/economy/are-dri...y-trains-safe/

Draw your own conclusion whether the strike is about safety.
Rail is already one of the safest methods of travel.
Anyone who went to the protests last week in front of the DfT by the affected public and argued "but the unions are doing this for you" would have been strung up and lynched in all likelyhood.
Thousands of commuters have had their lives severely disrupted by this dispute. Many losing their jobs already (probably more already than would ultimately lose their jobs at southern), having their businesses impacted, or simply losing time with their children which they never recover.

The company is failing, the union is rogue, and the government is a disgrace.
Am I furious ? Do I have to use Southern regularly?
Are people having to drive instead?
So this is ironic....in comparison, those that drive or use motorcycle as a method of transport are far more likely to have an accident. By driving people off the trains, the unions are making people use far more dangerous modes of transport.

"the unions.......the interests of the travelling public". It's been a while since I read such an ignorant statement.
I suggest the poster of this statement also learns grammar. The use of "it's" instead of "its" is a rudimentary schoolboy error.
mrangryofwarlingham is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT. The time now is 15:37.


1996-2012 The Professional Pilots Rumour Network

SEO by vBSEO 3.6.1