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Old 20th Dec 2016, 16:32   #101 (permalink)
 
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400k Railtrack 2000 for Alarp.
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Old 20th Dec 2016, 17:17   #102 (permalink)
 
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adding in all the peripheral costs, like lost business, damage to reputation, etc, as well as the direct cost in compensation, insurance premiums, fines etc
How many of those nine incidents were actually the responsibility of the train driver or guard and therefore worthy of compensation?
We've all seen passengers doing stupid things, forcing themselves into full carriages, holding doors open etc. The train operator shouldn't automatically be blamed for passengers' irresponsible behaviour.
You can't always protect people from themselves.
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Old 20th Dec 2016, 18:00   #103 (permalink)
 
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Originally Posted by Mr Optimistic View Post
400k Railtrack 2000 for Alarp.
An ALARP judgement doesn't come from the cost alone - a hazard is deemed ALARP when the incremental cost of mitigation is disproportionate for the degree to which the hazard is mitigated (in proper safety engineering - eg R2P2 or Def STan 00-56 stuff).

In this case the cost of the additional crew member on all trains is large, while the mitigation achieved is pretty minimal due to all the factors we've discussed here - the high density of the crowd and the near impossibility of seeing all the doors to mitigate the hazard any further.

I doubt our crystaline colleague will be able to grasp this, though. He's too busy parotting a line from his TU handlers to give the matter any proper consideration.

PDR
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Old 20th Dec 2016, 18:58   #104 (permalink)
 
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Just telling you what the burden per death was then.
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Old 20th Dec 2016, 21:05   #105 (permalink)
 
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I recently spoke to a SouthEastern guard who was in support of the principle, NOT of the drawn out and bitter strikes, but not this whole "who shuts the doors nonsense".

His argument was that conductors/guards play a very important role in passenger safety when stuff goes really wrong. He used this incident as an example. Long and short of it, the train hit a landslide, derailed and was then struck by an oncoming train. The driver was stuck in his cab and couldn't reassure passengers, stop them wandering on the line, get out and put clips on the line (break the track circuit) etc. That's what the conductor did.

Now, I live on a DOO line (Great Northern) and this whole who closes the door thing is nonsense - most accidents are commuters trying to get through a closing door!

Both sides need to sit down and stop causing misery to thousands...
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Old 21st Dec 2016, 08:34   #106 (permalink)
 
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Were these 9 incidents deaths or just 'incidents'. Are we talking fingers caught in the door and can I have some compo or recorded fatalities?

As Crablab says above, the doors thing is just nonsense. I agree the guard has played a part in helping people during out of station incidents but this goes back to my post above. You can design out the need for him.

Monitored lines with modern control centres and the ability to instantly isolate sections of line and stop oncoming trains will work better than having one guard on board. It works on the underground are there is not aboveground line with more frequent traffic than that.
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Old 21st Dec 2016, 09:35   #107 (permalink)
 
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Monitored lines with modern control centres and the ability to instantly isolate sections of line and stop oncoming trains will work better than having one guard on board. It works on the underground are there is not aboveground line with more frequent traffic than that.
This will come with ERTMS, being installed on the ECML in the near future. It is in essence a moving block type system so instead of having fixed stopping distances dictated by signal spacing, the stopping distance between trains is governed by speed and size. (Aviation equivalent is a bit like NATS switching from fixed wake turbulence spacing, to their new dynamic one calculated by a computer). More trains, higher speeds, less delays and guess what...fully automatic

Although probably shouldn't say that too loud as we'll be next...
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Old 21st Dec 2016, 09:51   #108 (permalink)
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" I agree the guard has played a part in helping people during out of station incidents but this goes back to my post above.

You can design out the need for him "


That's a wonderful piece of contradiction !

I, and others, will be fascinated to learn how, when human intervention is required, there is no need for such as some form of automated process will render, say, first aid, guidance, reassurance and indeed just about every facet you can think of in an emergency.
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Old 21st Dec 2016, 09:55   #109 (permalink)
 
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Originally Posted by Krystal n chips View Post
"
You can design out the need for him "


That's a wonderful piece of contradiction !
Not really, something can still be useful and be replaced.

Quote:
I, and others, will be fascinated to learn how, when human intervention is required, there is no need for such as some form of automated process will render, say, first aid, guidance, reassurance and indeed just about every facet you can think of in an emergency.
I rather made that point above.
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Old 21st Dec 2016, 10:20   #110 (permalink)
 
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" I agree the guard has played a part in helping people during out of station incidents but this goes back to my post above.

You can design out the need for him "

That's a wonderful piece of contradiction !
No it isn't a contradiction at all and the fact you think it is shows you are not an engineer.

Quote:
I, and others, will be fascinated to learn how, when human intervention is required, there is no need for such as some form of automated process will render, say, first aid, guidance, reassurance and indeed just about every facet you can think of in an emergency.
So that's the angle now is it? We need these heroes on board to provide first aid and emergency assistance. In that case why don't we employ people to sit next to us in every taxi? Why not on every bus? Who will provide emergency first aid and 'reassure' you if your in an accident whilst on the underground or numerous other forms of transport without a guardian angel?

Get real, in an accident the guard is more likely to be getting first aid from a more qualified passenger who was in a seat when it happened.

You are trying to make excuses based on your politics. Even the union agreed to this practice previously.
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Old 21st Dec 2016, 10:25   #111 (permalink)
 
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No it isn't a contradiction at all and the fact you think it is shows you are not an engineer.



So that's the angle now is it? We need these heroes on board to provide first aid and emergency assistance. In that case why don't we employ people to sit next to us in every taxi? Why not on every bus? Who will provide emergency first aid and 'reassure' you if your in an accident whilst on the underground or numerous other forms of transport without a guardian angel?

Get real, in an accident the guard is more likely to be getting first aid from a more qualified passenger who was in a seat when it happened.

You are trying to make excuses based on your politics. Even the union agreed to this practice previously.


Just one itsy-bitsy point about a Guard helping injured passengers. As far as I can ascertain - it's certainly true for Southern - no Guard receives any First Aid training nowadays. In B.R. days they did. In B.R. days any staff (not Guards though) who were St. John Ambulance qualified used to get an additional day's leave.
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Old 21st Dec 2016, 10:29   #112 (permalink)
 
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sshh, don't ruin K&C's image. In his mind they are flag waiving, whistle blowing superheroes.

It's no wonder he wants to do it in his spare time for free.

The irony is, if the company came out and said they expected the guards to provide emergency assistance then the union would probably tell them to go out on strike.
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Old 21st Dec 2016, 10:46   #113 (permalink)
 
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Originally Posted by mrangryofwarlingham View Post
Apparently can open and close doors by themselves on thameslink trains, but not on southern.

For me, a lot of people say this is a problem of southern management's making. I would agree they are not the world's best.
But this is clearly a union gone bad.

And I suspect the rise is industrial action from unite at the post office and BA is not coincidence.

Bit of explanation here - explanation, not excuse or support.
There are three railways that use the Brighton Main Line (BML). Thameslink, Gatwick Express and Southern. The ASLE&F agreements were made with these separate companies when they were separate. Agreement was reached to work Southern Metro services with trains no longer than eight carriages(2X455 or 377) Agreement was reached with Gatwick Express to work trains no longer than 10 coaches (2X442). Agreement was reached with Thameslink drivers to work trains no longer than 8 carriages. No such agreement was made to work any longer trains. This is the crux of the argument. Southern want the drivers to work 12 carriage trains, the drivers say that twelve carriages - that's 24 doors - is too many. Although the very latest stock entering service now has very good camera equipment fitted the slightly older 377s have a poor quality system fitted with small screens which switch off as soon as the doors close so that any late running lemmings throwing themselves at the doors cannot be easily seen. Perhaps someone would like to spend an hour on a manned rush hour platform to see what effect a shouted "stand clear of the doors" has.
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Old 21st Dec 2016, 11:25   #114 (permalink)
 
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What train line you travel on?

K&C Said:

"I, and others, will be fascinated to learn how, when human intervention is required, there is no need for such as some form of automated process will render, say, first aid, guidance, reassurance and indeed just about every facet you can think of in an emergency."

My Bold.

K&C please tell me you are just on a wind up.

15 years of commuting on SWT from Twickers into and from Waterloo about 3 times I was on a train that stopped at a station for a medical emergency. Not once was the guard providing medical assistance, each and every time it was fellow passengers.

And being at a station an ambulance was on scene quickly and we were on our way within 15 minutes.

I did not realise guards on Southern trains are all paramedics.
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Old 21st Dec 2016, 11:32   #115 (permalink)
 
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And while I'm on here how about getting some physical training for some of these guards. One was so fat he took he took up 3 standing places and delayed the bloody thing as he waddled on and off.

And the time when they are needed the most, rush hour, is actually the time they are least effective. Being effectively blind and ignorant of what is happening on the platform. So why have them?

Edited to add:

Not sure if this has been linked or not so apologies if it has.
Worth a read http://orr.gov.uk/__data/assets/pdf_...cs-2014-15.pdf

Last edited by ExRAFRadar; 21st Dec 2016 at 11:44.
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Old 21st Dec 2016, 13:30   #116 (permalink)
 
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If we need to have guards on every train in case people get themselves caught in a door, then we certainly need guards patrolling every platform to prevent suicide 'jumpers'.

After all this is a more serious and frequent problem, and causes far longer train disruptions as well as PTSD to drivers.
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Old 21st Dec 2016, 14:02   #117 (permalink)
 
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SA1234 - well said. A much more serious problem as the docu,emt linked to above proves.

One of my local stations, North Sheen has a level crossing. There have been so many suicides/ attempted suicides that the Samaritans have actually put up notices on the gates and walkway asking people to call them if they feel suicidal

And this at a station that is unmanned outside rush hour.

Last edited by ExRAFRadar; 21st Dec 2016 at 14:04. Reason: more info
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Old 21st Dec 2016, 14:47   #118 (permalink)
 
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Originally Posted by ExRAFRadar View Post
SA1234 - well said. A much more serious problem as the docu,emt linked to above proves.

One of my local stations, North Sheen has a level crossing. There have been so many suicides/ attempted suicides that the Samaritans have actually put up notices on the gates and walkway asking people to call them if they feel suicidal

And this at a station that is unmanned outside rush hour.

Many station have such notices nowadays manned and unmanned.
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Old 21st Dec 2016, 15:50   #119 (permalink)
 
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Phil

I note your comments about the length of trains and the issue about number of carriages.
I regularly use the BML. And with trains from both thameslink and southern formed of 8 10 and 12 cars. All the thameslink services regardless of length don't have conductors. I think the 12 car units are mostly the modern rolling stock.
Southern is often 8 cars due to some problem or other with rolling stock. I understand the dispute with southern to be over all trains, not just those with more than 8 cars.
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Old 21st Dec 2016, 15:58   #120 (permalink)
 
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Sally

Sadly such tragic fatalities are all too frequent.
I would be interested to know how much it would cost to install automated barriers, such as those used on the jubilee line in London, at every railway station so that there was no access to the trains until it was safe or the track.

Radeng

Is there a level of suicides you find acceptable? Regardless of the costs should there be a safety system on all platforms that prevented suicides?
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