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Old 20th Dec 2016, 09:42   #81 (permalink)
 
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"It would be interesting to hear a Minister say exactly how many injuries per year from people being dragged after being trapped are acceptable."

A truly laudable sentiment. And no doubt you are personally prepared to pay for a rail transport system in the U.K. which guarantees no injuries? I thank you for such generosity.
However, in the real world where the commuter already pays on average thousands of pounds a year, I don't see much willingness to pay more.

I refer back to other methods of transport. Such as the car and motorbike. Would you also be interested to hear a minister say how many deaths on the road are acceptable? That the public needs to have guards and conductors at every road junction, bringing back the waving of red flags in front of cars, forcing motorists to wear helmets, reducing speed limits by 20 mph everywhere, have safety drivers in every car....etc.

In my humble opinion, 9 incidents in 5 years is already a good safety record.
And the RSTB says there is no safety issue. Certainly I believe that my safety is not threatened when I use a DOO train.

But some extra safety measures arguably could be brought into action on trains. Barring passengers from travelling if they are drunk. Putting their luggage through X-ray machines. Lessons are there to be learnt from the aviation industry.....
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Old 20th Dec 2016, 09:47   #82 (permalink)
 
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It will only be a matter of time until there are a spate of fatalities and or injurie

I hope not.
And I believe not.
There hasn't been a fatal accident for some years attributable to the lack of a conductor operating the doors, so the maths says the chance of there now being a spate of such fatal accidents is close to zero.
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Old 20th Dec 2016, 09:58   #83 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrangryofwarlingham View Post
"It would be interesting to hear a Minister say exactly how many injuries per year from people being dragged after being trapped are acceptable."

A truly laudable sentiment. And no doubt you are personally prepared to pay for a rail transport system in the U.K. which guarantees no injuries? I thank you for such generosity.
However, in the real world where the commuter already pays on average thousands of pounds a year, I don't see much willingness to pay more.

I refer back to other methods of transport. Such as the car and motorbike. Would you also be interested to hear a minister say how many deaths on the road are acceptable? That the public needs to have guards and conductors at every road junction, bringing back the waving of red flags in front of cars, forcing motorists to wear helmets, reducing speed limits by 20 mph everywhere, have safety drivers in every car....etc.

In my humble opinion, 9 incidents in 5 years is already a good safety record.
And the RSTB says there is no safety issue. Certainly I believe that my safety is not threatened when I use a DOO train.

But some extra safety measures arguably could be brought into action on trains. Barring passengers from travelling if they are drunk. Putting their luggage through X-ray machines. Lessons are there to be learnt from the aviation industry.....
Not fair or reasonable comparisons, really.

Passengers on trains have no control over the doors or the driver, nor do they have any say in how the platforms are constructed or whether or not appropriate safety systems have been installed. They are, literally, at the mercy of the driver, and it is the driver who may face prosecution if there is an accident.

Drivers of all road vehicles are in control of their own destiny when they stop, start, negotiate junctions etc. Passengers on a train do not have that luxury.

I'd agree that your comparisons may well apply to those not actually travelling on a train, but merely standing on a platform or somewhere like a level crossing, but that's hardly related to safe train door operation, is it?
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Old 20th Dec 2016, 10:02   #84 (permalink)
 
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majority of the pax are not "spotters", just people who want an enjoyable, and.....he

....safe day out.

Not according to government statistics. The majority are commuters.

https://www.gov.uk/government/upload...sheet-2015.pdf

So enjoyable and safe are your criteria? I think you are out of touch with the majority commuter.
I can't say that I have found any rail journey I have made in the U.K. In the last 30 years enjoyable.
Finding a seat can go a long way to making a journey more tolerable. (Anyone recall the Corbyn stunt when he sat on the floor of the Virgin train?)

My criteria are safe, reliable, clean, affordable.
Simple as that.
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Old 20th Dec 2016, 10:10   #85 (permalink)
 
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My understanding was that the unions have made no secret of the fact that the strikes are political so not sure why the soul searching and statistics, seems clear enough to me.
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Old 20th Dec 2016, 10:11   #86 (permalink)
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Just to repeat the facts rather than the spurious horror stories.......
Quote:
•Aslef signed a deal with the company only eight months ago to allow driver-only operation of Southern trains when a guard was not available — almost precisely the issue it is striking about now

•More than half the trains which use the main line between London and Gatwick airport are already driver-only — with the unions’ full agreement. Of the 318 weekday trains 168, or 53%, operate without guards opening and closing the doors........

•Despite union claims that driver-only trains are “inherently unsafe”, only one passenger in the past decade has died while boarding or alighting from a train. The train concerned had a guard..........
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Old 20th Dec 2016, 10:14   #87 (permalink)
 
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A bit of a revelation for you. A packed commuter train going into London is no different to one going into say Manchester or Birmingham.
It is if your £5000 per year rail ticket was bought from Southern Rail which is the company we are talking about. Do take that chip off your shoulder.

Quote:
Not fair or reasonable comparisons, really.

Passengers on trains have no control over the doors or the driver, nor do they have any say in how the platforms are constructed or whether or not appropriate safety systems have been installed. They are, literally, at the mercy of the driver, and it is the driver who may face prosecution if there is an accident.
You do however have to treat people as generally safe human being. 9 incidents in 5 years is no justification. You also need to define what is meant by 'incident' How many injuries are there on the buses, taxis, tube etc. You will never rule out every accident and to pretend this is about the passenger safety is just laughable. If the doors are that unsafe then it is they that need redesigning.

I would wager there have been more than 9 'incidents' on picket lines in 5 years.
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Old 20th Dec 2016, 10:16   #88 (permalink)
 
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Not fair or reasonable comparisons, really.

Actually I think they are.
Just that your mindset is one where the fare paying passenger becomes the non fare paying driver in the car.
Once your mindset stays as fare paying passenger, for example in a taxi you can see it more clearly.
So let's see....my wife wants to take the train or taxi. Which do I feel is going to be safer for her ? Difficult one...
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Old 20th Dec 2016, 10:23   #89 (permalink)
 
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Back in 1999 the union organised train drivers were paid of the order of £40k pa whilst signallers were on about £10k. If we want to invest in safe, efficient, affordable train system suggest staffing costs are a reasonable place to start.
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Old 20th Dec 2016, 12:59   #90 (permalink)
 
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Leaving aside your sarcasm, in all these safety related matters, there is a certain level of cost/benefit ratio which translates directly to deaths or serious injuries. The question then comes back to what the acceptable ratio is. After the Harrow disaster, there were calculations as to whether the cost of installing AWS would be more than a massive pay out in respect of each victim. In fact, the savings from AWS were more in keeping trains moving in poor visibility, although it didn't prevent the Dagenham East crash in 1957.

9 serious injuries in 5 years is admittedly very small. However, I doubt the victims would feel it was acceptable.
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Old 20th Dec 2016, 13:06   #91 (permalink)
 
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Not getting into the politics here, merely the safety aspect.
It is worth remembering that accidents prevented are mostly impossible to quantify.
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Old 20th Dec 2016, 13:09   #92 (permalink)
 
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But how many, if any, of those 9 incidents would have been prevented by the presence of a guard?

I think ORAC has summed up this whole episode above however and even the Unions seem to think there is no real safety issue despite their protestations.
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Old 20th Dec 2016, 14:32   #93 (permalink)
 
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And your point is?

Are you saying 9 incidents in 5 years is acceptable, and rather than spend any further money in reducing this number further, any further victims should be offered compensation as that will be cheaper ?
Or if that number is not acceptable, what number do you propose ? And why? How much is the incremental cost? And who will pay it? The taxpayer?
Or the compensation payments....how much would you have paid to the victims of the 9 incidents ?
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Old 20th Dec 2016, 14:46   #94 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Optimistic View Post
Having had some experience with railway industry, I cannot say much in favour of their management or culture. Neither the managers nor workers had their customers much in mind. However in this case the union has made it clear the strike is political so no need to spend much time wondering about their safety argument: its bogus.

As for the long haired union leader from Doncaster who regards Arthur Scargill as one of his 'giants'.......Well we can be sure he puts the public interest and safety first can't we.

Quite simply I wish the rail unions all the I'll will in the world. Happy Christmas, but not to them !



"....the I'll will in...."


That grocer's apostrophe. It's a little beggar for getting itself in the way.
You're somewhat right. The "workers" and the "management" are at odds most days with the poor old passenger - sorry, "customer" getting in the way. Many people on t'railway consider passengers as people who get in the way of their running a train set. Railway people tend to be conservative by nature yet the newspapers of the land who were shut down and had weeks of picketing by the print unions in the early eighties compare badly with the introduction of new signalling systems that saw thousands of people transferred from their signalboxes to first large panel 'boxes and now Regional Operating Centres without any unrest.
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Old 20th Dec 2016, 14:56   #95 (permalink)
 
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Of course I blame the spell checker.....
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Old 20th Dec 2016, 15:00   #96 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Krystal n chips View Post
PDR...

I apologise for not presenting the facts in a format that allows you to comprehend their validity. Unfortunately, I am not a child psychologist hence my error.

Perhaps this link will help.

Role of the dispatcher

I don't suppose for one minute you watched Chris Tarrant last night, on C5, and his Polar express journey across Scandinavia ?...starting in Norway, thence to Sweden and Finland.

If so, you missed the Norwegian guard waving a green flag and...blowing a whistle.

True, the line in question is now a major tourist route, and I haven't seen a green flag being used on the UK mainlines for a long time, but, both items are still in use on heritage lines, and not simply to add to the enjoyment of the pax on their day out.

You may also be fascinated to learn, and this no doubt.... to your way of "thinking", will be yet another "union throwback " that the Bardic lamp is still very much in use, again for something so inconsequential as......safety.

The nice man I was speaking to, very recently in fact, was an RAiB inspector and he was quite happy I was capable of performing as trained with the above items.

Anyway, here's Steve Bell's view of matters......perfectly summated, as always.

https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...trikes-cartoon

I saw the programme - very entertaining but - and there is a big but.
The train - I have travelled on that line but in the opposite direction - is a world away from 08.30 on a Wednesday morning on platform 2 at East Croydon with passengers several deep trying to board an already full and standing train. An eight coach train with a station time of four minutes and fifty passengers not in a particularly hurry in boarding and alighting simply doesn't compare with the free for all that can be encountered in a twenty five mile range of any city.
Steve Bell? Well, the inclusion of a caricature of Thatcher tells you what you need to know about the chip on that particular shoulder. Thatcher, the P.M. who said of proposed rail privatisation, "it's a privatisation too far".
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Old 20th Dec 2016, 15:37   #97 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
Are you saying 9 incidents in 5 years is acceptable, and rather than spend any further money in reducing this number further, any further victims should be offered compensation as that will be cheaper ?
Or if that number is not acceptable, what number do you propose ? And why? How much is the incremental cost? And who will pay it? The taxpayer?
Or the compensation payments....how much would you have paid to the victims of the 9 incidents ?
I think the point is the risk is so small it doesn't justify putting a guard on the train to stop it happening.

That is not to say things shouldn't be done to stop it happen though. Multiple CCTV cameras that are shown on a screen visible to the driver seems to be the best way on many lines and certainly gives a better overall picture as to what is happening on a busy platform than having one guard.
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Old 20th Dec 2016, 15:49   #98 (permalink)
 
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Prophead

I completely agree with you.

But I don't think radeng does.
But would be more than happy for him to confirm he is also in violent agreement.

Radeng ?
Well do you?
Is the risk so small it's not worth having a guard operate the doors ?
Is the level of risk acceptable ?
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Old 20th Dec 2016, 15:59   #99 (permalink)
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" is a world away from 08.30 on a Wednesday morning on platform 2 at East Croydon with passengers several deep trying to board an already full and standing train. An eight coach train with a station time of four minutes and fifty passengers not in a particularly hurry in boarding and alighting simply doesn't compare with the free for all that can be encountered in a twenty five mile range of any city.

I never suggested the programme was comparative, other than to show the guard using a flag and.....as with UK railways, a whistle.

[I"]Steve Bell? Well, the inclusion of a caricature of Thatcher tells you what you need to know about the chip on that particular shoulder. Thatcher, the P.M. who said of proposed rail privatisation, "it's a privatisation too far[/I]"

Erm, actually, the cartoon is not a caricature of the unlamented deceased, it's a depiction of the current Gov't and their contempt for most of the populace of the UK, those living in, or close to poverty in particular hence the hypocritical irony of the accusation levelled at the unions involved.


" I think the point is the risk is so small it doesn't justify putting a guard on the train to stop it happening "

Well that's worth knowing, or rather, your indifference to safety on the purely cost driven basis of the removal of a member of a train crew simply because, thus far, the accident / incident level has, thankfully, been relatively low.
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Old 20th Dec 2016, 16:30   #100 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blues&twos View Post
Not getting into the politics here, merely the safety aspect.
It is worth remembering that accidents prevented are mostly impossible to quantify.
They are, and I have no idea what the current value of a lost life is, but around 20 years ago we worked on a rough rule of thumb that said a death was around £1M when doing cost/benefit calcs for military kit. I would guess that then the figure would have been higher for a civilian death, but I have no experience of looking at cost/benefit in something like a railway operation.

If I were to hazard a guess, then I'd probably estimate that a lost life due to a train incident would be somewhere north of £10M, adding in all the peripheral costs, like lost business, damage to reputation, etc, as well as the direct cost in compensation, insurance premiums, fines etc.

Cost and risk are always pretty challenging things to quantify, especially for something like this where the risk is relatively low but the potential impact quite high.

I think I mentioned before, but as I see it there probably isn't a "one size fits all" solution. Long trains and curved platforms, with loads of passengers getting on and off are a world away from short trains on straight platforms with only a few passengers. What may be an acceptable risk on the latter may well not be on the former. I can say that I'd not really like to be a driver who had to check 20+ small video windows in the 2 or 3 second time window available, and be 100% sure that all the doors were closed and clear of obstruction, before pulling off. I'd probably be OK with checking half a dozen such images, from a smaller train, though.
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