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Old 18th Dec 2016, 17:49   #41 (permalink)
 
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If you read the reports, in some cases it's because the mechanism for detecting something trapped in the doors didn't work or that the design was inadequate to detect a thin strap or similar. In one case, it was a shoulder bag strap. There was at least one case where the force need to pull a strap out exceeded the specified amount. Another it was hand that wasn't detected. Now for many years, automatic doors on lifts will detect a finger and re-open, so why not on trains? Plus the extreme force needed to get straps, belts, scarf etc out if the doors start closing before the passenger has got clear.

Quote:
Safety an issue?
Clearly not. You can assert it is till you're blue in the face, doesn't change the fact that the experts say it is not.
So how do they explain the incidents that the RAIB has reported on - if not as safety related incidents?

Quote:
Do I see car workers going on strike because every car should be fitted with the most expensive and comprehensive system of air bags?
Why should they? How does that affect their working day?

I'm sure that those passengers who have had the accidents and suffered in some cases life changing injuries will be happy to know that because money can be saved they are expendable - which some here are seeming to suggest.
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Old 18th Dec 2016, 17:53   #42 (permalink)
 
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Having been a commuter for over 40 years, much of that was spent on "slam door" trains that had no corridor, the better to squeeze more passengers in. that was 12 sitting and often the same number standing. We could tolerate delays when they happened, infrequently and where beyond the control of the staff/management. But for many years the problem was that the overhead lines were run between pylons too far apart and would be prone to wind and pantograph damage, necessitating the replacement of quarter mile lengths instead of increasing the number of pylons thus shortening cable lengths.

Driver Only Operation is requirement of the Franchise.......
Thameslink (also part of the Southern family) run driver only trains driven by ASLEF members, but not apparently possible for ASLEF drivers on Southern..... WTF?

Whether the train has a second "operative" as conductor or ticket checker seems immaterial in the real world of busy commuter trains where it's hard to move, let alone pass down from one carriage to the next.

I put up with a lot over the 40 years, but there is no way I could manage a 2 hour journey on such an unreliable service.

Door operation by driver seems to work on other lines, it's not an unsafe practice and the infinitesimal number of incidents quoted (9 incidents in 5 years) would have aviation experts giving their eye teeth for, let alone the daily accident rates on roads.

This is not about public safety.

It is getting to the stage where it does seem more likely that Unions are arguing that ANY practice brought in since God was a boy is against their principles.

The good news though, is that baggage handlers are to strike, so perhaps lot of bags with pressies in will make it through to the proper carousels..........
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Old 18th Dec 2016, 19:07   #43 (permalink)
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Source? Evidence?
Southern trains 'cancelled despite drivers being free' - BBC News
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Old 18th Dec 2016, 19:27   #44 (permalink)
 
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This is not about public safety.

Icare9

+1

It is what the experts say.
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Old 19th Dec 2016, 06:14   #45 (permalink)
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" You will shed a tear and reach for the Kleenex? There are indeed a few stations close to upper Warlingham. But perhaps you can advise on which other rail operators serve the station? I am touched by your obviously false and sneering sincerity aimed at me and my fellow commuter.

Thank you for a decidedly eclectic response. From whence came the inspiration, at 11.26, we can only ponder.

However, I was amazed to learn, that, there will in fact only be two people commuting. The other commuter does indeed have my heartfelt sympathy therefore.

But, quite astoundingly, almost akin to winning the lottery in fact, so statistically remote is the chance, you have made a factual observation.

Notably, there is only one TOC at the stations adjacent to Warlingham.

Still, given the forecast for today, you will, I am sure, be able to sit by the pool ( there appears to be a surfeit of useless status symbols in this effluent area of Mother England ) sipping G n T's instead of enduring the commute to work.....which can only be viewed as a positive benefit to your life.

Alternatively, have you considered the option of travelling by bus ?

" Firstly there are many stations with curved platforms such that it is physically impossible to see all the doors from any one place on the platform. Classical examples include York and Brighton, and older disused stations like Folkstone Harbour and Bishops Stoughton show that these curved platforms have been around for a very long time, so the guards have never been able to perform this duty with any integrity

Well yes indeed, disused stations are noted for their high density passenger numbers....well done !

However, and here your powers of observation may need to be reviewed, as indeed does your audible capability , with regard to curved platforms, and certainly at major termini, there are minions ( lets call them platform staff ) who liaise with.....the guard. Hence you may have heard the sound of whistles blowing ?

" Which in the real world translates as "The country and the passengers have been successfully blackmailed into paying for this patently valueless member of a train operating crew for many decades "

The real world rarely influences the lives of many posters on JB so it was thoughtful of you to even mention it. Sadly, your grasp of this world appears to conform to the myopia so prevalent on here.

You will be delighted to learn therefore, that, I have, and remain, more than happy to contribute to the salaries of the, "patently valueless member of a train operating crew", both currently and over the years. I have never felt that I have been coerced or, "blackmailed ".....a charming term I have to say, when trusting my personal safety to professional train crew.

And now, back to that perennial JB favourite.......union bashing.

Until, that is, some of you are involved in an incident / accident personally...the howls of anguish that would follow would make a non Stage 3 compliant engine sound like a whisper in comparison.

Last edited by Krystal n chips; 19th Dec 2016 at 06:42.
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Old 19th Dec 2016, 07:45   #46 (permalink)
 
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K&C

Such a sneering arrogant response.
Again, you show appalling grasp of English.
You will be delighted to know that there is a concept of "the commuter". Counted in their number is the "man on the Clapham omnibus"....
Maybe you'll even be amazed or astounded again. Apparently you are amazed or astounded at the slightest of imagined matters. Must be a fascinating world to live in.
It provides me with amusement to dangle a grammar worm on a rod, and you bite every time, and show your ignorance.
But back in the real world, people have to work. I condemn this strike that has nothing to do with safety. But you have received wisdom that all a Union does is for the common good, and requires mindless support. Right up your alley perhaps?
That I live in an affluent area, but with plenty of very modest houses too, seems to anger you. Good.
Sit by the pool drinking G&T? Is this what you imagine people do in surrey ? Like you I could say thank you for such a decidedly eclectic response. And from whence came the inspiration at 6.14 ? But I won't. Better to suggest you seek some therapy dear chap. Such anger and loathing directed at the perceived Tory voter in surrey.
Oooooh, look. The Tory voter. Is that just one person?

But back to the strike. I note there is now talk of new legislation to combat union action such as this.
Too late, useless government.
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Old 19th Dec 2016, 08:14   #47 (permalink)
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Quote:
Again, you show appalling grasp of English.
Should that not read "...an appalling grasp...".
When you say "people have to work", consider this. Is it possible that the underlying concerns for the guards/collectors (or whatever) are not so much safety but job security. Southern talk about the guard being focussed on revenue collection, yet I understand they have introduced their own version of the Oyster card and are proposing this be expanded to include on-board self ticketing. So, eventually, they can bin the on train revenue collector, leading eventually to a 50% reduction in staffing levels. Now, if that theory has any grounds, then it flies in the face of "people have to work".
Just a theory!
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Old 19th Dec 2016, 08:43   #48 (permalink)
 
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Originally Posted by Icare9 View Post
This is not about public safety.

It is getting to the stage where it does seem more likely that Unions are arguing that ANY practice brought in since God was a boy is against their principles.
It never had anything to do with safety...

Quote:
The union leader behind the Christmas rail strikes said industrial action had been coordinated to “bring down this bloody working-class-hating Tory government”, it has been claimed.

RMT president Sean Hoyle reportedly said the union's "rule number one" was to “strive to replace the capitalist system with a socialist order”.
Anyone who believes otherwise is a fool or a liar.

"Socialist order"! Just ask the people of Venezuela.
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Old 19th Dec 2016, 10:30   #49 (permalink)
 
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Kelvin

Indeed. I have missed an "an".

"Not so much safety but job security".
+1
Agree with you.

People have to work. Agree this is a generalisation. I think there are many that do not work, and also many that would not work if they did not need to.

Sitigelftfel

Never had anything to do with safety
+1
Agree with you.
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Old 19th Dec 2016, 10:35   #50 (permalink)
 
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Use of the singular noun as a collective...

Look 'round, the Frenchman loves its blaze,
The sturdy German chants its praise,
In Moscow's vaults its hymns are sung
Chicago swells the surging throng.

Arguably a rousing song that for some that know its origin....
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Old 19th Dec 2016, 10:44   #51 (permalink)
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Careful Mrangry, that'll be a red rag to some on here....
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Old 19th Dec 2016, 11:15   #52 (permalink)
 
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Very seasonal, Mr Angry

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Old 19th Dec 2016, 11:30   #53 (permalink)
 
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DAILY MAIL COMMENT: Real motives of the union dinosaurs | Daily Mail Online

Quote:
In a speech dripping with class hatred, the RMT president told fellow hard-Left activists of the sinister National Shop Stewards Network the key aim was to overthrow capitalism and bring down the Tory government. 'If we all spit together,' he said, 'we can drown the bastards.'

Brothers in arms: How unions bankroll Jeremy Corbyn and he REFUSES to condemn strikes that are bringing Christmas misery to millions | Daily Mail Online
Quote:
At the meeting in Brighton, RMT president Sean Hoyle referred to a report that his and other hard-left unions were ‘co-ordinating to bring the government down ... Shock horror. Guess what? We bloody are,’ he said.

‘Any trade unionist with any sense wants to bring down this bloody working-class-hating Tory government ... That’s what we’re about.”

Shadow chancellor John McDonnell sent a text message . . . . that said: ‘Brothers and sisters, I send solidarity greetings to you and all those workers engaged in struggle at present. . . . . Jeremy Corbyn and I will be there with you. Solidarity.’
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Old 19th Dec 2016, 11:45   #54 (permalink)
 
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Originally Posted by Krystal n chips View Post
But, quite astoundingly, almost akin to winning the lottery in fact, so statistically remote is the chance, you have made a factual observation.
So that means he/she is currently leading you by 15-love. New balls please.

Quote:
Still, given the forecast for today, you will, I am sure, be able to sit by the pool ( there appears to be a surfeit of useless status symbols in this effluent area of Mother England ) sipping G n T's instead of enduring the commute to work.....which can only be viewed as a positive benefit to your life.
And here we get to the nub of the issue. Mr/Mrs Krystal Meth is incapable of seeing anything he disagrees with without jeering at it. Quite what swimming pools and G&T's have to do with anything is unclear, but that never stops the petty jibes of the self-abused effluencia when they can't actually refute an argument.

Quote:
Well yes indeed, disused stations are noted for their high density passenger numbers....well done !
You mentioned that these practices were old and well-proven. I provided the evidence to show that they had never been of any value and were merely job-creations schemes for the terminally unemployable. I appreciate that such subtlety can be difficult for the hard-of thinking, so perhaps you can get a grown-up to explain it to you. Of course I also referenced some current railway stations, but they didn't fit your argument so you ignored that because it needed non-zero levels of integrity.

Quote:
However, and here your powers of observation may need to be reviewed, as indeed does your audible capability , with regard to curved platforms, and certainly at major termini, there are minions ( lets call them platform staff ) who liaise with.....the guard. Hence you may have heard the sound of whistles blowing ?
At the stations I've been at with curved platforms (with the exception of York) there are no staff AT ALL except during the busiest periods, and such staff as there are at the station are taken up with far more important tasks like making tea and selling the most expensive tickets for any given journey, so they're never on platforms blowing whistles (how quaint - presumably anything more modern has been veto'd by the unions in their usual policy of trying to freeze the world in some mythical 17th century idyll). So that claim is simply untrue. AN untrue claim from a railway union supporter - who'd have thought it?

Quote:
The real world rarely influences the lives of many posters on JB so it was thoughtful of you to even mention it. Sadly, your grasp of this world appears to conform to the myopia so prevalent on here.

You will be delighted to learn therefore, that, I have, and remain, more than happy to contribute to the salaries of the, "patently valueless member of a train operating crew", both currently and over the years. I have never felt that I have been coerced or, "blackmailed ".....a charming term I have to say, when trusting my personal safety to professional train crew.

And now, back to that perennial JB favourite.......union bashing.

Until, that is, some of you are involved in an incident / accident personally...the howls of anguish that would follow would make a non Stage 3 compliant engine sound like a whisper in comparison.
Oh OK - now everyone in the world is unaware of the "real world" apart from you. Of course. How silly of us not to see it.

I suggest you need to get yourself some psychiatric help, mate. All that Krystal is clearly damaging what little brain function you were born with.

Meanwhile - I see that all this militant action by the brainless few of the Jurassic tendency in the TU movement are now going to destroy it for their more sentient comrades. There is now a growing cross-party support for the removal of TU protection from lawsuits so that those people whose jobs and businesses are damaged by these buffoons can hold them financially accountable for their actions. So we will soon have hundreds of TU officials stripped of everything but the unwashed underpants they stand in. But we'll send 'em round to Krystal's place. As he's clearly the only person in the UK without a swimming pool there should be room in his garden for them to pitch some tents while he makes them tea and sandwiches as befits a person of such effluence in the community...

PDR
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Old 19th Dec 2016, 12:24   #55 (permalink)
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PDR: Getting somewhat vitriolic in your recent postings, aren't you?
As for Surrey, my son delivers parcels in a part of that county. A part of the county where the front gate and the front door are almost in different post codes, so huge are they. He has had a few compliments from his customers but in the main he tends to get false allegations thrown at him from the swimming pool owners. (The usual fiction of "he didn't knock" or "he was 10 minutes early" etc. All complaints etc are investigated by his managers and have been found to be groundless in every case. Before he went to work this morning, I asked him if his customers had been generous with Xmas tips this year. "Same as last year, one customer gave me a couple of quid a week ago". From what he says about the residents of that part of England, they must surely be qualifiers for a "most miserable buggers in England" award!
(Never mind, his employers know how to reward their employees at Xmas for a good year's work. They gave their workers at the bottom of the food chain the same Xmas bonus this year as they did last; 2 sheets of First Class postage stamps! I kid you not.) So I, for one, can understand at least some of the resentment engendered by the Surrey Set.
Re the possibility of anti-union legislation: I presume you would be happy with a return to the days of grinding the buggers under the boot. I was once anti-union. Then I left the sheltered employment of HM Forces and gradually shifted from indifferent to pro-union. Unions do not exist to piss off the public over their Xmas travel arrangements. Nor do they exist as a subterfuge to introduce Son of Stalin to this country.
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Old 19th Dec 2016, 12:39   #56 (permalink)
 
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As a daily commuter with Southern Rail, these strikes have been going on for so long now that I've just accepted them as the norm. I couldn't care less whether there's a guard on board for my safety. The reality is that in all my years of commuting, you could count on one hand the number of times I've actually seen a guard on the train. Most of the announcements come from the driver, so I'm dubious as to their existence at all during rush hour.

I can't understand why, if this action is in the name of safety, do the unions compound the "safety" issue by forcing us on to over crowded trains (two weeks ago, a fellow commuter passed out on the train and was worryingly ill), discontent on the platforms (I've actually witnessed fights among frustrated passengers) and hours of delays? Isn't this counter productive to the safety argument?

It's got to the point where I don't care who presses what button, who's got the moral high ground or indeed who's job is threatened or not.

Thanks to the trains, I no longer get to see my 9 month old son from Monday to Friday as I have to leave the house before he wakes, and return home long after he's gone to bed. All because I have to be at the station early to make sure I can get to work on time, and I'm late home because more often than not, trains are cancelled or delayed. Southern Rail, and / or the unions are stealing from me time with my son and family, and whoever's "right" or "wrong", that is unforgivable in my book.
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Old 19th Dec 2016, 13:07   #57 (permalink)
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As an added bonus, two for the price of one......of course, it's not about safety thus the views of the driver in the second article would be classed as superfluous by many on here....

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...ti-strike-laws

PDR....what can I say !

A true masterpiece of eloquence and sentiment, so coherently encapsulated in one post.

I had thought that the immortal "having a dig at your betters"...would be hard to beat, although the author of that sentiment has been strangely silent when it comes to the latest rail controversy, but, he and I both know the reason why....don't we...."Captain "....and then came a close runner up, from our resident political and social affairs correspondent about "living a lifestyle you can only dream of"...as ever, fundamentally wrong....both, now, completely usurped by your own contribution.

Pour yourself a triple Hemlock old boy, with ice and tonic and a twist off lemon, to celebrate !

There will, after all, be no detrimental effect on your bloodstream, kidney's or liver.

Just to confirm however, my gender is male.

Now, back to your lamentable lack of knowledge...as kindly exemplified by this statement.

" so they're never on platforms blowing whistles (how quaint - presumably anything more modern has been veto'd by the unions in their usual policy of trying to freeze the world in some mythical 17th century idyll). So that claim is simply untrue. AN untrue claim from a railway union supporter - who'd have thought it?


The use of a whistle is not, as you choose to describe it. The whistle is there for very positive and safety related reasons. It's an audible attention getting reference for train crew and passengers alike....and.... it works. Has done for many years in fact.

I do travel around the rail network, do you I wonder ?... and admit to having an interest in the railways, past and present, thus whilst I have no idea as to which stations you may use, from my experience, whenever a station has operational platform staff.....and please note Southerns proposal for their future in the article link, trains are invariably dispatched with both a whistle and a "bat".

Last edited by Krystal n chips; 19th Dec 2016 at 13:37.
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Old 19th Dec 2016, 13:22   #58 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KelvinD View Post
PDR: Getting somewhat vitriolic in your recent postings, aren't you?
Just responding in the same tone as the insideous chyrstal - they don't line it up 'em, you know.

Quote:
From what he says about the residents of that part of England, they must surely be qualifiers for a "most miserable buggers in England" award!
Qualifies as a racist remark, of course. Clasism and racism - rather what we expect from that side of this argument.

Quote:
Re the possibility of anti-union legislation: I presume you would be happy with a return to the days of grinding the buggers under the boot.
No, I very much would not. What I am "complaining about" is the way the corrupt, fraudulent, cynical and utterly self-serving pieces of sub-human ordure who are leading their blind and brainless acolytes into these strikes are creating a situation where the good that unions do will not be sufficient to offset the manifest evil of their despotic leaders. So as a society we will not be able to afford the presence of unions and will lose them forever.

I call upon all the normal, sentient and rational union members to rise up and depose their mendacious and despotic officials. the time has come for a night of the long knives so that they can wrest control of their lives back from these hateful people.

PDR

Last edited by PDR1; 19th Dec 2016 at 14:03.
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Old 19th Dec 2016, 13:42   #59 (permalink)
 
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Looking at unions in general, from outside as I've never been a member, I believe that they have done a vast amount of good for this country. Their good has been greatly in excess of their harm.

This Southern business is one of the latter category, and if it results in further legislation to restrict union power it will be very counter-productive.

But then I ask, is it the intention of a few radicals to deliberately encourage strong anti-union legislation that will result in widespread industrial and political unrest?
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Old 19th Dec 2016, 13:44   #60 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Krystal n chips View Post
PDR....what can I say !
Perhaps you could say less and listen more - your limited mental capacity appears incapable of duplex operation.

Quote:
I had thought that the immortal "having a dig at your betters"...would be hard to beat, although the author of that sentiment has been strangely silent when it comes to the latest rail controversy, but, he and I both know the reason why....don't we...."Captain "....and then came a close runner up, from our resident political and social affairs correspondent about "living a lifestyle you can only dream of"...as ever, fundamentally wrong....both, now, completely usurped by your own contribution.
So now you cite fictitious references to remarks I didn't make and try to suggest they are relevant. The ultimate straw man! What a pointless set of remarks.

Quote:
Just to confirm however, my gender is male.
These things are matters of opinion. In current legal definitions whilst sex is a matter of biology, gender assignment is a personal choice. Only sentient beings can make such choices, and the jury is very much out on whether you'd be legally so entitled.

Quote:
The use of a whistle is not, as you choose to describe it. The whistle is there for very positive and safety related reasons.
Again, if you'd stop hogging the mike and allow some "receive mode" occasionally - what I said was that the use of the whistle was precisely as I described it in the sense of it being absent. It is completely absent because there are no staff at these stations to blow any whistles. So these "positive and safety related" essential functions are never performed. Yet nobody died. Bizzare, huh?

Quote:
I do travel around the rail network, do you I wonder ?...
Oh, the old "I am the only person in the whole universe who is competent to judge" horse excrement. Yes, I probably do four or five train journeys a month. So your assumption here is wrong, your logic fails even the slightest scrutiny and your claims fail tests of fact. Congratulations - you have passed the aptitude test for ASLEF officials...

PDR
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