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Old 17th Dec 2016, 11:58   #21 (permalink)
 
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I feel better now

But will no doubt have steam coming out of my ears next week after having to deal with the next planned strike on Monday and Tuesday.
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Old 17th Dec 2016, 16:06   #22 (permalink)
 
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Leaving aside the Liverpool case, if it's so safe, why has there been 9 incidents in five years of people being dragged along when trapped by hands or clothing?

As a percentage of the people travelling, it is admittedly small. So does that make it acceptable?
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Old 17th Dec 2016, 16:08   #23 (permalink)
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" the unions.......the interests of the travelling public". It's been a while since I read such an ignorant statement.
I suggest the poster of this statement also learns grammar. The use of "it's" instead of "its" is a rudimentary schoolboy error
.

Ah, that wud be me den....mi hartfelt apologees as to me standud of litrucee.

Actually, I am far from naïve, as you kindly suggested, with regard to the politics behind this debacle. That, and safety is an issue, despite the protestations made on here.

Of course, being fortunate enough to be able to speak ( and listen to ) professional rail people and drivers about this could influence my opinion in this respect.

"Secondly Grayling IMHO is not fit to be a member of Southern management"

Alas, when it comes to "ignorant statements", surely even a rudimentary check would reveal Grayling is, in fact, the Transport Secretary and not part of Southern management.....as you thoughtfully stated.

As Warlingham is blessed with no less than three stations in close proximity, you will be spoilt for choice as to which to select from on Monday / Tuesday.

You may rest assured I will be reaching for the Kleenex as I think of your inconvenience.
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Old 17th Dec 2016, 16:32   #24 (permalink)
 
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Leaving aside the Liverpool case, if it's so safe, why has there been 9 incidents in five years of people being dragged along when trapped by hands or clothing?
Could it perhaps be because they have been careless about their personal safety when getting into/out of the train doors?
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Old 17th Dec 2016, 16:46   #25 (permalink)
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" Could it perhaps be because they have been careless about their personal safety when getting into/out of the train doors " ?

That is a very distinct, and relevant, possibility given human beings can become remarkably blasé about their own, and others, personal safety when travelling.

However, in a well regulated and safety critical transport environment, surely the case for having other human beings tasked with ensuring passengers safety, cannot be over emphasised enough.

DOO trains are fine, for accountants and statisticians , but it's far from unreasonable to expect accidents / incidents like those mentioned to become isolated cases in statistical terms when increased usage of DOO trains will, inevitably, result in an increase of such events.
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Old 17th Dec 2016, 16:57   #26 (permalink)
 
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How would a conductor in (say) carriage 3 (a) identify and (b) rectify a trapped coat in the doors of (say) carriage 12 of a typical packed-to-the-gunnels Southern rush hour commuter train before the train had set off?

The whole claim is a pile of male bovine botty-biscuits.

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Old 17th Dec 2016, 17:01   #27 (permalink)
 
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Yes and no, Sallyann. In some cases the safety systems failed ( by that I mean the electromechanical door devices, as clearly the 'overall' safety systems failed in each case). While it is true that some people are reckless in their conduct, we have to be careful about dismissing accidents caused by people being careless. A wide variety of the public use the transport infrastructure including the young, the vulnerable, the inexperienced and so on. A guard would not allow a train to depart when they can see a person on the platform with, for example, their trailing rucksack strap caught in a closed door. A small image among several on a screen, presented to a driver may well not pick this up.
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Old 18th Dec 2016, 03:40   #28 (permalink)
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For me, a lot of people say this is a problem of southern management's making. I would agree they are not the world's best. But this is clearly a union gone bad. And I suspect the rise is industrial action from unite at the post office and BA is not coincidence.
Rail union boss vows to topple Tories | News | The Times & The Sunday Times

A militant union leader behind the rail strikes causing chaos for millions says unions are co-ordinating action to “bring down this bloody working-class-hating Tory government”. Sean Hoyle, president of the RMT, declared that “rule No 1” for his union, whose members have held a string of strikes on the beleaguered Southern rail network, was to “strive to replace the capitalist system with a socialist order”, telling a meeting of hard-left activists last month, “if we all spit together we can drown the bastards”.

Details of his comments, made in a series of recent speeches, come as Britain faces a Christmas of transport chaos, with a wave of strikes this week and into the new year. More than 1,500 check-in staff, baggage handlers and cargo crew at 18 airports are set to strike for 48 hours from Friday, while British Airways cabin crew based at Heathrow are due to walk out on Christmas Day and Boxing Day. MT conductors on Southern are planning another five days of strikes in the next fortnight, and the most disruptive rail strike for more than 20 years is due to start on January 9, when Southern’s train drivers walk out for a marathon six days............

At a meeting in Brighton in September, Hoyle referred to a report in The Sunday Times that hard-left unions including his own were “co-ordinating to bring the government down . . . Shock horror. Guess what? We bloody are,” he said. “Any trade unionist with any sense wants to bring down this bloody working-class-hating Tory government. That’s what we want to do. That’s what we’re about.”

The meeting was organised by the National Shop Stewards Network (NSSN), a group run by Trotskyites from the former Militant tendency which works to “link up all the strikes” to “get the Tories out”. As well as Hoyle, the network includes Dave Ward, general secretary of the Communication Workers Union, whose members are due to strike for five days from tomorrow in an action which will close some post offices. At an NSSN meeting last year, Ward described the network as being “at the core of what trade unionism must be about . . . We will play our part as a trade union in going beyond the law.” The NSSN has also been active in disputes at Heathrow, including a British Airways dispute earlier this year.

At a conference last month hosted by the Socialist Party, formerly Militant tendency, Hoyle spelt out how “rule No 1” for the union was to “strive” to replace capitalism with socialism. “That mustn’t just be empty words. I certainly believe it. I certainly try to do my best to push in that direction.” In a YouTube video of his speech posted last week, Hoyle quoted Bob Crow, the late firebrand RMT leader, saying that: “If you spit on your own they just wipe it away. But if we all spit together we can drown the bastards.”........

It can also be revealed that:

•Aslef signed a deal with the company only eight months ago to allow driver-only operation of Southern trains when a guard was not available — almost precisely the issue it is striking about now

•More than half the trains which use the main line between London and Gatwick airport are already driver-only — with the unions’ full agreement. Of the 318 weekday trains 168, or 53%, operate without guards opening and closing the doors........

•Despite union claims that driver-only trains are “inherently unsafe”, only one passenger in the past decade has died while boarding or alighting from a train. The train concerned had a guard..........
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Old 18th Dec 2016, 04:18   #29 (permalink)
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" How would a conductor in (say) carriage 3 (a) identify and (b) rectify a trapped coat in the doors of (say) carriage 12 of a typical packed-to-the-gunnels Southern rush hour commuter train before the train had set off?

The whole claim is a pile of male bovine botty-biscuits.

PDR "


Either (a) you don't travel by train very much and even if you do, you clearly don't take much interest into what actually happens when a train stops to pick up passengers....or...(b) not much, if any, forethought has gone into your question......or both of course.

The guard is required to alight on a platform, the doors on modern trains can all be controlled from any carriage, and thereafter monitor pax embarking / disembarking.

The Mk1 eyeball comes in quite useful at this point.

Once said guard is happy all the pax are on / off, he/she beeps the driver twice, gets the same in return, and the train and its pax happily bimble off to the next destination......safely.

This tried and tested process has been around for many years and works remarkably well.

No train leaves without the authority of the guard confirming it is safe to do so.
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Old 18th Dec 2016, 09:49   #30 (permalink)
 
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9 incidents in 5 years

Which makes what sort of tiny fraction of the millions of passengers journeys made in that 5 year period?

Do I hear you squealing about the carnage on the roads? Of the thousands that are hurt every year? That this is such an inherently unsafe method of travel it should be scrapped? Do I see car workers going on strike because every car should be fitted with the most expensive and comprehensive system of air bags?
Any idea of the EXTRA carnage caused on the roads due to the strike?

That human life is so fragile that we all need to be wrapped in cotton wool, and that every possible risk has money thrown at it?
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Old 18th Dec 2016, 09:56   #31 (permalink)
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Southern have today cancelled trains, despite there being drivers available. And blamed the drivers!
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Old 18th Dec 2016, 10:22   #32 (permalink)
 
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Source? Evidence?

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Old 18th Dec 2016, 10:26   #33 (permalink)
 
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Far from naive ?

I beg to differ. I think you are, notwithstanding your claim to advancing years.

Safety an issue?
Clearly not. You can assert it is till you're blue in the face, doesn't change the fact that the experts say it is not.

Your English grammar is also clearly deficient. A statement that someone "is not fit to be" something, does not mean the person is that something.
Just so you can understand, let me explain. if I had thought Grayling was not the transport secretary but indeed one of the woeful members of Southern management, I would have said he was not fit to remain a member of Southern management. Simple use of English which people use in the real world.
Or to labour the point....say a person aspiring for selection as the Tory candidate in a local by election. He is told of his application, "Ah, Mr Bloggs. We have considered your application and have to inform you, given your lack of any obvious sexual deviancy or conviction for financial fraud, that the selection committee believe you not to be fit to be a Tory MP".

You will shed a tear and reach for the Kleenex? There are indeed a few stations close to upper Warlingham. But perhaps you can advise on which other rail operators serve the station? I am touched by your obviously false and sneering sincerity aimed at me and my fellow commuter.

With your negotiating ability, I don't suggest you apply for one of the many vacancies in the department for exiting the EU. I suspect you might be told you are not fit to be a skilled negotiator.

Oh loooooook. Not fit "to be" again. With no suggestion you currently are employed in the department for exiting the EU.
When a teacher says to little Jimmy at a school. "Hello Jimmy. When you grow up, do you want to be an engineer / doctor / train conductor like your father?"
Oooooh. And again....this concept of "to be". As in to become....

And finally, to quote from Hamlet, "to be, or not to be: that is the question:"
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Old 18th Dec 2016, 10:36   #34 (permalink)
 
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Thank goodness I dont need or use any form of rail service, but many do, thus I would suggest the rule of law should be changed to make it illegal to strike on any system that carried the General Public to and from their place of work.

Some may instantly try to shout down such comments from people such a I, but the unions appear at the moment to be on a crash course with the owners of the Rail Companies,...so why are they making it Political to bring down the Tory Government...are they (the Union Leaders) paid by some distant Countries as we have discovered their predecessors in other Unions were??
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Old 18th Dec 2016, 10:39   #35 (permalink)
 
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Broken down trains

One of the tactics being used, seems to be the withdrawal from service trains which have developed problems.
Anecdotal evidence from engineers suggests that when the trains get into the workshops, the problems which caused the train to be withdrawn from service cannot be recreated.
Some might say there never were any genuine problems.
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Old 18th Dec 2016, 10:46   #36 (permalink)
 
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Originally Posted by Krystal n chips View Post
Either (a) you don't travel by train very much and even if you do, you clearly don't take much interest into what actually happens when a train stops to pick up passengers....or...(b) not much, if any, forethought has gone into your question......or both of course.
Yes, that's right - when you are flogging a bankrupt cause for and on behalf of a cynical group of self-serving trade union despots it's always item one on the playbook to attack the messenger. That's the supporting evidence to show your claim is just loose-stool water. But let's focus on the core point rather than the supporting evidence:

Quote:
The guard is required to alight on a platform, the doors on modern trains can all be controlled from any carriage, and thereafter monitor pax embarking / disembarking.

The Mk1 eyeball comes in quite useful at this point.

Once said guard is happy all the pax are on / off, he/she beeps the driver twice, gets the same in return, and the train and its pax happily bimble off to the next destination......safely.
Which all sounds reasonable until you examine the detail and test it - things I observe on the many times I actually use trains.

Firstly there are many stations with curved platforms such that it is physically impossible to see all the doors from any one place on the platform. Classical examples include York and Brighton, and older disused stations like Folkstone Harbour and Bishops Stoughton show that these curved platforms have been around for a very long time, so the guards have never been able to perform this duty with any integrity.

Secondly there's the detail that in rush-hour times the platforms are often so crowded that no one has a hope of guaranteeing to see all the doors even on a straight platform, so again the guards can't actually perform this duty with integrity.

Thirdly you can look at the dozens of curved platforms on the London Underground, where no one can see the doors even of they want to. Of course these are driver-only trains - are they safe because the presiding ASLEF Shop Steward waves a magic wand or something?

Quote:
This tried and tested process has been around for many years and works remarkably well.
Which in the real world translates as "The country and the passengers have been successfully blackmailed into paying for this patently valueless member of a train operating crew for many decades".

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Old 18th Dec 2016, 11:00   #37 (permalink)
 
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"Secondly there's the detail that in rush-hour times the platforms are often so crowded that no one has a hope of guaranteeing to see all the doors even on a straight platform, so again the guards can't actually perform this duty with integrity."

Completely agree. The extraordinarily dangerous platform conditions, where passengers attempt to crush onto one service, often with fewer than normal coaches, and following several previous cancellations, make it impossible for any guard, conductor, driver or platform staff to control passengers in a safe manner. I have seen passengers holding doors open, wrenching them open to free someone who is trapped but the guard was oblivious. Where the train rolls into the station the passengers crowd around the doors like a pack of zombies waiting for feeding time. Passenger behaviour has become feral at times.

And this was the train company, when they first started the works at London Bridge, held passengers outside the station because it was unsafe and crowded in the station. Trains were departing empty. Well no fekkin wonder the station was crowded if passengers were not being allowed to board.....
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Old 18th Dec 2016, 11:06   #38 (permalink)
 
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CCTV

I have observed at some stations a camera looking down along the platform, with a display screen positioned for the driver to check for passengers at the doors.

Doesn't this provide the driver with the necessary view? It seems to me that an elevated camera will have a better view than a guard standing on the platform and surrounded by a crowd of "customers "
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Old 18th Dec 2016, 11:14   #39 (permalink)
 
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That's just the sort of modern technology that ASLEF are determined to stamp out - they've made it very clear that anything invented after 1790 is automatically banned.

Well until the relevant assessment fee has been trousered by the union officials, of course.

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Old 18th Dec 2016, 12:20   #40 (permalink)
 
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Meg Hillier MP

Has just been on the news. Her view is that unions need to think about the impact on those that rely on rail travel, particularly at this time of year.
And if they are not careful, they might end of shooting themsleves in the foot.

Brings me back to someone's statement about these strikes being in part for the benefit of the travelling public.
The more I think of this statement I don't think it is just ignorant.
It's also crass.
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