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Old 27th Jan 2017, 14:05   #221 (permalink)
 
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Didn't similar safety fears arise when transatlantic flights commenced with two engine aircraft? Yet to-day hundreds of two engine aircraft carrying hundreds of people cross the pond.
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Old 27th Jan 2017, 14:26   #222 (permalink)
 
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For political balance, nationalisation of the railways is now official Labour policy isn't it? So the hazard here is that the unions have an interest in disrupting the current arrangement. If there weren't fundamentalists like Tosh about perhaps people would listen to the safety arguments touted routinely about.
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Old 27th Jan 2017, 20:24   #223 (permalink)
 
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Safety

In my view, there should be some sort of public enquiry to establish what is safe
With expert evidence given appropriately, and the enquiry resourced appropriately
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Old 27th Jan 2017, 20:33   #224 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by mrangryofwarlingham View Post
In my view, there should be some sort of public enquiry to establish what is safe
With expert evidence given appropriately, and the enquiry resourced appropriately
That's impossible - as it depends on how the passengers behave.

Nothing can be guaranteed 'safe' - we drive cars but there are fatal 'accidents'.
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Old 27th Jan 2017, 22:12   #225 (permalink)
 
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Phil,

How much did it cost to establish the reliability of ETPOS operation? Would one 'pilot operation' be 'safe enough'? What is 'safe enough'?

It would probably be acceptable if one man operation of a train led to a mandatory payment of at least 500,000 for a death plus the loss of income for life assuming a reasonable increase in pay, lifetime support for dependents and also where serious injury etc occurred....Now although OMO was not involved, payments of that nature would have meant pay outs of at least 3.5 million plus at Potters Bar and probably more.

Quaere: How much does getting rid of second safety trained railway man save, and if a mandatory compensation scheme costing say 3 million per dead PAX (assuming he/she was single - more if there were family/kids involved or life altering serious injuries) would it still be economic?

leaving aside the social costs of a (possibly) unemployed guard? Although when one reads the RAIB reports and reads of a chronic shortage of staff, one can only assume that it's down to poor pay not attracting people....

I am not sure that the economic case is as simple as would at first appear.....
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Old 28th Jan 2017, 08:53   #226 (permalink)
 
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Impossible to say what is and what is not safe because it depends on how passengers behave?

Never heard such nonsense in my life.

Like saying it is impossible to differentiate a safe football stadium with safe working practices from an unsafe stadium, because it all depends on how football supporters behave.
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Old 28th Jan 2017, 09:55   #227 (permalink)
 
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radeng
In answer to your direct question of value, it might be instructive to look at amounts awarded by courts after deaths caused by e.g. dangerous driving.

It will also be instructive to see how much compensation is awarded to the several victims of the transport company whose operators were sentenced yesterday. Assuming of course there was a valid insurance policy in place.
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Old 28th Jan 2017, 12:24   #228 (permalink)
 
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Not really. Raitrack value put on one death for ALARP in 2000 was of the order of 400k.
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Old 28th Jan 2017, 13:27   #229 (permalink)
 
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And then after Clapham, earlier still, the value bandied about in the courts was 1.4m per death.
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Old 28th Jan 2017, 17:35   #230 (permalink)
 
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Looking at airline compensation, it was raised to 21,000 in 1967 for death. Anyone able to figure what that is in today's money? Doesn't sound as if it's going to be a lot, especially for someone with a young family with say three kids and a mortgage who was on 100k a year.
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Old 28th Jan 2017, 19:35   #231 (permalink)
 
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Depends if punative elements are involved. Any proposal by the operator must surely have presented a safety case which, given the situation, was accepted. So the regulator and safety sme's must have accepted it as safe. The union, with self proclaimed political ambitions to dictate how the railways should be owned and run, and facing the disadvantage to a cadre of its members, declares the move to be unsafe. Whether this declaration was based on anything substantial other than judgement, perhaps their submissions to the regulator which must have been rejected ? isn't clear to me. What is clear is that the union has a clear conflict of interest and it's case is hindered by the self proclaimed political objective of the ASLEF leader. One step in their political ambitions was to bring the Labour Party into line. Job done.

If you think the union has statesman like characteristics and wants nothing more than a successful and efficient railway system run for the benefit of the country and its users, then ok.

If you are doubtful over the unions motives then it's hard to take their espousal of safety paramountcy with any degree of credibilty.

Last edited by Mr Optimistic; 28th Jan 2017 at 21:36.
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Old 29th Jan 2017, 16:11   #232 (permalink)
 
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If you are doubtful over the unions motives then it's hard to take their espousal of safety paramountcy with any degree of credibilty.
Of course, one could be accused of cynicism if suggesting the only reason the train companies apparently espouse safety is because they have been forced to over the last 170 or so years. The one is as bad as the other......
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Old 31st Jan 2017, 18:18   #233 (permalink)
 
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Inadvertent OMO?

Train guard left at Burley-in-Wharfedale station causes delay - BBC News
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Old 1st Feb 2017, 19:40   #234 (permalink)
 
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Radeng, nope that's a bit facile. Sheer commercial necessity forces it
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Old 16th Feb 2017, 15:02   #235 (permalink)
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Oh Joy! . . . . .
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Old 16th Feb 2017, 16:41   #236 (permalink)
 
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Many years ago, I knew a local NUM official. He told me that his biggest problems were not with management but with his own members. I rather suspect that the ASLEF officials are feeling that way at the moment.
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Old 16th Feb 2017, 18:24   #237 (permalink)
 
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"Aslef mah train in da station, mon."
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Old 16th Feb 2017, 20:55   #238 (permalink)
 
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English pricks - no brains. Seventy odd years ago, they'd have been wearing brown shirts. Pricks
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Old 18th Feb 2017, 21:54   #239 (permalink)
 
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Are you in ASLEF ?
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Old 18th Feb 2017, 22:22   #240 (permalink)

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English pricks - no brains. Seventy odd years ago, they'd have been wearing brown shirts. Pricks
Did alcohol prompt that, or are you always an idiot?
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