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Old 3rd Apr 2017, 12:42   #81 (permalink)
 
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Know any underagers who drink smoke cigarettes?
If you believe alcohol and tobacco are harmless fun, you're deluded....
Kind of a triple standard there.
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Old 3rd Apr 2017, 13:30   #82 (permalink)
 
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evansb, I still feel the title of this thread should have been in quotation marks.


As it stands, your position is made clear in the stated proposition. Surely you were hoping for arguments from both sides, without revealing your own cards too early on!?!?
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Old 4th Apr 2017, 04:06   #83 (permalink)
 
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For anyone who does not believe that marijuana is addictive there is research that shows the opposite. This is not someones pet internet site, but a site that publishes high-quality peer-reviewed research. MMS: Error




And a study on the effects of marijuana 24 hours after smoking. Note: this was from 2006 :
From the American Journal of Psychiatry http://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/doi/...jp.142.11.1325
Ten experienced licensed private pilots were trained for 8 hours on a flight simulator landing task. They each smoked a cigarette containing 19 mg of delta 9-tetrahydrocannabinol (THC), and 24 hours later their mean performance on the flight task showed trends toward impairment on all variables, with significant impairment in number and size of aileron changes, size of elevator changes, distance off center on landing, and vertical and lateral deviation on approach to landing. Despite these deficits, the pilots reported no awareness of impaired performance. These results may have implications for performance of complex tasks the day after smoking marijuana.

If you would like to do your own research read the articles sourced here - https://scholar.google.com.au/schola...CODV0QgQMIIjAA - the peer-reviewed papers published by reputable organisations like the Harvard Medical School, for example, and not ones like Is Weed Good For You? 20 Health Benefits Of Consuming Marijuana
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Old 4th Apr 2017, 05:10   #84 (permalink)
 
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Meadowrun

"Know any underagers who drink smoke cigarettes?
If you believe alcohol and tobacco are harmless fun, you're deluded....
Kind of a triple standard there."

That's just a bullshit response. I never said alcohol and tobacco are harmless. Upgrade your glasses and reread my post..
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Old 4th Apr 2017, 05:51   #85 (permalink)
 
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via david1300: ""Ten experienced licensed private pilots were trained for 8 hours on a flight simulator landing task. They each smoked a cigarette containing 19 mg of delta 9-tetrahydrocannabinol (THC), and 24 hours later their mean performance on the flight task showed trends toward impairment on all variables, with significant impairment in number and size of aileron changes, size of elevator changes, distance off center on landing, and vertical and lateral deviation on approach to landing. Despite these deficits, the pilots reported no awareness of impaired performance. These results may have implications for performance of complex tasks the day after smoking marijuana.""
Whilst The concept of 'peer review' is fairly well discredited now-a-days, the observations made in the referenced study would likely be the same as most peoples real life observations of the average dope smoker.






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Old 4th Apr 2017, 07:49   #86 (permalink)
 
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Originally Posted by Flying Binghi View Post
Whilst The concept of 'peer review' is fairly well discredited now-a-days, the observations made in the referenced study would likely be the same as most peoples real life observations of the average dope smoker.
I agree that we can debate the value of peer review, and many would dismiss your un-referenced observation as just your own thought . However at least the academic papers are based on well-described processes that can be repeated and the process and results tested for validity.

Which is more than can be said for the random anecdotes in the thread that go along the lines of "I have been ..." or "I know someone who..."

But whats with making your post take up more space by having a white fullstop about 10 lines below your post? Do you feel more important taking up more space
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Old 4th Apr 2017, 07:57   #87 (permalink)


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Cigarettes and alcohol are both legal, as we all know.
So why is there a huge black market in both?
Not just a market, but a fair proportion of it is fake to the extent some of the alcohol will kill you.
The market is there because of a. cost, legal access is expensive, fake and imported can be supplied for a great deal less, but at huge profit to the suppliers. B. supply to those under age.


So now translate that to this 'eutopic' future where you can pop into WH Smiths (UK seller of tobacco) and buy yourself a couple of exotic turbo cabbage fags and a couple of grams of heroine. Cost including tax and VAT? God knows but cheap it's not going to be. Safe? (Well, in the context of it won't be of silly strength, or mixed with talc, but in medicial/metal terms????)

Meanwhile on the corner of Acacia Avenue and the High Street lurks Mr GCSE in chemistry who is selling not only to the under 18's, but also to anyone who doesn't have the massive amount of cash needed to buy from legal sources. Oh and his product has so much more kick.....


In spite of what some think, the drugs supply chain is not going to go away if this rubbish is legalized, they just adapt. Suddenly your more mature clients go legit? Simply supply to the school gates, or increase the wattage of your product, more bang for buck and cheaper? Welcome back customers. You are back in square 1.

Yep, there's an argument that what we are doing isn't working. Working? Define that....? Its having the lid kept on it, to an extent. But legalize it, and you'd better have a really good plan to deal with the consequences.
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Old 4th Apr 2017, 11:40   #88 (permalink)
 
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I never said alcohol and tobacco are harmless
Point was that ignorants will do anything to escape - huffing gasoline and spray paint from paper bags, stealing parents prescriptions etc. Weed is one of the less damaging little escapes.


Quote:
So why is there a huge black market in both?

Taxes and duties.
In the 1700's there was a 129% tariff on tea.
People bought from smugglers.
Want a nice cuppa? - you're a crim.


Time to get real and grow out of the prohibition attitudes. News is - It Didn't Work!
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Old 4th Apr 2017, 11:40   #89 (permalink)
 
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Via david1300: ...whats with making your post take up more space by having a white fullstop about 10 lines below your post? Do you feel more important taking up more space.
Just a quirk of mine. Being out standing in me field most days gives me a need for space. Lotta country people have that... if i can touch yer with an outstretched arm yer standing to close..

Lets try a 10 line space.....









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Old 4th Apr 2017, 12:00   #90 (permalink)
 
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As to peer review...

"...In the past few years more professionals have come forward to share a truth that, for many people, proves difficult to swallow. One such authority is Dr. Richard Horton, the current editor-in-chief of the Lancet – considered to be one of the most well respected peer-reviewed medical journals in the world.

Dr. Horton recently published a statement declaring that a lot of published research is in fact unreliable at best, if not completely false.

“The case against science is straightforward: much of the scientific literature, perhaps half, may simply be untrue. Afflicted by studies with small sample sizes, tiny effects, invalid exploratory analyses, and flagrant conflicts of interest, together with an obsession for pursuing fashionable trends of dubious importance, science has taken a turn towards darkness.”...

...It’s common for many to dismiss a lot of great work by experts and researchers at various institutions around the globe which isn’t “peer-reviewed” and doesn’t appear in a “credible” medical journal, but as we can see, “peer-reviewed” doesn’t really mean much anymore...

...Dr. Marcia Angell, a physician and longtime Editor in Chief of the New England Medical Journal, which is considered to another one of the most prestigious peer-reviewed medical journals in the world, makes her view of the subject quite plain:

“It is simply no longer possible to believe much of the clinical research that is published, or to rely on the judgment of trusted physicians or authoritative medical guidelines..."


Editor In Chief Of World?s Best Known Medical Journal: Half Of All The Literature Is False ? Collective Evolution





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Old 4th Apr 2017, 12:07   #91 (permalink)


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"Time to get real and grow out of the prohibition attitudes. News is - It Didn't Work!"

What do you mean by "It didn't work"?

It depends on what your point of view is, and it depends on the aim. Speed control on roads doesn't work.....if you apply some principles. So should we remove them all, and let people do 90 down residential streets?

"Taxes and duties.
In the 1700's there was a 129% tariff on tea.
People bought from smugglers.
Want a nice cuppa? - you're a crim."

Correct thats why there's a black market. So are you suggesting there should be no tax on legally sold drugs? Of course there will be, and therefore the current suppliers will continue to exist, and nothing changes. These are people making a great deal of money on the deal, they don't want to loose that, and they certainly are not going to go legit!

They will undercut and find younger markets just as they do now with tobacco and nicotine and leave society with a host of problems, some new, mostly those that exist now.
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Old 4th Apr 2017, 12:35   #92 (permalink)
 
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FB - noted and thank you. My personal gripe with the 'Clinical Studies' and 'Peer Review' systems are the non reporting of 'inconvenient' results - ones that fail to prove the point trying to be made.

But until something better is proven they are arguably the best we have right now.
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Old 4th Apr 2017, 20:23   #93 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
let people do 90 down residential streets?

No. Some things in life are plainly dangerous. Like heroin and meth and fentanyl. Like drinking anti-freeze. Common sense isn't.


Tax marijuana, yes. But not to an excess. Otherwise you do have a continued proliferation of the black market. They eventually reduced the tariff on tea and the black market disappeared. Remove the profit and there is no business. Just handle it like alcohol. The model is already in place. Just get on with it and stop the manufactured horror stories, it's just silly.
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Old 5th Apr 2017, 08:11   #94 (permalink)
 
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Originally Posted by david1300 View Post
FB - noted and thank you. My personal gripe with the 'Clinical Studies' and 'Peer Review' systems are the non reporting of 'inconvenient' results - ones that fail to prove the point trying to be made.

But until something better is proven they are arguably the best we have right now.
As a former scientist, who worked within Government for much of my career, I can say with a fair degree of certainty that a great deal of the published work from the last 20 to 30 years is likely to be flawed, especially if the underlying research was sponsored by a large company or what amounts to a lobby group (and some charities fall into this category).

The peer review process within many of the lesser-known journals is suspect, and even some undertaken by the handful of world renowned journals is not as robust as it used to be. One problem is that it has become increasingly difficult to find subject matter experts that are sufficiently competent and impartial to review papers in the depth that is required to be reasonably confident that the published data are accurate.

The misuse of statistics is rife, with outlying results that don't fit either the researcher's pre-conceptions, or the requirements of the research sponsor, often being left out of the published data set. Medical research studies, in particular, seem to suffer from this to a greater extent than some other areas of scientific endeavour, perhaps because there are such large vested interests within this field.
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Old 5th May 2017, 02:53   #95 (permalink)
 
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Try and tell these 8 children that marijuana is not a problem. Oh, sorry, you can't because they are dead

When Cairns mother Raina Thaiday killed eight children in 2014 she had been clean of cannabis for months, but a psychiatrist found her prior long-term use may have triggered the violent schizophrenic episode.

There is a widely held view within the medical and social work community in Australia that there is a link between extended use of cannabis and psychosis.

While most research is careful not to draw causal links, a study by the University of Queensland that followed more than 3,800 21-year-olds for almost three decades revealed individuals who used cannabis for six or more years had a greater risk of developing psychotic disorders or symptoms like hallucinations and delusions.

The same document outlined how smoking cannabis at a younger age more than three times a week could increase an individual's risk for schizophrenia up to six times.

Cairns children killings: Does extended cannabis use play a role in psychosis? - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)
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Old 5th May 2017, 03:12   #96 (permalink)
 
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Several studies have linked marijuana use to increased risk for psychiatric disorders, including psychosis (schizophrenia), depression, anxiety, and substance use disorders, but whether and to what extent it actually causes these conditions is not always easy to determine.32 The amount of drug used, the age at first use, and genetic vulnerability have all been shown to influence this relationship. The strongest evidence to date concerns links between marijuana use and substance use disorders and between marijuana use and psychiatric disorders in those with a preexisting genetic or other vulnerability

There are always risks with anything. Thousands of years of usage have gone by without major, repeated, widespread episodes of psychosis


Meanwhile 44 people died in April 2017 in Vancouver from opioid overdoses. You'll get arrested here for possession of pot but not with heroin or adulterated heroin. Everyone is running around in circles to help them use it safely and get them into far and few between rehabilitation programs. not really much point given the recidivism rates. (many stories about people being revived with Narcan only to wake up and ask if they can go now? They have to get some more drugs. Fire rescue crews are spending more time with addicts than at actual fires. Often they are unable to respond to fires due to being already occupied down some alley.


Given these real problems, the relatively recent historical furor over a plant is getting laughable.
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Old 5th May 2017, 09:02   #97 (permalink)
 
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via meadowrun: ...Thousands of years of usage have gone by without major, repeated, widespread episodes of psychosis...
"usage"... yes, though by who ?

Go back a hundred or so years ago and try working in a Victorian era factory whilst stoned and see how long yer stay alive. Try the subsistence farming that were the lot of many only a hundred odd years ago and see how much food yer can put in the larder for winter when yer stoned... So back then those 'common people' who took a daily toke probably didn't survive long enough to become psychotic. And those dopers that did survive were likely amongst the street crazys and Bedlam residents that people like Dickens wrote of in passing.




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Old 5th May 2017, 15:43   #98 (permalink)
 
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And yet gin was so, so popular.
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Old 5th May 2017, 22:42   #99 (permalink)
 
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Originally Posted by Smiffy36 View Post
Yep, there's an argument that what we are doing isn't working. Working? Define that....? Its having the lid kept on it, to an extent. But legalize it, and you'd better have a really good plan to deal with the consequences.
Legalise guns and go back to enclaves where you live your life the way you want and your boundarys at 20ft tall are clear.

Take about 10 years but Darwins law will take care of most people in that time.

Also no NHS support for users.
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Old 6th May 2017, 01:18   #100 (permalink)
 
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via meadowrun: And yet gin was so, so popular.
...and more. Whilst doing a Bange search i found this from 1843...

14 Apr 1843 - HISTORY OF INTOXICATING LIQUORS. - Trove
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