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Old 31st Oct 2016, 08:04   #61 (permalink)
 
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Originally Posted by Guptar View Post
I read this thread with a mix of amusement and despair. It seems that all the posters to date have, at best no clue as to what they are talking about, or worst, apologists for the drug culture that has invaded mankind.

I speak from family experience and a close relative who is a geneticist.

Firstly, medicinal Cannabis.

There are some 750 different compounds in the pot family. Only one gets you "high". Medicinal Cannabis does not have the compound that gets you high. Drug fans often tout a joint as medicine. That is only a way they try to make pot "ok" as a social norm.

That one compound that gets you high is a Geno Toxin. It causes DNA to change. The user probably wont see its effects, but 7 generations down the line we will see an explosion of birth defects. Damaged DNA replicates, getting more damaged with each generation.

Chronic use of pot fries your brain. My partners ex who is 48 has the memory of a 80 year old. My 21 y/o step son is already showing signs of early onset dementia. He has been a chronic pot user for 6 years.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmedh...n-generations/

Studies are being released, of course they will be attacked, funnily enough, the most unlikely people are pot users. Guess who attacks the validity of the reports.

Chronic abuse of pot has a disastrous effect on the mental health of some people. Friends who work in Mental Health in Denver tell me there has been an explosion in their workload since pot was legalized.

Anyone who thinks pot is harmless is just kidding themselves and gambling that their grandchildrens grandshildren won't be born with 3 legs.
That's a very disparaging view of many of is, and as a scientist I take it as an insult to my intelligence and integrity.

I agree that there are many compounds in marijuana, and only some have a beneficial effect when treating some diseases. My friends wife with MS does have a very significant reduction in tremors with small oral marijuana intake, so much so that she can get some sleep at night. Previously a wide range of conventional drugs had been tried that were ineffective. Others with MS have had very similar findings, so it seems clear that one, or some, of the many compounds within marijuana are beneficial in treating the symptoms of this disease.

Others have found that they get pain relief from using marijuana that they cannot get from other drugs, or at least not without unpleasant side effects, such as the effect of opiates on the bowel and transit rate, which for many who are already of limited mobility can cause obstructive constipation.

You've used some wide-ranging terms with open and unqualified definitions, such as "chronic abuse of pot has a disastrous effect on the mental health of some people". That simple isn't true for natural strains of marijuana that were around before the illegal growers started selectively breeding female plants for very high levels of certain compounds. Chronic marijuana use is common in some countries, and has been for hundreds of years, yet there is, apparently, no greater incidence of mental health issues there, nor any evidence at all that marijuana use causes genetic defects, than elsewhere.

When I was 15, in the Senior Scouts (as they were called then) we went on an overland expedition across Spain to Morocco and up into the Atlas mountains. Our Moroccan guide smoked marijuana during every rest break, much to our amusement as kids. It was very common to see the locals sit down and smoke a bit of weed, in much the same way as we'd have stopped for a cigarette (except our Leader wouldn't let us smoke as we were were too young..........).

I would certainly agree that many of the selectively bred female strains are potentially harmful, but they have come about because an illegal market has wanted to push stronger (and far more expensive) drugs to their marketplace.

Back in the late 60's and through the 70's, when I was a regular marijuana user, I heard of no one, not a single person, ever having adverse effects from the strains of marijuana that were available then. We used to joke at the time that the most harmful stuff in a joint was the tobacco, and it was me giving up smoking that led to me stopping the use of marijuana, solely because of the harmful effects of tobacco.

We didn't start to hear about people having wild delusions or mental health issues from marijuana use then at all, but we did around 20 years later, when the really potent strains that had been selectively bred started to hit the streets.

My view has always been that things taken in moderation are generally OK, and that problems arise when things are taken in excess. In the case of marijuana, the naturally occurring strains that were commonly available until around 1990 were proven, by multiple double blind trials, to have no significant harmful effects. That view is supported by millions of users globally, with use going back hundreds of years.

Equally, I'm certain that has changed with the massive increase in potency that has occurred with selectively bred plants, and there is certainly anecdotal evidence that these strains may be harmful if taken for prolonged periods.
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Old 31st Oct 2016, 08:16   #62 (permalink)
 
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I apologize if I wasn't clear regarding medicinal cannabis, the non get high compounds are are becoming increasingly accepted as legitimate and effective therapies in the medical community.

But I stand behind my remarks on mental health and pot smokers. I have seen it first hand and the evidence from Denver alone is inarguable.
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Old 31st Oct 2016, 08:50   #63 (permalink)
 
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Originally Posted by Guptar View Post
I apologize if I wasn't clear regarding medicinal cannabis, the non get high compounds are are becoming increasingly accepted as legitimate and effective therapies in the medical community.

But I stand behind my remarks on mental health and pot smokers. I have seen it first hand and the evidence from Denver alone is inarguable.
Again you're being very general, and condemning a whole raft of different drugs as if they were all the same.

I have no idea how many strains of marijuana there are today; certainly hundreds more than there were in my youth. Back then we either had Afghan or Moroccan as generic types, with no clear evidence as to where any of it had come from. What we did know for sure was that this was the same stuff that had been used for hundreds of years, and had been shown to be relatively harmless.

At that time, the lawmakers were intent on trying to prove, in the face of very strong arguments from the pro-marijuana lobby, that it was harmful. Governments poured millions into trials, yet could find no conclusive evidence at all (then) that marijuana was harmful, or had long-term effects on mental health.

Your remarks need to be heavily qualified to have some degree of truth. There is evidence that some, selectively-bred, strains of marijuana can cause short and long term health effects. However, it's clear that it's the abuse of these very strong strains that is the problem, not the naturally occurring plant that's been grown and smoked for centuries.

It's a bit like alcohol. Most of us could get away with drinking a handful of glasses of wine a week for life, with no ill effect at all. However, if we drank a handful of bottles of Spirytus Rektyfikowany (a strong Polish vodka) a week we would probably be in a mental institution within weeks and dead a few months after that.
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Old 31st Oct 2016, 11:45   #64 (permalink)
 
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Research into marajuana's medical benefits is prohibited just about everywhere. Why? Because possession is a crime, just about everywhere.
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Old 31st Oct 2016, 13:28   #65 (permalink)
 
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Anyone who thinks pot is harmless is just kidding themselves
Au contraie Guptar

Unusually for a JB thread this has had decent amount on input where it hasn't gone off on a complete tangent discussing Aliens or Brexit by the end of Page 1.

There are people on here who will be regular users, ex users, soon to be users and boring gits like me and others who will never be users.

I have lost count of number of people I or my friends and contemporaries have known who have committed suicide. A significant enough proportion of whom I knew had used or abused illicit substances in the past.

I don't know if that was connected, my own opinion is yes but can't prove it.

Lighten up..................... that's lighten up, not light up.
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Old 1st Nov 2016, 05:40   #66 (permalink)
 
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I am unable to get my head around the fact, drugs are not legalized. Too many vested interests in keeping it illegal. Of this I am sure.

If they want drugs they are going to get them. The police will never stop it, as they wont stop prostitution.

Legalize it, then it would be under some sort of control, the criminal element would be eliminated and the government would get the tax.

I read somewhere that half of police time is used chasing drug related crime.

Legalizing the stuff would be a win win for us all. Of I forgot to mention it would top up the gene pool. If they want to blow their heads off on drugs, let them (preferably before they breed) as we have too many people anyway. Natural selection I call it.

Last edited by Dan_Brown; 1st Nov 2016 at 09:05.
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Old 1st Apr 2017, 00:22   #67 (permalink)
 
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Originally Posted by vapilot2004 View Post
It has always been considered a gateway drug.
Always... since the 80s... 1980s. Or the 1930s if you really want to stretch it.

That is not always.
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Old 1st Apr 2017, 01:39   #68 (permalink)
 
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"Marijuana is not a problem. Why do most of the world's nation states insist it is?"

I strongly disagree and think that's a simplistic, naive statement...

Smoking dope was common when I was at university 30 odd years ago. None of my friends as far as I know went on to stronger drugs as a result.
Of the say dozen of us;

nowadays perhaps 3 of them enjoy the occasional joint, the rest?

1 chronic smoker has lost the plot completely, fixated with conspiracy stories (911 didn't happen, chemtrails, moon landings didn't happen etc). Impossible to have a sane conversation with him.

1 Chronic smoker started hearing voices. The TV was telling him he was responsible for the the Gulf War etc. His close friends got him back to the family sheep farm where he spent 3 years off the dope helping his Dad run the farm. He made a full recovery and 15 years later has a great career, family etc.

I stopped smoking the stuff 30 years ago because every time I got stoned I became incredibly depressed.

One of best friends is completely addicted to the stuff. Smokes vast quantities each day after work. He wants to give it up, has done so for years but is psychologically addicted and also addicted to the tobacco his mixes it with. He also has conspiracy theory tendancies. His lungs are absolutely f&*ked. His hacking, lengthy, violent coughs bring me to tears..

So when people tell me dope is harmless, I know it's bullshit, I've seen what it can and has done to close friends...

Note: I'm referring to smoking the stuff, medicinal Marijuana I know nothing about and may well be beneficial to sick people....
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Old 1st Apr 2017, 02:03   #69 (permalink)
 
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Smoking tobacco killed both my father and grandfather at 51.
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Old 1st Apr 2017, 03:38   #70 (permalink)
 
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Excess in anything will likely cause problems. We are not hearing horror stories from states that have legalized use as this country creeps towards legalization (Jul18). Taking bloody forever even tho' there is a long established protocol for dispensing alcohol to all and sundry. Meanwhile alcohol continues to severely impact the population in various manners and tobacco is still legal. It's life, you take your chances. The end is always the same.
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Old 1st Apr 2017, 06:52   #71 (permalink)
 
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Tobacco killed my father. Alcohol killed my aunt.

Legalising means lovely tax revenue and less wasted police time chasing minor offences freeing up time to catch the killers and burglars.
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Old 1st Apr 2017, 10:15   #72 (permalink)
 
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As many as nine out of ten theft and burglary offences can be directly linked to illegal drug use and the need to finance the habit. Just a minor consequence? Well the 50 million of cocaine washed up on the beaches of Norfolk would have all had to be paid for somehow and the majority of that money would have come from the proceeds of crime. That amount probably represents a day or so supply for a city like London. So there are incredible amounts of money being siphoned out of the economy due to illegal drug use. Everybody ends up paying either due to personal loss or damage to property or through higher insurance premiums and the overall fear of becoming a victim of crime.

Marijuana is extremely harmful, even more so than tobacco due to a complete lack of quality control and the tendency to smoke it without filters. Marijuana mixed with tobacco is inhaled deeply by users to get the best hit. That carries cancer forming chemicals deeper into the lungs where they are more likely to cause disease.

Then there are the mental issues caused by drug abuse. Even a few weeks of marijuana use causes clearly detectable mental and personality changes in users.

Marijuana is the gateway drug to even more harmful and addictive substances. Nobody wakes up one morning and thinks that they will start out by injecting heroin. It is a progressive condition that starts with experimenting with 'mild' drugs. That alone is reason enough to keep marijuana on the banned list.
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Old 1st Apr 2017, 10:30   #73 (permalink)
 
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Originally Posted by G0ULI View Post
As many as nine out of ten theft and burglary offences can be directly linked to illegal drug use and the need to finance the habit. Just a minor consequence? Well the 50 million of cocaine washed up on the beaches of Norfolk would have all had to be paid for somehow and the majority of that money would have come from the proceeds of crime. That amount probably represents a day or so supply for a city like London. So there are incredible amounts of money being siphoned out of the economy due to illegal drug use. Everybody ends up paying either due to personal loss or damage to property or through higher insurance premiums and the overall fear of becoming a victim of crime.

Marijuana is extremely harmful, even more so than tobacco due to a complete lack of quality control and the tendency to smoke it without filters. Marijuana mixed with tobacco is inhaled deeply by users to get the best hit. That carries cancer forming chemicals deeper into the lungs where they are more likely to cause disease.

Then there are the mental issues caused by drug abuse. Even a few weeks of marijuana use causes clearly detectable mental and personality changes in users.

Marijuana is the gateway drug to even more harmful and addictive substances. Nobody wakes up one morning and thinks that they will start out by injecting heroin. It is a progressive condition that starts with experimenting with 'mild' drugs. That alone is reason enough to keep marijuana on the banned list.
I was a regular marijuana user for around 20 years. Never, not once, was I tempted to buy something more dangerous. It's like saying smoking is a gateway to alcohol abuse, just patent nonsense.

Illegality IS a gateway to many other illegal substances, without a doubt. The same dealers that are selling marijuana are also selling, and promoting, a wide range of drugs. Make marijuana legal and that problem goes away, along with the crime that's associated with it.

The health risks have been done to death earlier in this thread. Suffice to say that there is zero evidence that the original, native marijuana that has been around for centuries, and which I smoked for years, has any harmful effects. The same is not true of the stuff that's been selectively bred by illegal drug dealers.
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Old 2nd Apr 2017, 05:42   #74 (permalink)
 
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Tobacco killed my father. Alcohol killed my aunt.
And irresponsible consumption of food will kill you just as quick, from obesity to anorexia. Hell of a world we live in ain't it? So many ways to kill ones self.
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Old 2nd Apr 2017, 11:31   #75 (permalink)
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In the mid eighties the medical insurance company that provided our free, (to us), insurance cover insisted that we attend a seminar once a year where their doctors could bang home their various messages. The two that I remember very clearly are: 1). If you can't remember the last day when you didn't have a drink you are not necessarily alcoholic but may well be becoming alcohol dependent and 2). A modest amount of Marijuana will do considerably more brain damage than a modest amount of alcohol.
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Old 2nd Apr 2017, 18:08   #76 (permalink)
 
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I don't care what people smoke , inject, drink or snort. Legalise the lot, tax it, sell it in small quantities and as mentioned, none of the looney stuff.
My biggest concerns with weed are that it affects young people mentally far more than mature adults..
We have a situation where middle aged people are taking cocaine with their furred up arteries and dodgy tickers, and youth are wrecking their developing minds by being monged out on weed. The drugs should be the other way round ..

Also with teenagers it's pretty tough to get them up and about and involved in what most people agree are healthy teen pursuits, team sports, clubs , racing karts, gliding, hiking. Blah blah blah .. when they are smacked up,on weed they are even more useless than usual
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Old 2nd Apr 2017, 18:09   #77 (permalink)
 
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Oh yes and the stuff stinks
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Old 2nd Apr 2017, 20:50   #78 (permalink)
 
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as per the last post...


personally, and not caring a toss regarding "benefits" or otherwise, I cannot stand dopeheads and their "so cool" habits.


here's a newsflash...IT SMELLS LIKE DOGSHIT..and so do dopeheads.


also, just try living on a street where a house has a ahem, "grow on".


every time said "grow" is ready for harvest, you can smell the godawful stuff streets away...I know.
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Old 2nd Apr 2017, 23:49   #79 (permalink)
 
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Originally Posted by Andy_S View Post
What about the mental health problems caused by regular use of the more potent strains of marijuana? Not only do they actually cause harm to the user, but the rest of us have to pick up the tab for their care.
If you can link to some case studies that show regular users using ONLY marijuana, ie not in combination with alcohol or other drugs have a higher incidence of needing more than average mental medical care, I'd love to see them.

Bear in mind that some of the folks who reach for the most potent dope are already self medicating to get over or around something in their lives.
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Old 3rd Apr 2017, 07:23   #80 (permalink)
 
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How the hell are 13, 14, 15 year old kids supposed to succeed at school and beyond in their lives if they're smoking dope already? Sadly I know of kids doing this regularly and one lives where I do right now. He's a waste of space stoned gamer and sadly I believe his outlook is bleak.
If you believe dope is harmless fun you're deluded.....
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