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Old 10th Aug 2016, 11:40   #1 (permalink)
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Brexit: The telephone box hampsterwheel

Now the VOTES ARE ALL COUNTED..and being a Democratic Country
My personal opinion is that Great Britain joined a Common Market, for which some people voted for and others against..but we joined, we can all throw problems that arose but basically it served a purpose and allowed the Common Market to get stronger... along the way some things improved others didn't but we all carried on....
However many people started to see EU decisions happening but also realised if they were not liked..well then you needed/had to put up with it, various Prime Ministers led us deeper and deeper into what became the European Union to the point where the last PM was so peeed of at the carpers, he rashly promised a referendum on " IN or OUT" of the EU, IMO the right answer came forth from that referendum.

But we now find a sort of Limbo Land where the powers that be, have had to admit they were not expecting the common herd to vote OUT..in fact it came as such a shock the then PM and his Cabel of school chums who ran the GB Ltd didn't have a clue what to do, so like all beaten schoolboys they ran orf in all different directions, leaving the new arrangement to the "new people" who stepped in willingly or not to sort out the matters of State that seemed to be rudderless, and indeed we have some new to the Diplomatic core, men and women who seem to be unable to grasp the nettle as to what needs to be done..! in fact it still seem to me that the unelected heads of the EU are actually trying to "Bully the UK into some quick agreement" so they can carry on with the EU business without much worry about other states copying the example of "people power" over non elected heads of the EU... !

Shouldn't the UK start by saying/asking how much trade do the EU states want to do with us(the UK)... take for example Mercedes Benz, BMW,VW, Scania, they supply billions of Euro/£ sterling per month into the UK, using that as a starting point, then look at Beer and Alcohol product and food product, steel/Aluminium, Glass,Paper, wood, clothes, Food, Luxury Goods. it seems, if that market( the UK) was lost to the EU it would be them who would be looking down the barrel of a gun, for those markets mentioned if lost to the EU would bust some of the companies thus involved.......

Or is it not that simple...?

Last edited by Peter-RB; 9th Dec 2016 at 09:34. Reason: To try and add to the Thread Title..but cannot!
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Old 10th Aug 2016, 12:28   #2 (permalink)
 
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As far as organizing the unknown territory of Exit - even for newbies thrown into it - it is like any problem - one step at a time. In other words - develop procedural checklists and then check off tasks accomplished/monitor results.


The government should be focused on the political disengagement from the unwanted EU diktats, maintaining beneficial diplomatic ties and keep at arms length from the business of business (the minutiae) other than working with business to develop trade agreements.


Let business (for the most part) sort out what is produced, what is for sale/exported and what is to be bought/imported.
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Old 10th Aug 2016, 12:35   #3 (permalink)
 
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Meadowrun, good post and agree, hopefully we will see the new government move forward and exit in a calm stately manner to the benefit of this country and Europe through continuing trade without being fixated on the 'free trade deal' that apparently comes with continued 'free movement'.
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Old 10th Aug 2016, 13:36   #4 (permalink)
 
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As far as organizing the unknown territory of Exit - even for newbies thrown into it - it is like any problem - one step at a time. In other words - develop procedural checklists and then check off tasks accomplished/monitor results.
Absolutely incorrect. What it SHOULD be is: break it down into a series of steps, work out the ramifications and costs of each step and only THEN decide whether or not to go ahead with the process.

As was pointed out in the original post it appears that the decisions was made before any of the ramifications or costs were worked out with the result that the proponents when faced with the referendum response (not vote) had absolutely no idea what to do.
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Old 10th Aug 2016, 14:08   #5 (permalink)
 
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I tend to agree with Sue this vote was Infact a protest vote against the EU and not so much a vote to leave the EU
The questions in or out did not satisfy the large grey areas between and many thought remain was a certainty so why not a protest ?
Sadly a Brexit is not planned for and many are running around like headless chickens
There is a court case in October December on whether the government can instigate art 50 without a vote in parliament
If the government are so convinced that will be passed why the court case ?
The EU needs massive reform before it becomes acceptable to the UKs interest
A Brexit has plus but many minus too so we are politically stuck with two unnacceptable options either which could have disasterous results for the UK

Uncontrolled immigration was the major factor of discontentment and TM won't give a projected reduction! Again indicating no plans no immigration policy

With 1 million illegal immigrants in the UK ( our fault ) where from here
With as reported at Reuters a cover up of the Syrian problem with a 15% increase in movement neither option looks great ((

Damned if you do damned if you don't
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Old 10th Aug 2016, 14:19   #6 (permalink)
 
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A Brexit has plus but many minus too so we are politically stuck with two unnacceptable options either which could have disasterous results for the UK

Well, fact is the vote has been taken. A decision has been made. Time to stop moaning about how woe is me, stop twiddling thumbs and get weaving.
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Old 10th Aug 2016, 15:18   #7 (permalink)
 
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A decision has been made.
Based upon lies an deceit. If this were a court case it'd go to a retrial.
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Old 10th Aug 2016, 15:41   #8 (permalink)
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Based upon lies an deceit.
Would have been the same if the result had gone the other way.
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Old 10th Aug 2016, 15:57   #9 (permalink)
 
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Do we really need another thread on this topic?
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Old 10th Aug 2016, 16:05   #10 (permalink)
 
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It actually wasn't a vote, it was a referendum and therefore not binding. Given the subsequent reactions of many of the people who referendumed to leave (including the organisers) perhaps the entire business should be simply shoved off to the side and forgotten.


And if immigration was really the issue, immigration from where and whom? European citizens, non Europeans who had made it into Europe but shouldn't have been there, or perhaps people from former British colonies? Those are three very different categories.

I also don't understand this statement:
Quote:
exit in a calm stately manner to the benefit of this country
We could perhaps control how calmly anything is done, but will end up getting whatever is negotiated by all parties. To say otherwise is like saying I'll quit my job but I'm not worried because I'll still get half my paycheck. That would be nice, but I'll actually get whatever severance I can negotiate with my former employer and I don't think anyone would expect otherwise regardless of what ever brave face I put on it.
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Old 10th Aug 2016, 16:12   #11 (permalink)
 
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the brexit vote seemed to have been swayed by the immigration issue, the argument was that being in the EU forced us to accept imigrants without question.
What people did not understand was that the UK was not a signatory to the EU freedom of borders agreement therefore we had control of our borders anyway.
However the 'other' thread has degenerated into an exchange of personal abuse between a small number of ppruners and maybe there is a need for more adult discussion.
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Old 10th Aug 2016, 16:34   #12 (permalink)
 
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Hi Sue Vetements. Maybe you would of understood it better if you had read/quoted the whole of the sentence:
Quote:
hopefully we will see the new government move forward and exit in a calm stately manner to the benefit of this country and Europe through continuing trade without being fixated on the 'free trade deal' that apparently comes with continued 'free movement'
and if you would still like me to explain better what I was trying to convey in the quote then I will consider whether it would be of any benefit to try, although if my views are opposite to your's then it is not likely.

Funfly, whilst I admire your conviction with regard to;
Quote:
However the 'other' thread has degenerated into an exchange of personal abuse between a small number of ppruners and maybe there is a need for more adult discussion.
, you could find that this one could go the same way eventually, especially considering the comment already posted;
Quote:
Based upon lies an deceit. If this were a court case it'd go to a retrial.
, just a thought that's all.
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Old 10th Aug 2016, 16:41   #13 (permalink)
 
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just a thought that's all.
Thanks. for. that.

Some of the statistics regarding who voted for what in the EU Ref make very interesting reading.
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Old 10th Aug 2016, 16:49   #14 (permalink)
 
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Nemrytter: Your welcome, and agree with your quote up to a point as you know what they say about statistics, they can be made to prove anyone's point even if they are correct in the first place, even if they are not reasoned debate could still be feasible.
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Old 10th Aug 2016, 16:58   #15 (permalink)
 
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We can try. I'm definitely up for keeping threads civil regardless of any divergence of opinion. I try, but probably don't always succeed.

I recognise the use of the word 'hopefully' in that quote and I would hope so too. The point I would make is that it's a hope that is reliant also on other parties so the final result is far from a foregone conclusion.

I'm not 100% sure of your definition of 'free movement'. It could mean either 'legal' EU residents moving to Britain or 'illegal' residents doing the same thing. The two are quite different and I suspect the latter is up to Britain to be solved rather than Britain required to go along with. Plus as has been pointed out earlier I had to show my passport on the Eurostar, so AFAIK the British border is not as permeable as other European borders for the movements of people ... but others could probably explain that better.

The third category was citizens from former, or if we still have any, current colonies. I expect that sort of immigration is a completely different discussion.

In summation, I'm afraid I look at this from an American perspective now and the thought that I can get a job in Oregon, California, Colorado, Maine or Florida and simply move and take up that job is a flexibility I cannot imagine living without. I understand Europe is historically different, but l'm not sure that's a reason to deter the ability to easily move between vountries.
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Old 10th Aug 2016, 17:09   #16 (permalink)
 
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Originally Posted by ExXB View Post
Do we really need another thread on this topic?
Particularly as, so far, we have basically the same people making the same points.
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Old 10th Aug 2016, 17:25   #17 (permalink)
 
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This was the most disgusting lead up to the referendum with lies turned out from both sides
Until the public were confused and didn't know what to believe from either side
I am sure in the end most voted on a gut instinct

Regarding freedom of movement and borders many where alarmed with the influx of 4 million Syrians with the knowledge that once residency was established freedom of movement would follow and we knew where too
People were alarmed at the government figures when they were shown to be false and realised the immigration level would be the size of a city a year
In some ways DC shot himself in the foot with the fear campaign and there was a backlash to that too
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Old 10th Aug 2016, 17:27   #18 (permalink)
 
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Sue, the big difference between free movement in the USA and Europe is that English is spoken and understood throughout the USA but this is very much not the case in Europe. One example is a job that advertised for an engineer to work in a refinery in Holland, understandably the ability to speak Dutch was a non negotiable requirement as the majority of the existing employees wouldn't be able to understand a non-Dutch speaker.

Given the above would be applicable in pretty much every position advertised in Europe, I feel the much vaunted freedom of movement within Europe is a moot point to a monolingual person regardless of their nationality.
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Old 10th Aug 2016, 17:34   #19 (permalink)
 
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In an attempt to offer an objective view (I have no dog in this fight):


It would seem more constructive to argue about the vote itself in the previous thread(s), where the routine casting of aspersions on motives, campaigns, voters, sales jobs and politicians is already well established.


I would suggest that, if one is worried about a merge or a lock or a deletion from the mods, Peter could perhaps edit the title of the thread and the discussion focus on "now that the vote's over how to get there from here?" (which will also have a variety of points and opinions). I think is what Peter may have meant with Pro and Con. (If wrong, I apologize to Peter for that).

I now withdraw as it's not my issue. Best wishes to all.
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Old 10th Aug 2016, 17:50   #20 (permalink)
 
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My vote to leave was not based on immigration but in the belief the EU had become an unelected nightmare and it was right to wrestle control of the U.K back so that we can plan our own destiny.

I agree with the free movement of EU people across borders, though I think Germany has created half of the problems and backlash the EU is facing by allowing 1 million refugees to enter the country and the EU unchecked or controlled. And although our government pointed out that the migrants would be controlled entering the UK, that " protectionism" dissapears the moment they are accepted, registered and become citizens in Germany, at that point the barriers come down. That is what lost it for them.

Unfortunately Europe is beginning to reap what it sowed by allowing this to happen in both sexual attacks and terrorism. As for the economic migrants from Africa, until you start collecting refugees off the seas and landing them from whence they came, more will come. The idea that picking them up off the seas closer to Libya etc simply means they will risk setting sail in even more dubious vessels, dropping them off on a beach back in Libya word will get around that spending xyz with people smugglers is wasted money as those landed tell their tale.

I just wish the press and every man and his dog would simply stop running Brexit and the UK's future down as it only serves to feed the negativeness of it all, we need positive stories that encourage investment not scare it away.

Last edited by NutLoose; 10th Aug 2016 at 18:06.
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