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Old 8th Oct 2017, 19:27   #19621 (permalink)

I'd rather be floating

 
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Originally Posted by EGLD View Post
Would you honestly describe the situation in Europe currently as "peace"?
There have been no wars between EU member states (give or take whether you count the behaviour of the French in the Falklands war). This is in marked contrast to the previous couple of millennia.
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Old 8th Oct 2017, 19:40   #19622 (permalink)
 
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Not that it matters, as Article 50 has been invoked

Parliament has given effect to the referendum and treated it as binding.
Some can argue it was not binding (yet again, yawn) but it is a bit late for that.
Notice has been given.

And personally i also treat the referendum result as the vote of the UK. If people are invited to vote but choose not to, they have actually also expressed their choice.
Sophistry if you will.
But as others here say....the UK has spoken.
Not that it matters if people disagree. I wont lose sleep.
Article 50 notice has been given as a result.
Remoaning here will not change that one iota.
You might get a tad stressed...i worry. But please stay calm.
Passports can be had in Ireland if you apply.
But hurry now. I suspect Ireland may wish to clamp down on too much non EU immigration soon as a result of the influx of UK remoaners.
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Old 8th Oct 2017, 19:40   #19623 (permalink)
 
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I don't have any legal quals.

There is the International Court of Justice I suppose.

But as the UK is a perm member of the Security council it has a veto on any of its rulings applying to it. And as such its a political entity with no way of enforcing its rulings.

An implied debt with no contract over a club membership....... good luck with it even touching that one.

And the EU treaties don't have a subject to ICJ jurisdiction clause in them to my knowledge. they are all linked to the ECJ dealing with disputes.

Quote:
Just plain wrong
I am afraid not which is why its a red line item by both sides.

EU has to keep the UK in other wise it has zero ability to enforce anything on the UK without resorting to armed conflict. Every single point/deal will be linked to the ECJ jurisdiction staying in play for the duration.

And the UK knows fine this which is the reason why its a red line refusal for it to be linked to it. Other wise EU membership and meddling is never ending.

Once we are out and the rope cut then its normal FTA procedures which don't involve the ECJ which I presume would then have a ICJ clause in them.

Quote:
dont think there is any argument about the UK paying what it owes up to it leaving
It will continue paying the normal amount up until the 29th of March or the day it notifys the transition period over. I wouldn't be surprised if they ended it early to be honest by a couple of months to escape any stupidity with the ECJ.

Its the made up numbers for projects which haven't spent there cash and the pension black hole and anything else they can think of that is going to keep them afloat until they sort themselves out.

Because like the UK government they are keeping their post exit no deal preparations in very close book conditions. There has been zero discussion how they are going to slash the budget to compensate for the UK leaving. Mainly because they know it would hand the UK ammunition and also cause an uproar when various fractions realise that there cash stream is going to dry up.

Last edited by tescoapp; 8th Oct 2017 at 19:51.
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Old 8th Oct 2017, 19:50   #19624 (permalink)
 
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Rob

I don't have a problem with FOM
The cancer of any immigration are pure benefit immigrants and we have more problem
With ex Eu
I would like to see more towards FOM to work with earned citizenship
But not a major problem with EU immigrants
Merkel opening the doors to millions of Syrians probably caused the brexit vote so I would support 10 years demonstrated residency in the EU for FOM
But we need these people from the lowest to the highest jobs

ECJ ? I really don't have a problem with that ! In someways it's a safeguard against extreme right or left rulings in the UK and keeps us honest

To your question on being part of a federal Europe ? It depends what you mean as the EU is made up of independent countries
They really need to restructure and operate tiers of membership

Choice between changing the EU from within or this awful brexit isolating ourselves and cutting away ?
If there was another vote and knowing what I know now my vote would be remain
Brexit hasn't brought what I hoped being very much on the mildest side
Sorry but I haven't seen any good from brexit
The EU maybe all the things you say but there is much more compassion for people and their rights

Go back to the UK of old ? First past the post 10 years conservative 10 years labour! Flip flopping ?
A beggar on the street had freedom it doesn't help him
We need the EU markets you will find that out

So yes given another vote ? Remain and be like the French refuse the rubbish
I hope that helps you understand where I stand now

I do think brexit has been very badly handled by this government
May don't know what to make of her
A career politician May comes first
She has zero imagination don't really think she even knows what she wants never mind the Conservatives
Not surprised we are where we are it's our fault not the EU

Frankly faced with no deal this government have no moral right to push brexit through at any cost because of their complete failure
It must go back to the people and if they still support that sort of exit do be it
Quote:
Because like the UK government they are keeping their post exit no deal preparations until very close book conditions. There has been zero discussion how they are going to slash the budget to compensate for the UK leaving. Mainly because they know it would hand the UK ammunition and also cause an uproar when various fractions realise that there cash stream is going to dry up.
Tesco App

Why do you think they are so laid back ? Unlike us they have a plan A B C
We cannot even cobble together plan A
It was Donald Trump who advised the EU to asset strip the UK
That is exactly what they will do in the event of no deal so their losses won't be great
Ours will be huge

Last edited by Pace; 8th Oct 2017 at 20:10.
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Old 8th Oct 2017, 20:06   #19625 (permalink)
 
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the EU has no option to further integrate.

There is a 15-20 year window to do it or Germany is stuffed.

UK and France are fine out of the big economies but the rest just are not breeding enough to keep a viable work force to provide for the pensioners.

Quote:
ECJ ? I really don't have a problem with that ! In someways it's a safeguard against extreme right or left rulings in the UK
Its not, all it does is resolve disputes between European members and EU legislation. The member can go to it and ask for its interpretation of an EU law for its own case law. But as such it doesn't get involved yet in local case law. You can't appeal directly to the ECJ as an individual if your case doesn't go the way you want it in a member state.

Again the remains are focusing on the short term, personally I don't think the UK should have to pay to maintain the standard of living and promises the German government has given 60 % of its people in 20 years time when it becomes impossible for the german working population to support them.
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Old 8th Oct 2017, 20:58   #19626 (permalink)
 
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Pace what ever your points about what you think will happen once the UK is out personally I think are pretty meaningless.


The mechanics of getting out of art 50 and the legality a of what needs to happen in the UK is what is going to defeat you. Never mind what the EU will want to happen.

If they have multiple plans what are they ? The only plan I can see is bluff it to the final day in the hope the UK caves in.

Asset strip we have already been through that and the two agency's are now dead in the water as most of the people working for them have refused to move. What other assets are you thinking of?

If it's banking stuff they are going to hit the same issue with people not wanting to move.
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Old 8th Oct 2017, 21:21   #19627 (permalink)

I'd rather be floating

 
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Originally Posted by tescoapp View Post
If it's banking stuff they are going to hit the same issue with people not wanting to move.
Which is worse, of course - not only do we lose the business and the tax but we also get stuffed with a load of unemployed to pay benefit to and we don't even get the housing freed up.
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Old 8th Oct 2017, 21:39   #19628 (permalink)
 
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I am sorry Pace you are still not answering the question. you have said in previous posts that staying in the EU will mean we are poorer and engulfed in a united states of Europe. So even you admit you cant have both. My question is very simple really an independent UK or an integrated EUSSR.

This is what you said in May 2016 on page 143

Quote:
Vote IN and you are voting to join the BIG state and to hand all control to Brussels vote OUT and you are voting to retain some control over our destiny as well as with the repercussions forcing the EU to maybe make some changes
Some come on in a EU superstate or out and be a democratic country, choose one please because this question is not going away.

Quote:
Frankly faced with no deal this government have no moral right to push brexit through at any cost because of their complete failure
It must go back to the people and if they still support that sort of exit do be it
So the question would go something like this then.

Leave with no deal or stay, lose your rebate,accept the Euro, lose your veto on more areas of policy and eventually become a small insignificant poorer part of a undemocratic EU Superstate.

I know now you would vote to stay and give away everything we have fought and died for over the years condemming our children to live in a undemocratic bloc similar to the USSR but what do you think the majority of the UK public would vote if the qustion was phrased like that?
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Old 8th Oct 2017, 21:45   #19629 (permalink)
 
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Oh by the way to add to the last post, you admitted a while back that had we voted to remain we would not have got another vote ever as part of Camerons deal with the EU so effectivly it was YOU who said democracy ended with that vote.

Quote:
The government are masters at concealing agreement small print and when it comes to light he will say he told us there was no possible further vote but the agreement will be that if the UK vote in no further vote is allowed
Its there in the small print not for public consumption I bet otherwise his statement and stance makes no sense.
we have key points not a copy of the agreement in full 4th March 2016 page 55 post 1086 by Pace
Well if its good for remain its good for leave
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Old 8th Oct 2017, 22:04   #19630 (permalink)
 
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No doubt the whole question of Northern Ireland and the border with the Republic has come up on this thread before, but today it was announced that the Irish Republic does trade with 91,000 UK companies, and every day there are 13,000 trucks crossing the border.

If/when customs controls come into effect, not only will we be paying the current 20% v.a.t. on items from the EU, but for personally imported items the Royal Mail (or whatever they're called at present) will then add their 5 (or thereabouts) "admin charge" for collecting the v.a.t.

To borrow a phrase from the late (and, in my case, unlamented) Enoch Powell, we must be stark. staring mad. What have we done to the country?
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Old 8th Oct 2017, 22:14   #19631 (permalink)
 
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To borrow a phrase from the late (and, in my case, unlamented) Enoch Powell, we must be stark. staring mad. What have we done to the country?
Lets put the question another way Buster what price do you put on wanting to live in a free democratic country?
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Old 8th Oct 2017, 22:44   #19632 (permalink)
 
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Perhaps there was a plan all along

Brexit: 'No deal' planning is well under way, says minister - BBC News

I did suggest way back when that there had to be a reason politicians of all denomination were so keen to get us out of the EU.
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Old 8th Oct 2017, 23:23   #19633 (permalink)
 
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Originally Posted by Gertrude the Wombat View Post
That could be the opening bid from one side, yes. But if the other side disagrees then it's up to the courts.
What court though. The ECJ wont have jurisdiction and I am unaware of any others that would.

So what courts do you have in mind?
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Old 8th Oct 2017, 23:46   #19634 (permalink)
 
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Originally Posted by Seldomfitforpurpose View Post
Perhaps there was a plan all along

Brexit: 'No deal' planning is well under way, says minister - BBC News

I did suggest way back when that there had to be a reason politicians of all denomination were so keen to get us out of the EU.
It's all a joke really though isn't it because it all depends on which newspaper you read or which government department you chose to listen to. The independent says that legal consultation has been entered into by TM's office about whether we'd have the right to revoke article 50. The DeEU say's that it can not be revoked. This, obviously, is political not legal. The independent is focused on the revoking article 50 news and doesn't mention the "no deal planning" while the telegraph is the opposite.

In reality it's probably 50/50 whether this government will remain in control and whether David Davis will still be our negotiator in a years time.

Clearly in my opinion it's not just about "Brexiter democracy", pragmatic short term/medium term economics is also important as our debt/gdp is so high and will probably increase rapidly after Brexit. You just need to pull out a calculator to work out that Greek debt levels are very possible very quickly.
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Old 9th Oct 2017, 00:26   #19635 (permalink)
 
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If we accept that Brexit will happen, with a default no deal, and the remain supporters are all persons of greater intelligence; then rather than moaning about how bad things are about to become in the UK, could all that superior intelligence be applied to ensuring that the UK thrives as an independent sovereign country. Or is that too difficult for you all?

I really don't think the leave supporters are the thickos in this debate. They knew what they were voting for and despite not having degrees and high paid jobs, they were still prepared to pay the price for independence from the EU.

So all you graduates, get used to the fact that your cost of living is going to go up and you might actually have to do a worthwhile job making something rather than answering emails half the day and playing computer games and viewing facebook the other half.
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Old 9th Oct 2017, 04:14   #19636 (permalink)
 
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hey I am a graduate....

Must admit I do fair % of my working life looking out a window...

No facebook in the air......

Who needs computer games when you have a 20 million aircraft and 8000 ltrs of fuel a day to play with.
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Old 9th Oct 2017, 04:49   #19637 (permalink)
 
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Q2 results out.

Nothing to bad for the UK, government expenditure is flat and modest growth with increases in exports.


http://www.oecd.org/std/na/G7_country_charts_E_Q217.pdf
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Old 9th Oct 2017, 06:32   #19638 (permalink)
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
 
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Old 9th Oct 2017, 07:07   #19639 (permalink)
 
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Originally Posted by Rob Courtney View Post
Lets put the question another way Buster what price do you put on wanting to live in a free democratic country?
Exactly what price, if any, is too high to satisfy your goal for living in what you call a "free democratic country"?
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Old 9th Oct 2017, 07:13   #19640 (permalink)
 
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The price for not being involved with saving Germany from its socialist preference via being a member of a super state. H'mmm tough one.

Certainly a lot higher than its going to cost us to come out now.

The other major issue is that if we stay in the cost is just going to get progressively more. And it won't even be linear as the goal posts will move for the next country escaping.

Currently we have a one off escape route which with a default exit and refusal to pay will cost only infrastructure changes which will be the same now or later.

So hit to economy in the short term but out seems pretty good to me.
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