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Old 22nd Apr 2017, 08:07   #12221 (permalink)
 
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SFFP: that may be the case, but there are those implying that the UK will be totally cut off from the EU both economically and freedom to move around, in fact some claim that the UK will pull up the drawbridge and fall to a level of a third world country, being isolated and ignored as we descend into oblivion.
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Old 22nd Apr 2017, 08:38   #12222 (permalink)
 
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That is just Remain scaremongering, we all managed quite nicely prior to Schengen and will all manage quite nicely post Brexit.
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Old 22nd Apr 2017, 09:04   #12223 (permalink)
 
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Originally Posted by Gertrude the Wombat View Post
I don't mind people making personal sacrifices for their principles, but I do mind very much indeed when other people decide to make me make very considerable personal sacrifices for their principles, with which I disagree anyway.


If the #brexit voters were paying all the costs, and not taking my freedom of movement away from me, ect ect, then there would be less to be cross about.
GtW
Do you at least accept that this cuts both ways?

Given a 'Remain' win last June, your vision of the UK in the EU would have been imposed on those voting to leave to their disagreement and anger.

On EU FoM, which element will hit you hardest? Holiday travel? Business travel? Employment in EU27? Social/health benefits in EU27? Right to buy/own property? Right of establishment (ie start a business)?

Regards
Batco

Last edited by BATCO; 22nd Apr 2017 at 09:36.
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Old 22nd Apr 2017, 09:37   #12224 (permalink)
 
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That is just Remain scaremongering, we all managed quite nicely prior to Schengen and will all manage quite nicely post Brexit.
Sadly it's a different world nowadays
It's all about the trade blocks and trade between those blocks which are interrelated
You either play the game and join in or perish out in the cold

The EU is the USA biggest market
Of course Trump will now sidestep us and deal direct if we are less than 100% competative

Quote:
Given a 'Remain' win last June, your vision of the UK in the EU would have been imposed on those voting to leave to their disagreement and anger.
Batco there is a difference
Firstly we are doing very well out of the single market and to a certain extent immigration which has made the UK a centre of excellence for trade into Europe as well as a buzzing international country
Part of that successs is the independence from Europe in having our own currency while having Tariff free unfettered access to Europe
That has been a huge magnet for international investment
Kill that attraction and you kill the investment

Had the vote gone 52 remain then the government would be morally obliged to reinforce that independence and to make it clear that the will of the people was just to remain which wasn't a mandate for further Union

But the big difference is that brexit will damage the economy and jobs without Tariff free unfettered access
Being in the EU has lead to our success
You are asking remainers to stomach the pain of brexit which they didn't choose
If brexit was going to increase our economy then your argument would stand but you are asking people to accept pain on the basis of religion of brexit no more
They don't hold your religious beliefs

Last edited by Pace; 22nd Apr 2017 at 09:56.
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Old 22nd Apr 2017, 09:50   #12225 (permalink)
 
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You either play the game and join in or perish out in the cold
Firstly it is the EU that don't want to play, and secondly you are the one of a few who peddle the disaster that awaits the UK if we don't stay almost fully in the EU, i.e.

Quote:
but there are those implying that the UK will be totally cut off from the EU both economically and freedom to move around, in fact some claim that the UK will pull up the drawbridge and fall to a level of a third world country, being isolated and ignored as we descend into oblivion.
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Old 22nd Apr 2017, 09:58   #12226 (permalink)
 
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ExR

What I find interesting is that this drawbridge image (or Pace's "sailing off into the distance") is a caricature dreamed up by Remainers in an effort to smear those who wish to leave. Orwell would have recognised this tactic.

To persist with the imagery, the reality is that in addition to wishing to maintain a bridge to the EU, leavers also wish to construct one to the rest of the world (something which the EU has been spectacularly bad at doing. e.g. of the last 14 EU-3rd nation trade deals, fully 10 have resulted in a reduction of trade!).


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Old 22nd Apr 2017, 10:09   #12227 (permalink)
 
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If it's about trade blocks. Then we can join nafta
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Old 22nd Apr 2017, 10:10   #12228 (permalink)
 
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Pace
My comment to GtW was based on GtW's previous comment. However, by your intervention you are saying that 'No, I don't accept that there is an equivalence between being forced to leave and being forced to stay'.

On the 'had 52% voted to remain' point. May I remind you that no further union was already inbuilt in the 'Remain' offer (please go and read the Council's February 2016 agreement which would have inter alia exempted the UK from 'ever closer union'). So, for about the 6th time, what would you have offered the 48% who had voted leave?

On my so-called "religious beliefs", I take that as the first time you've personally insulted me rather than my (admittedly limited) intelligence by continuing to debate with you despite you never answering questions put to you, and by persisting in advocating impossible positions (e.g. leave the EU but stay in the sm).

Regards
Batco
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Old 22nd Apr 2017, 10:14   #12229 (permalink)
 
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BATCO,

The best thing to do with pace is ignore.
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Old 22nd Apr 2017, 10:25   #12230 (permalink)
 
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With regard to trade and EU trade deals, it seem to me that the over riding intention of the EU for the past couple of decades or more has been to protect EU industries, even if they are spectacularly inefficient.

To that end it has imposed restrictive tariffs across the whole of the EU, in order to protect the interests of, sometimes, a single member state. A good example is solar panels, whether you agree with them or not they are an interesting case in terms of trade.

Within the EU, Germany had the largest solar panel manufacturing sector. The problem is that Germany is also expensive; it has relatively high labour costs and imports raw materials to produce panels.

China has a very powerful government-led, renewable energy sector. Sure the government have subsidised this, but then so has our own government, in a different way. China has much cheaper labour and manufacturing costs, and better access to raw materials, so unsurprisingly they can manufacture solar panels for a lot less than Germany.

The EUs response has been to impose a massive import tariff on Chinese made panels, pushing their price up in every EU state, in order to protect German industry. In effect, tariffs like this are another form of payment every state makes to the EU, as anyone who buys these products from China has to pay the punitive additional duty.

The UK barely has any solar panel manufacturing capability, and that which it does has isn't true manufacture, but assembly of components from outwith the UK. After we leave the EU we can choose to reduce the EU-imposed duty on Chinese made panels, so making renewable energy cheaper and reducing the need for the UK government to continue to offer subsidies, so cutting public spending.
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Old 22nd Apr 2017, 10:41   #12231 (permalink)
 
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Batco

The religious bit wasn't directed at you but a comment made by another brexit poster who described his brexit inclination as being more of a religion and hence he would take the pain of brexit for something higher
So absolutely not directed to you

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/n...118918_1756588

This is more worrying as if the USA get Tariff free access on goods and services then firstly why not us ?
Second we need to worry about New York stealing our financial services crown

I have nothing against brexit if we have Tariff free and unfettered access too
I don't really care how May achieves that as long as it is achieved
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Old 22nd Apr 2017, 10:52   #12232 (permalink)
 
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Originally Posted by Seldomfitforpurpose View Post
That is just Remain scaremongering, we all managed quite nicely prior to Schengen and will all manage quite nicely post Brexit.
Seldom it does amuse me that you and similar brexiters say such things as if you KNOW things that others don't. Schengen was signed in 1985. The world has changed beyond anything we can 'go back to'

'We' have no idea how this will pan out. I am sure UK plc will work it out but not because of any plan being followed from before the brexit vote.

I think that if the vote was held again next week the result would be to remain. I dont think that would be a good thing now but dont try to kid me that YOU know how this will end up. You dont.

I am reminded of The Admirable Crichton, the comic stage play (1902) by J. M. Barrie.

Last edited by Islandlad; 22nd Apr 2017 at 11:04.
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Old 22nd Apr 2017, 10:56   #12233 (permalink)
 
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Pace

The United Kingdom is responsible for one sixth of the total EU trade with the US. That is unlikely to change after Brexit. Another way of looking at it is that the EU will be losing one sixth of its' trade with the US as the UK leaves. That is very bad from an EU perspective as they will also be losing our conributions too.

Secondly, unfettered tariff free access to the EU is not available to any country. Members have to make an annual contribution to the EU budget, a kind of tariff or tax. Non members such a China have import duty imposed on their products.

Since the UK will not be a member of the EU, there is absolutely no possible circumstance where unfettered tariff free access to the EU can be granted, no matter which government is running the country. To believe or hope for any other outcome is to completely divorce oneself from reality.
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Old 22nd Apr 2017, 11:08   #12234 (permalink)
 
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Originally Posted by G0ULI View Post
The United Kingdom is responsible for one sixth of the total EU trade with the US. That is unlikely to change after Brexit.
do you have anything better than 'unlikely' for me?
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Old 22nd Apr 2017, 11:45   #12235 (permalink)

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Quote:
Originally Posted by BATCO View Post
Given a 'Remain' win last June, your vision of the UK in the EU would have been imposed on those voting to leave to their disagreement and anger.
Well, anyone who doesn't like it here would have been more free to leave than they are now going to be!
Quote:
Originally Posted by BATCO View Post
On EU FoM, which element will hit you hardest? Holiday travel? Business travel? Employment in EU27? Social/health benefits in EU27? Right to buy/own property? Right of establishment (ie start a business)?
You left out the rights of my children to choose between 28 countries rather than 1 when deciding where to do their PhDs, where to get jobs, where to live.
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Old 22nd Apr 2017, 11:46   #12236 (permalink)
 
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Gouli

I am talking about Tariff free unfettered access which we must have if not the UK will shrink and be sidelined
Will that cost us YES but if you want a store up Oxford street you pay for that access big time but get big benefits
You don't stick the Uk up a back street and say look what we are saving on rental
The world markets are dominated by the blocks and trade interrelated
If you don't play the game you loose out

May promised us as good a deal as being in the single market but like everything she says changed it

Immigration is a plus yes there are cancerous bits but you don't cut out healthy flesh
The vast majority of EU immigration is healthy flesh we need
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Old 22nd Apr 2017, 11:48   #12237 (permalink)
 
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Originally Posted by Islandlad View Post
Seldom it does amuse me that you and similar brexiters say such things as if you KNOW things that others don't. Schengen was signed in 1985. The world has changed beyond anything we can 'go back to'

'We' have no idea how this will pan out. I am sure UK plc will work it out but not because of any plan being followed from before the brexit vote.

I think that if the vote was held again next week the result would be to remain. I dont think that would be a good thing now but dont try to kid me that YOU know how this will end up. You dont.

I am reminded of The Admirable Crichton, the comic stage play (1902) by J. M. Barrie.
If you would like to point out anywhere in this thread or any other thread where I have alluded to "I know" how this is going to pan out please feel free to do so.

I have been 100% consistent in saying that the UK will negotiate the best exit deal possible and what will be will be.

The rest of the world currently manage to travel/work/live within the EU so why are some folk assuming that is going to become so bloody difficult for us to manage post Brexit.
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Old 22nd Apr 2017, 12:46   #12238 (permalink)
 
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Donít believe Theresa May. The election wonít change Brexit one bit | Guy Verhofstadt - the guardian
https://apple.news/A0KJEsoDXPhWCPhqz36-BYg

Guardian so cannot be right but gives a pretty accurate insight into the Uks folly
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Old 22nd Apr 2017, 13:07   #12239 (permalink)
 
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Originally Posted by VP959 View Post
With regard to trade and EU trade deals, it seem to me that the over riding intention of the EU for the past couple of decades or more has been to protect EU industries, even if they are spectacularly inefficient.

To that end it has imposed restrictive tariffs across the whole of the EU, in order to protect the interests of, sometimes, a single member state. A good example is solar panels, whether you agree with them or not they are an interesting case in terms of trade.
This is what people ignore - the EU has a very large tariff barrier around its core market that pushes up prices for the consumer. Another classic example was lightbulbs, when we went to CFL from incandescent the EU put a 70% tariff on Chines bulbs to protect German lightbulb manufacturers - the UK doesn't manufacture CFL lightbulbs so the UK consumer ended up paying unnecessarily high prices to protect a German industry that was uncompetitive on the world market.

We are actually paying £8bn a year in membership fees for the 'benefit' of being able to have higher prices for the consumer.
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Old 22nd Apr 2017, 13:07   #12240 (permalink)
 
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Originally Posted by Gertrude the Wombat View Post
Well, anyone who doesn't like it here would have been more free to leave than they are now going to be!
How so 'more free' to leave the UK (for a non-EU destination) than they will be after we leave the EU? And while we're still in the EU, you can still make use of current EU FoM to move to one of the EU27 with your family.

Regards
Batco

PS. Gouli's post 12233 should be compulsory reading for all, as should Jet II's post 12239.

Last edited by BATCO; 22nd Apr 2017 at 13:31.
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