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Old 12th Aug 2016, 20:51   #81 (permalink)
 
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The problem with wind turbines is that they extract energy from a very low density medium (air) and the movement of the medium is inconsistent.

Tidal power systems on the other hand extract energy from a dense medium, water, which moves to a consistent schedule.
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Old 12th Aug 2016, 20:56   #82 (permalink)
 
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Using the IPCC's CO2 figures for the production of GRP, steel and concrete and a rated power of 2.3MW for a 90m tall turbine like thisNews Detail then the turbine will generate approx. 410,000kg of CO2. It will take the turbine approx. 2.7 years for it to generate the power produced by an oil powered generator producing the same amount of CO2. Sounds like a winner right?

However, a 2.3MW unit should develop 72,533KWh over the course of a year compared to the 7,120KWh the manufacturer claims for the turbine. If oil is used to generate the 88% shortfall of the turbine v requirements then another 1,360,000kg of CO2 will be generated over the course of the year.

Comparing oil v turbine, oil produces 1,536,000kg CO2 to generate the annual 72,533KWh expected from a 2.3MW unit but it will require just over 10 turbines to fulfill the demand of one equivalent oil fired plant to give a total of 4,100,000kg of CO2. Still, on this basis the turbines will be ahead of the oil plant after approx. 2.7 years again.

Does this mean that we can close down the nasty oil plants? Unfortunately not as, to maintain base load through the year for the 321 days the turbines are not operating (88% shortfall above), we will have to have the oil plant running anyway to the tune of 1,360,000kg CO/year anyway plus their emissions when they are running at idle waiting for the turbines to stop.

Can somebody remind me why the turbines were built again please?
Oh sir, please sir, me sir!

Money, and plenty of it to be made in subsidies, and misguided idiots that wrote the laws to make it possible.

Save the planet/children always works, ask the teachers unions.
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Old 12th Aug 2016, 21:21   #83 (permalink)
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Tidal power systems on the other hand extract energy from a dense medium, water, which moves to a consistent schedule.
Then why haven't we got successful tidal energy extraction?
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Old 13th Aug 2016, 00:36   #84 (permalink)


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Originally Posted by G-CPTN View Post
Then why haven't we got successful tidal energy extraction?
Because it is ridiculously expensive. Nice idea but it is obscenely expensive, otherwise every country that had a coast would be doing it. Look into the numbers.

Shove a nuclear power plant in, bury the waste underground. Job done. Cheap, reliable power.

If we need gas powered plants in the meantime then we can utilise our underground resources through fracking. Or would you rather the gas was shipped in by tanker from the Persian/Arabian Gulf as is done now?

Rip down those filthy ugly wind turbines and their associated power lines that despoil our once beautiful countryside and by doing that you will reduce electricity bills for the peasantry such as myself. In the UK a significant proportion of electricity bills go towards subsidising these bird mincing, bat zapping vanity projects.

Commit to nuclear power and fracking and the Middle East can go back to doing what they do best: Driving round the desert on camels looking for water, pearl fishing, and killing each other.

If you want hydroelectric power then go to Scandinavia or harness the hydroelectric power from Mr Cazalets tears as he realises the futility of his one man crusade to save the planet by installing a couple of solar panels (at our expense) in Tunbridge Wells, or wherever he lives. To be fair, the performance of his electric car sounds impressive (performance, not endurance or cost effectiveness). P.S. pleased don't take that personally Mr Cazalet, no offence is intended, I enjoy reading your technical posts.

Do the above and the world will will be a better place. Simple really.

Note to self: Don't go on PPRuNe after I've been to the pub......whoops done it again, sorry.
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Old 13th Aug 2016, 02:49   #85 (permalink)
 
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Then why haven't we got successful tidal energy extraction?

See Rance tidal power plant and Sihwa Lake tidal power Plant.
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Old 13th Aug 2016, 11:33   #86 (permalink)
 
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and fltlt goes straight to the top of the class
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Old 13th Aug 2016, 16:39   #87 (permalink)
 
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That's not necessarily true. It's about apportioning the total costs.

I live in the foothills of Sun Diego where the sun shines quite a bit. I'm considering solar (still working on buying vs leasing) to lessen my portion of the overall energy costs. That I invest in solar will (hopefully) mean MY costs are reduced. A market has developed based on individual homeowners needs, goals and willingness to pay. It doesn't speak to the overall cost or efficiency relative to other forms of energy. I'm also incentivized by the government to buy the panels with a check and tax write offs, so the overall costs of those panels will go up about $4,000.

There doesn't have to be a macro effect to develop a market, a micro (my willingness to pay for solar) one is driving it currently as relates to solar panels.
Living in lala land you must be aware of Aaarnolds signature on the feel good clean air bill some years ago, for one that set up a tent on the capital lawn to smoke cigars, drives an H1 Hummer, etc., etc., etc., it seems counter intuitive, but I digress.
When the greenies rise to occupy state govt positions and rise to the top it is a prime example of the "Peter Principle".
It's been happening for years, the problem is that when unelected state officials are allowed to "Make the Laws" as in SCAQMD, AQMD, et al, it is their personal views of what is right, nothing else.
So you get the automobile manufacturers being told that if x% of your vehicles are not hybrid/electric/pedal power by the year y, then sorry, we the great state of ca will not allow you to sell ANY of your other vehicles in ca.
Blackmail, nah.
Then when the sales of said green vehicles fall Waaay short of your touted green agenda you sweeten the pot by handing out subsidies (read paid for by everyone else that couldn't afford to buy one)
and throw in a car pool lane get out of jail free pass for only you in the vehicle.
Now that still didn't work, so they are now floating the idea of "pay to play" tracking the miles you drive and taxing you for them.
If you do, in a moment of bed wetting insanity, purchase an all electric vehicle, Leaf, etc., and a half dozen of your latte drinking friends live in the same electrikery sub station served area, you may not get the home charging station you need because the circuits were never designed to carry those loads.
Don't believe me, go talk to SCE/PG&E.

On the other side of the coin, the green govt utility folks mandate by z year the utility companies (SCE/PG&E) must purchase, I believe it's north of 30% now, from "renewable resources" otherwise we are going to levy taxes in a disproportionate amount on you all.
Now I wonder were that macro push to renewables/subsidies came from?
Social engineering of personal beliefs through legislation and taxation, didn't someone fight a war over that some time ago?
Oh, and to appease the little people, rebates and subsidies even to the extent of providing a yearly "rebate" on your utility bill titled "Green/Alternative" or words to that effect, rebate, in big, bold, letters.
Probably 99.9% of regular folks don't realize it's their money they are getting back because they were overcharged in the first place.

It's all for the planet and the children.
How could one say no to raking in millions and millions of dollars for those two.
You can fool.......
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Old 13th Aug 2016, 17:03   #88 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Hill View Post
See Rance tidal power plant and Sihwa Lake tidal power Plant.
Neither seem to be without associated ecological problems - silting and toxin buildup.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rance_...nmental_impact

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sihwa_...mental_context
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Old 13th Aug 2016, 17:06   #89 (permalink)
 
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You cannot make this Crap up....really!

Why are the Lefties so into being the "Thought Police" and have this thing about ending Free Speech anytime it does not comport with their tightly held views?

Some State Attorney Generals....all Democrats of course....are onboard with this thinking and have threatened to prosecute folks who do not embrace the AGW Doctrine and Agenda.

Fortunately, the First Amendment still protects "Speech" and "Expression" and so far the majority of the American People strongly object to any such effort by State and Federal Prosecutors.

US Attorney General: 'We May Prosecute Climate Change Deniers'.
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Old 13th Aug 2016, 18:29   #90 (permalink)
 
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You cannot make this Crap up....really!

Why are the Lefties so into being the "Thought Police" and have this thing about ending Free Speech anytime it does not comport with their tightly held views?

Some State Attorney Generals....all Democrats of course....are onboard with this thinking and have threatened to prosecute folks who do not embrace the AGW Doctrine and Agenda.

Fortunately, the First Amendment still protects "Speech" and "Expression" and so far the majority of the American People strongly object to any such effort by State and Federal Prosecutors.

US Attorney General: 'We May Prosecute Climate Change Deniers'.
You can fool....
For the folks that throw the BS flag, legislate against them.

But as long as most folks stick their heads in the sand, they will get away with it.
Of course all you solar power nuts have heard of the huge plant just across the Nevada state line in CA, the owners (Microsoft, Alphabet, nee Google) and all the rest of the companies that own and operate internet servers have had to pony up a lot more money as it isn't producing as advertised.
Now one would ask why such companies would invest in such things, for the planet and the children? Nope, to satisfy Govt regulations and utility tax credits, paid for by who, us, regular folks.
For those that can be bothered, look up the history of SEGS I, II and III in CA.

SEGS I got heatstroke and burnt to the ground, liquid sodium gets hot.
Then they went PV, after cleaning up north of 50 tons, yes tons, of broken mirror glass caused by, wait for it, drum roll please, birds.
Seems the pesky critters used to drop stones on them.
When they installed new ones, never bothered to clean up underneath.
Then the PV subsidy ran out, so now it's back to desert.
No Buck's, no Buck Solar.

One of the "new" solar plants declared bankruptcy, Govt quietly gave them another few sacks of dollars. Move along, nothing to see here.

Now the Ca govt has upped the renewable %, extended the credits, whole new mega solar projects are springing up.

And just to amuse you, each project has to have at least two "protect the wildlife" degree'd individuals on staff at north of $85,000 salary each.

Regular folks have absolutely no idea how their hard earned tax dollars are funneled.

A very intelligent friend of mine has a Chevy Volt.
Asked why he bought it, answer was it had subsidies, for both the car and the home charging station and he can charge it for free when away from home.
Same for his solar panels, subsidies.

Caveat was if there had been no subsidies he wouldn't have bothered.
And yes, he leans left and likes lentils, but isn't a shove it down you're throat type.

Gotta love lala land.
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Old 14th Aug 2016, 14:11   #91 (permalink)
 
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birds breaking solar panels?

fltlt

did an internet search but couldn't find any articles(s) on the broken solar panels caused by birds dropping stones.

Are you able to point to any sources for this. Just interested to have a read

thanks
layman
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Old 14th Aug 2016, 14:33   #92 (permalink)
 
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fltlt

did an internet search but couldn't find any articles(s) on the broken solar panels caused by birds dropping stones.

Are you able to point to any sources for this. Just interested to have a read

thanks
layman
Standing amid heaps of shattered panels talking with the project manager in charge of the changeover to PV.
You have to remember that the original parabolic mirrors were probably 10ft long by 4ft high, somewhat thin to keep the weight down for the tracker frames.
One stone literally destroyed the whole section.
When the night cleaning crews found the missing panel(s) they were noted and fixed within a couple of days.
If you have ever been in, and I do mean in a solar array field, you will understand why no real effort was expended to remove the broken glass.
Crows love to drop things.
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Old 14th Aug 2016, 14:38   #93 (permalink)
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It would appear the limit for renewables is about 30% of total supply. At least in Germany - and I can't see it being much different elsewhere.......

Buffering Volatility: A Study on the Limits of Germany’s Energy Revolution

"Based on German hourly feed-in and consumption data for electric power, this paper studies the storage and buffering needs resulting from the volatility of wind and solar energy. It shows that joint buffers for wind and solar energy require less storage capacity than would be necessary to buffer wind or solar energy alone. The storage requirement of over 6,000 pumped storage plants, which is 183 times Germany’s current capacity, would nevertheless be huge. Taking the volatility of demand into account would further increase storage needs, and managing demand by way of peak-load pricing would only marginally reduce the storage capacity required. Thus, only a buffering strategy based on dual structures, i.e. conventional energy filling the gaps left in windless and dark periods, seems feasible. Green and fossil plants would then be complements, rather than substitutes, contrary to widespread assumptions. Unfortunately, however, this buffering strategy loses its effectiveness when wind and solar production overshoots electricity demand, which happens beyond coverage of about a third of aggregate electricity production. Voluminous, costly and inefficient storage devices will then be unavoidable. This will make it difficult for Germany to pursue its energy revolution beyond merely replacing nuclear fuel towards a territory where it can also crowd out fossil fuel."
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Old 14th Aug 2016, 14:44   #94 (permalink)
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from Wiki:-
Quote:
The greatest source of mirror breakage is wind, with 3,000 mirrors typically replaced each year.
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Old 14th Aug 2016, 14:59   #95 (permalink)
 
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And yes, in the middle of the Mojave Desert we have crows/blackbirds, big, black damn birds.
They scavenge at the military landfills. DPW was curious and tracked them a few years ago.
Breakfast at Irwin, over to Edwards for lunch, but then the air force always had better food, then I guess menu dependent Edwards/Irwin for supper.
Odd forays down to 29 Palms when the Marines have something really special on the menu I guess.
Anybody here seen two crows fighting over an unopened MRE in a trash trailer?
Or a coyote laid on the hood of a Humvee, grinning because he scored an unopened MRE which he had between his front paws? Walk past and it jumps down, MRE in mouth, and wanders off, happy as a clam, no chasing rabbits for a short while.
And yes, animals have MRE's they covet and ones they completely ignore.
The desert is a fascinating place, but not for humans, at least this one.
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Old 14th Aug 2016, 15:16   #96 (permalink)
 
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I bet even the Crows and Coyotes will not even turn an Eye towards the Pork in Jamaican Jerk Spice in the MRE's....even Nigerians turned their Noses up at them.
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Old 14th Aug 2016, 15:20   #97 (permalink)
 
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Originally Posted by G-CPTN View Post
from Wiki:-
Don't you just love Wiki, if you google ground mounts for PV panels the design standard used to be, and it's been a few years since I looked, for Daggett, CA 92327.
The ridges funnel the wind which can top 120mph at ground level.
Now SEGS I is about a mile or so due west of Daggett airfield, so you can obtain all the met data from there if interested.
When the plant was originally designed due care and consideration was taken as to field orientation.
Now granted, some of the breakage may have been done by the wind, and that was my initial comment seeing all the mountains of broken glass and being told, that's what's left to haul away.
The project manager for I believe it was SunRay at the time, I have his card somewhere, said that when they cleaned the arrays each night after, or during severe winds, they might find one or two broken panels, but panels were breaking every day when there was no wind.
Normally nobody is out in the field during the day, but every night, more broken panels. Someone shooting, vandalism?
Finally, due to costs, they sat on the hill south of I 15 and watched panels breaking with birds circling overhead using the thermal from the field.
No birds, no breakage.
I leave you to draw your own conclusions.
Simply recanting what I was told from someone who was responsible for the P&L day to day operations whilst stood in the middle of the array field discussing a completely different business operation.
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Old 14th Aug 2016, 15:28   #98 (permalink)
 
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[QUOTE=SASless;9473464]I bet even the Crows and Coyotes will not even turn an Eye towards the Pork in Jamaican Jerk Spice in the MRE's....even Nigerians turned their Noses up at them.

It is amusing that taste, rather than hunger drives their selection.
And they don't rip them open to find out what they are, so one must presume the sealing is only good enough for leaks, not smell.
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Old 14th Aug 2016, 16:28   #99 (permalink)
 
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If anyone wants to follow the solar goings on in SoCal

San Bernardino Sun newspaper yesterday, front page story: Ivanpah ( the large Microsoft/Alphabet solar field on the Cal/Nev border) finally reaches an agreement with PG&E regarding its lower than projected output since 2014, google it.

Then Wiki/Google Soda Mountain Project and follow along as the Feds, State, County and BLM play hot potato, the public's opinion shall not matter.

Oh, almost forgot, World Bank financing for mega solar projects for investors.

And just to maintain a military aspect, look up Johnson Valley off highway vehicle park, how would you like to share your quad/atv adventures with the Marines?
Only in lala land.

I present the above for your own edification as it appears Wiki beats actual, oh well, I shall now just sit back and watch.
Enjoy yourselves, wiki away.
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Old 15th Aug 2016, 05:20   #100 (permalink)
 
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fltlt / G-CPTN - thanks

Regularly drive past an 83,000 flat panel / 20Mw solar farm that's been operating for 2 years and they're still grazing sheep under them. Hopefully not too much glass for them to chew on!

Just reading a bit further in the Wikipedia article (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_...rating_Systems) and it appears to show SEGS I still generating power, albeit quite a bit down from its peak

cheers
layman
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