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Old 8th Aug 2016, 15:52   #21 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hempy View Post
I put more fossil fuels back into the grid via solar power than my household uses in electricity and petroleum per annum by a reasonable margin.
No you don't, you just made that up.

I bet you haven't taken into account all the fossil fuel used on your behalf by government, local authorities, businesses, service providers etc.

Sanctimony on a stick
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Old 8th Aug 2016, 15:55   #22 (permalink)
 
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The original poster could only be either Australian or American!

You only have to look at comparative photographs of glaciers now and 30 years ago, or ask people living in low-lying pacific islands to realise that global warming isn't some sort of "hysteria" but is real, is happening, and undoubtedly human activity is at least in part the cause.

Developing shale gas, ahead of renewables, just puts off the day when the human race will have to find viable alternatives to fossil fuels or else the lights will go off. To believe otherwise is to have one's head firmly in the sand - or be a fully paid up member of the flat earth society.

And, as one would imagine most PPRuNers have some involvement in aviation, might it not be better to conserve what fossil fuels we have to keep pilots in jobs, rather than fritter them away to keep household and industrial energy bills down.
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Old 8th Aug 2016, 16:09   #23 (permalink)
 
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ATNotts, although the OP is from my home country, if you check his posting history you'll find that all is not well in the 'top paddock'.

Sitiwhatever, you post your latest power bill and I'll paste mine. Mine was (as I stated) in the positive enough to carry our vehicles fuel costs and out household electricity costs. And It's winter in Australia.

Yours?

Waiting with baited breath...
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Old 8th Aug 2016, 16:40   #24 (permalink)
 
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Originally Posted by Hempy View Post

Sitiwhatever, you post your latest power bill and I'll paste mine. Mine was (as I stated) in the positive enough to carry our vehicles fuel costs and out household electricity costs. And It's winter in Australia.

Yours?

Waiting with baited breath...
I have made no claim (or boast) about my energy usage, it was you who raised this point and it is up to you to prove it. Just accept that you can't, and what you said was (charitable mode on) wrong. You cannot say that you exist solely on solar panel on your roof, or whatever, without factoring in all the other energy generated on your behalf, and without which you would soon be back in the stone age.

BTW, it is bated, not baited breath (unless you have an oral hygiene problem, that is)
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Old 8th Aug 2016, 17:47   #25 (permalink)
 
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Developing shale gas, ahead of renewables, just puts off the day when the human race will have to find viable alternatives to fossil fuels or else the lights will go off. To believe otherwise is to have one's head firmly in the sand - or be a fully paid up member of the flat earth society.
I think the issue with renewables is you still need a back up in case the wind does not blow or the sun goes in. By all means keep developing them but until they are 100% reliable you run the risk of the lights going out. It is madness not to look at exploiting a clean source of energy just out of sheer dogma.

Imagine where we would be if we had banned the opening of coal mines under environmental considerations a couple of hundred years back.
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Old 8th Aug 2016, 18:54   #26 (permalink)
 
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Have always believed one or two good volcano eruptions will fix things for the next 50,000 years.

Then what'll ya do with yer carbon credits???
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Old 8th Aug 2016, 19:14   #27 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ATNotts View Post
Developing shale gas, ahead of renewables,
They are both being developed in parallel, it's just that the latter are more expensive per unit energy. If you want to see how stupid some of the "renewables are" take a look at the ethanol scam here in the US. On the flip side, if you head to southern Texas you'll see some wind farms.
WARNING aviation content.
One has been in work for nearly a decade, and had to overcome interference with radar, ATC, and safe training at a Navy pilot training base nearby. Last I had heard, most of those issues had been figured out.
WARNING end of aviation content
It's never simple, but progress eventually gets made.
Also,
Quote:
viable alternatives to fossil fuels
for electricity has been available for 50 years. It's called nuclear power. Hmm, you can thank our greenie little friends and some politicians for the stunted growth of that alternative to fossil fuels for power generation.


(Agree with you on the jet fuel point you made).
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Old 8th Aug 2016, 19:20   #28 (permalink)
 
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for electricity has been available for 50 years. It's called nuclear power. Hmm, you can thank our greenie little friends and some politicians for the stunted growth of that alternative to fossil fuels for power generation.
Is that statement translated from Farsi?

Iran has been trying to break free from American-style dependence on Texas Black Gold for forty years!
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Old 8th Aug 2016, 19:24   #29 (permalink)
 
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I put more fossil fuels back into the grid via solar power than my household uses in electricity and petroleum per annum by a reasonable margin.
Quote:
bet you haven't taken into account all the fossil fuel used on your behalf by government, local authorities, businesses, service providers etc.
Who the hell tries to add gumment energy consumption to household energy consumption when measuring how much solar/wind energy the household uploads against energy downloaded from the grid.

Get real!
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Old 8th Aug 2016, 20:04   #30 (permalink)
 
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Sorry, your 'memory' isn't correct. 'Widely discredited'? Maybe by the Gas and Oil corporations, but not by anyone else. Watch the doco.
You believe everything your told by one guy but none of the many people telling you he was wrong.

That seems like rational thinking.

Instead of watching some idiotic documentary that is aimed at shocking people incapable of absorbing technical data, why not read up on some actual facts.

Finding the previous thread on here would be a good start.
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Old 8th Aug 2016, 20:24   #31 (permalink)
 
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I was told that wind turbines, solar panels et al never produce the energy in their lifetime that it took to convert them from minerals in the earth to what they are now.
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Old 8th Aug 2016, 20:27   #32 (permalink)
 
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Not to mention maintaining them (especially when out at sea) and driving them around when there is no wind to protect the bearing.
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Old 8th Aug 2016, 20:35   #33 (permalink)
 
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I was told that wind turbines, solar panels et al never produce the energy in their lifetime that it took to convert them from minerals in the earth to what they are now.
Were you ever told the same thing about oil?
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Old 8th Aug 2016, 21:26   #34 (permalink)
 
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At the moment, one of the key advantages of petroleum based energy products is the combination of portability and energy density per unit volume. (Not to mention the flexible range of products). At the moment, alternatives run into trouble with portability due to weight/volume per unit energy as most alternatives first produce electrical energy.
Will this change? We'll see.
Will this change soon? Probably not.


37 years ago, we did a small research project (my last year, engineering degree) about comparing energy from solar panels on satellites in space, from geothermal, and from tidal energy. each of them had their appeal, and each of them had potential for resolving some energy requirements. Each also had/has drawbacks. There's no free lunch.
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Old 8th Aug 2016, 21:59   #35 (permalink)
 
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Originally Posted by Lonewolf_50 View Post
At the moment, one of the key advantages of petroleum based energy products is the combination of portability and energy density per unit volume. (Not to mention the flexible range of products). At the moment, alternatives run into trouble with portability due to weight/volume per unit energy as most alternatives first produce electrical energy.
Will this change? We'll see.
Will this change soon? Probably not.


37 years ago, we did a small research project (my last year, engineering degree) about comparing energy from solar panels on satellites in space, from geothermal, and from tidal energy. each of them had their appeal, and each of them had potential for resolving some energy requirements. Each also had/has drawbacks. There's no free lunch.
And if one is honest and talk to the real engineers (not scary video folks) actually involved, they will tell you that all the touchy, feel good , consumer roof top solar installations are a pure waste of time.
The infrastructure to support the ability to "sell" excess power back to the utility consumes and costs more material/manpower/emissions than can ever be recouped.

Solar and wind require economies of scale to be truly effective, couple those with effective distribution and you may have something, not much, but something.
All you folks that prattle on about savings are costing others who don't share the habit.
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Old 9th Aug 2016, 00:55   #36 (permalink)
 
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The following comes from the Australian Financial Review newspaper, online it hides behind a wall.
Quote:
South Australia intervenes in electricity market as prices hit $14,000MWh

Turmoil in South Australia’s heavily wind-reliant electricity market has forced the state government to plead with the owner of a mothballed gas-fired power station to turn it back on.

The emergency measures are needed to ease punishing costs for South Australian industry as National Electricity Market (NEM) prices in the state have frequently surged above $1000 a megawatt hour this month and at one point on Tuesday hit the $14,000MWh maximum price.

Complaints from business about the extreme prices – in normal times they are below $100 – prompted the state government to ask energy company ENGIE to switch its mothballed Pelican Point gas power station back on.

The extraordinary intervention – first foreshadowed in December when the government of premier Jay Weatherill hosted an energy crisis meeting – comes as electricity prices soar to near record levels across the nation.

It also comes as the wider national energy market is in upheaval. Gas prices are surging thanks to a brutal cold snap in the southeast that means electricity price relief from bringing more gas generation back into service could be limited.

Cold weather and the closure of South Australia’s Northern and Playford coal-fired power stations as wind provides an increasing share of the state’s power have combined to send NEM prices to their highest average levels since the 2007 drought.

“A planned outage of the Heywood Interconnector to Victoria, coupled with higher than expected gas prices and severe weather conditions have contributed to large-scale price volatility in the energy spot market in recent days,” Mr Koutsantonis said.

“The failure in the energy market has led the Government to ask ENGIE, the owner of Pelican Point Power Station, to run the plant for a short period, providing 239MW of additional supply into the energy market.

“It is believed the increased base-load supply from the previously mothballed plant will lead to improved system security.”
Not all sweetness and light with renewables, price increase from $100 to $14,000 in order to buy in coal produced power from interstate. Way to go on the business and employment front. The state is already the country's basket case.

Further article.

http://www.abc.net.au/worldtoday/con...6/s4500493.htm
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Old 9th Aug 2016, 08:30   #37 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cazalet33 View Post
Who the hell tries to add gumment energy consumption to household energy consumption when measuring how much solar/wind energy the household uploads against energy downloaded from the grid.

Get real!
Trying to isolate household energy consumption as a measure of overall consumption is just obfuscation by the zealots. Just like those with their poisonous Prius and toxic Tesla signalling their virtue, while leaving a whiff of hypocrisy in their wake.

As for getting real, the concept is a stranger to you.
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Old 9th Aug 2016, 09:11   #38 (permalink)
 
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Who is trying to "isolate" overall consumption?

We can do nothing about the goverment's sillinesses. What we can do is reduce the damage that we are doing to the planet's atmosphere.

Those of us who produce more domestic energy than we consume are doing the right thing, even though we have to import electricity sometimes from a grid which is partly powered by the idiocy of burning hydrocarbons to make wiggly Amps.

Don't blame us good citizens for government silliness. We are doing a better job of living an ecofriendly lifestyle than any government of Britain ever has.
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Old 9th Aug 2016, 11:47   #39 (permalink)
 
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Were you ever told the same thing about oil?
No. I do know from experience; for example.

The Forties Field was discovered in 1970. The first oil was produced in 1975 when the pipeline was started by HM the Queen. In 1979 it was producing at 500,000 barrels per day. It was expected to last for only thirty years so that was the life expectancy of the platforms. It continued past that and in 2009 the reserves were estimated at 4.2 billion barrels.

BP, the original owners, sold it and in a short time Apache found another 800,000 million barrels, giving it a further twenty years life.

Stories like that are being repeated all over the world with improved techniques discovering reserves that were previously unknown. You double the reserves, you almost halve the costs.

Some of us can remember the tearing of sackcloth and the gnashing of teeth in the early seventies when the BBC was sagely informing us that the world was going to run out of oil by the end of the century.
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Old 9th Aug 2016, 12:05   #40 (permalink)
 
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As someone who "studied" Sociology rather than Science/Engineering, I think I am allowed a mis-read of an earlier post.
My mis-read was that someone was looking to use Tidal power for their space shuttle.
It is JB, after all.
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