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Old 29th Dec 2012, 18:31   #21 (permalink)
 
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The African can do anything any non African can do, anytime, anyplace given the same opportunities as anyone else. African descendants within the United States and other western nations have proven that without a doubt. Itís racist to blame the African for ďchasing outĒ the white colonists as causing their own detriment. The White colonialists simply used the African for cheep labor, when they could get away with it, pretty much as slaves within their own land. They didnít seriously try to educate them, nor seriously try to unite the tribes. In general, the whites simply took over and then took everything for themselves doing everything they could to prevent the African from gaining any real power. Even so, some African nations are growing in spite of their oppressed history, with the help of conscientious western help. Civilization clings by a string of hope on the dark continent and we can thank the charitable in heart and spirit for it.

So who is selling all these weapons to arm African rebels, anarchists, and, crooks? Africans donít manufacture these weapons. White people and Asians do. Entire regions flush with military weapons. Ships and aircraft bring more everyday or otherwise they would have ran out of gunsín amo long ago. Whites and Asian capitalist entrepreneurs without shame, that rape Africa of their natural resources, supply these weapons. We all know this!

These White and Asian animals create these ragged proxy armies and encourage them to be ruthless. These so called human beings lead these simple Africans to their own demise and they do it for the money they can get by harvesting African natural resources!

Bend the African to your will, keep them poor, uneducated, weak, powerless and you can control them enough to take what you want. All the national leaders of the world know this. Some even participate. Indirectly, through the corporations that buy illicit African resources and by the governments that turn a blind eye, we all contribute to these slaughter fests and hellish hidden slave labor camps. We contribute to the hell when we buy products made by unregulated resources taken from Africa. We are the quasi ignorant enabling masses, the consumer. Our leaders and certainly the vast world of business endeavor are knowingly complicit to this black holocaust. In the end it is the White man and the Asian that are the powerful puppet masters in a world where the weakest are to be preyed upon for profit. So lets all not try to find excuses not to do something, but rather beseech our better angels to care. At least care. In Godís name care.
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Old 29th Dec 2012, 19:35   #22 (permalink)
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Every African nation is sovereign and has been for at least a generation.

There's something to the notion that continuing aid stifles economic development by undermining natural incentives.

While such as Temp Spike would see any international trade with Africa as a form of developed world exploitation, the reality is African nations make their own rules and those who trade with them comply. No one has their thumb on Africans except Africans, themselves.
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Old 29th Dec 2012, 20:30   #23 (permalink)
 
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jesus H, temp spike you dont half talk some rot.

Quote:
Africans donít manufacture these weapons. White people and Asians do. Entire regions flush with military weapons. Ships and aircraft bring more everyday or otherwise they would have ran out of gunsín amo long ago. Whites and Asian capitalist entrepreneurs without shame, that rape Africa of their natural resources, supply these weapons.

and where does the money come from that despots purchase their toys, it certainly isnt sold on lay-away.

corruption is endemic. the despot screws the people over, to replaced by a leader dedicated to overthrow the despot and free the people, only to become distracted by glittery, shiney things and so becomes a dictator himself.

rinse and repeat.

it's laugable how much money the feckless dictators spend on their own toys while their people starve. while zimbabweans starve, grace mugabe heads off in an air zim 767 and packs ot full of shopping bags to return to harare, and descends into FVHA while people below die of cholera.


what about equatorial guinea..

- Poverty headcount ratio at national poverty line (% of population). 76.8% 2006

"The son of one of West Africa's longest-ruling dictators has commissioned the building of a luxury superyacht for himself worth $380 million -- almost three times more than his country spends annually on health and education for its impoverished people, an anti-corruption group said today.

Teodorin Obiang, the 41-year-old son of Equatorial Guinea's dictator, is the agriculture minister in his father's government but spends much of his time in California, with a $35 million mansion in Malibu, a fleet of luxury cars and a private jet. His government salary is $6,799 a month -- making him certainly comfortable by U.S. standards but extremely wealthy compared with others in his home country. But even on that salary, it would still take him 4,600 years to pay for the luxury yacht he's ordered"

he also spent 5.7m yes million.... on wine..

315m on cars from 2004 to 2011

38m on a gulfstream

$30m on paintings by artists such as Degas, Renoir, Gauguin and Matisse

In pictures: Teodorin Obiang’s alleged spree - FT.com

President Teodoro Obiang appoints son as Vice-President despite his lavish life style - Welcome to The Voice News Magazine

etc etc

you should read The Africa House, by Christina Lamb

Last edited by stuckgear; 29th Dec 2012 at 20:32.
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Old 29th Dec 2012, 20:45   #24 (permalink)
 
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BenThere

You are Wrong. I would encourage trade with ďsovereignĒ African nations, but with conditions. It is those business entities that inhibit international regulation, inspections, and, enforcement that cause the death of so many. Not to mention crushing development. Money, to re-elect sympathetic politicians, whatever party, by those that have continued for decades the rape of African natural resources is exactly the cause of this catastrophe. It is NOT productive to find every little fault with AID agencies and charity organizations though they indeed need to be watched also. You Ben, have nothing to lose by encouraging better law regarding African trade and AID.
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Old 29th Dec 2012, 20:58   #25 (permalink)
 
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Stuckgear...

Development and education is the enemy of corruption. Require international law and inspections as a requirement for trade. I agree that the UN is part of the problem but it can also be part of the solution, IF first world powers get serious.

You cut off the money going to African resource purchase through say, "uncertified brokers", and enforce such international law. Then you can/will force African governments to work against internal corruption. It's all about the money and they are not stupid, (in most cases).

Can't be done overnight but it can be done. Just turning your back and throwing up your hands is tantamount to murder. Like I said, at least care. Look for ways to help, not criticize the people of Africa in broad general terms. A little of your thinking power toward good is all that it takes.
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Old 30th Dec 2012, 06:56   #26 (permalink)
 
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The point you miss is that tribalism, corruption, and domination are the way of life for Africans, and nothing we can do can change it. We can rearrange deck chairs on the Titanic, we can depose dictators, we can send money to where we think it is needed directly, but sooner or later, they will revert to their way of life. We can call it savagery, and by our standards that is what it seems, but for them, it's normal.

The history of Africa is littered with some thoroughly evil dictators and despots, Teodoro Obiang is just one. Robert Mugabe, Milton Obote, Idi Amin, Jean Fidel Boukassa, to name a few, and there are others waiting in the wings to take over from the current ones. Look at Zuma, he is as evil and corrupt as any others and it is only due to the checks and balances in the system that he has not totally destroyed the vestiges of democracy in SA, although it's heading that way.

As for 'charities' many of the people involved in them are self-serving hypocrites. A company I worked for used to handle the travel accounts of a couple of charities operating in Africa and their top staff used to routinely travel First Class. There was one particularly unpleasant woman we dealt with whom I asked how she felt about sitting in an armchair 39,000 feet above people who were dying of disease, thirst and hunger whilst she stuffed her face with foie gras and champagne and caviar paid for by money that donors thought was going to alleviate poverty in Africa. Her answer : "I don't think about it."
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Old 30th Dec 2012, 07:46   #27 (permalink)
 
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If Mugabe hadn't chased out the white faremrs and expropiated the land for his close associates, Zimbabwe would still be the 'bread basket' of Africa. Not only did he chase out the white farmers, but also the skilled African staff who worked the farms, thinking the ZANU PF thugs could run the farms....
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Old 30th Dec 2012, 07:56   #28 (permalink)
 
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@TempSpike

Quote:
Can't be done overnight but it can be done. Just turning your back and throwing up your hands is tantamount to murder. Like I said, at least care. Look for ways to help, not criticize the people of Africa in broad general terms. A little of your thinking power toward good is all that it takes.
As for time, aid has been significant for what , 50 years and overall things have deteriorated immensely : corruption has reached crazy levels. The leader is no longer satisfied with a farm, he now wants trophy properties in Europe, the US and - this was new to me - a yacht worthy of a Saudi prince.

Quote:
They didnít seriously try to educate them, nor seriously try to unite the tribes.
If you are talking about under colonial rule, I am unsure about the first part, but vast amounts donated since. As for uniting the tribes, I am astonished you make such a suggestion: that for me seems like a task for the next five hundred years as well as providing another "reason" for colonialists to be criticised ( and recompense sought ) for trying to destroy African society and impose European civilisation.

As for charities, some years back I used to contribute monthly to a charity that used volunteer doctors/nurses in their holidays to perform cataract operations. I chose this carefully as it seemed to me that $20 for the op would transform an individual's life and was therefore a huge benefit for a small sum and better than spreading the same sum very thinly.

Over the years I received a huge amount of marketing material - probably monthly- from this charity asking me to increase my donations. I replied saying that I had made my donation dependent on my circumstances and they should stop the useless, wasteful flow of leaflets etc. When it didn't stop , I asked them to tell me how much of their income was spent on salaries, marketing etc - no reply

I steadily got the impression-rightly/wrongly - that the charity had evolved like a normal company and its aim was to perpetuate itself and the "aid-side" was its marketing-tool to do this i.e. had become subordinate to the company itself and so I cancelled my regular donation. The impression about the self-perpetuating comapny was helped by some TV programmes I saw about charities, how much their field-workers and executives earned and the normal living-conditions/expenses ( high ! ) of field-workers.
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Old 30th Dec 2012, 08:09   #29 (permalink)
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As I've had a lifelong relationship with Detroit, I find the parallels between the fates of Detroit and Zimbabwe, and see it coming in S. Africa, fascinating.

Once Detroit elected Mayor Coleman Young, a politician whose fuel was anger and retribution, whites lost all access to power, were vilified, and left. Those left behind, thinking it was their city now, never recognized their loss, even until today.

Economically, Detroit was once on a scale equivalent to S. Africa. Today it is a bleeding, hopeless, dieing pox.

Last edited by BenThere; 30th Dec 2012 at 08:09.
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Old 30th Dec 2012, 10:47   #30 (permalink)
 
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Is it simplistic to suggest that "foreign relations" should work the same way one treats ones neighbours in a street. Decent self-respecting families get treated that way, hooligans get ignored, people asking for help get it - once - if it works they get it again if they ask, if it doesn't you don't bother next time.

Of course to get back to the original poster, that means the whole of Africa gets written off right now. No more aid, no more help and no more - ESPECIALLY - weapon sales.

Disclaimer and Statement of Intent: I must say the Maroccans and Algerians I've had doing work on my house have all been nice, respectful, hard-working chaps and its been a pleasure to share a cup of tea and a joke with them.

Last edited by OFSO; 30th Dec 2012 at 10:48.
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Old 30th Dec 2012, 10:55   #31 (permalink)
 
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Africa would be a lot healthier if the British National Health Service did not suck all the medical expertise out of it. The second largest civilian employer in the world is full of recently qualified doctors and nurses from Africa and Asia and they are here to stay.

As the Health Minister for Malawi said recently. "There are more Malawian doctors in Manchester than there are in Malawi."
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Old 30th Dec 2012, 11:58   #32 (permalink)
 
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Strange that in proportion, more foreign trained doctors are struck off in the UK than home grown ones.
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Old 30th Dec 2012, 12:36   #33 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
Development and education is the enemy of corruption
Temp Spike, indeed it is.

that's why the african despots keep their people in ignorance and undeveloped.

that's why the likes of Malema gain such a following, and it serves the purposes of the dictators and wannabe dictators, dumb and poor. much like the left of center politics in the west.. the more educated and developed, the less the power to cement the route to riches.

welcome to the real world.




give a man a fish and he'll feed his family for day, give a man a rod and lose a voter.

Last edited by stuckgear; 30th Dec 2012 at 12:41.
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Old 30th Dec 2012, 12:39   #34 (permalink)
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International Aid: A mechanism for transferring money from the poor in rich countries to the rich in poor countries.
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Old 30th Dec 2012, 12:47   #35 (permalink)
 
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Africa would be a lot healthier if the British National Health Service did not suck all the medical expertise out of it. The second largest civilian employer in the world is full of recently qualified doctors and nurses from Africa and Asia and they are here to stay.

As the Health Minister for Malawi said recently. "There are more Malawian doctors in Manchester than there are in Malawi."
which is sophistry and again more complaining that the west is at fault.

you do know that to become a doctor in the UK, a diploma from a community college in Lubumbashi doesn't quite get you into being a reg.. or even a GP.. you still have to put in the education and the time/experience required.. heck, that Lumbumbashi community college diploma wont even get you in as an HCA.
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Old 30th Dec 2012, 12:47   #36 (permalink)
 
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that's why the african despots keep their people in ignorance and undeveloped
The standard of education in South Africa has dropped significantly since it became a 'democracy' in 1994, with decent education being further out of reach of more people than before.

Quote:
I must say the Maroccans and Algerians I've had doing work on my house have all been nice, respectful, hard-working chaps and its been a pleasure to share a cup of tea and a joke with them.
Many Africans are nice hard working people, decent, warm, friendly, and fun. The sad reality is that when you give them power or substantial amounts of money it perverts them ,and in the absence of opposition and controls, the results become tragic to a greater extent than in the West. Moroccans and Algerians anyway are not Africans in the true sense, nor are any of the other Mediterranean bordering countries.

Last edited by Tableview; 30th Dec 2012 at 13:00.
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Old 30th Dec 2012, 13:14   #37 (permalink)
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Haile Selassie to you also my old friend ORAC.

The death penalty: A mechanism for transferring accumulated guilt from "the righteous" in many countries which have it. To the evil-doers (80% or greater which are increasingly found to be innocent in USA's "death row"). What price (in)justice, aid to Africa or otherwise?

Every $100 million paid out to Africa's dictators or crooked politicians pays out 10 or even 100 fold back to our 1st World economies. That won't begin to change until all the countries which operate the financial institutions which facilitate these transfers are brought under control. The 1st step will be to investigate in-depth, and hopefully remove all our elected politicians who engage in this industry, which is what it is. I wouldn't hold my breath, few countries, whether France or the UK, are going to multiply x10 the resources of their tax inspectors or resources to find out if there's anything at all to be found in their own chicken coops.

Try to bear in mind that for every single crooked African politician, there are probably at least 10 more individuals and/or companies in Europe or elsewhere who're also intimately involved behind the scenes. With more or less full-backing from their own governments.

Last edited by airship; 30th Dec 2012 at 13:21.
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Old 30th Dec 2012, 13:53   #38 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
Every $100 million paid out to Africa's dictators or crooked politicians pays out 10 or even 100 fold back to our 1st World economies
hang on.. so you are saying that aid recieving countries have discovered a way multiplying money. Pure Alchemy !

well if so then why are they inherently aid recieiving coutries then?

so the premise doesnt in fact follow.

Quote:
Try to bear in mind that for every single crooked African politician, there are probably at least 10 more individuals and/or companies in Europe or elsewhere who're also intimately involved behind the scenes.
so, what you are saying, is that European politicians are corrupting the african dictators? in effect that, despotic dictators that murder en-mass large swathes of thier own populace are in fact the victims?


your argument there kind of falls even with one example.. mugabe and zimbabwe.

Last edited by stuckgear; 30th Dec 2012 at 13:55.
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Old 30th Dec 2012, 14:37   #39 (permalink)
 
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I don't follow your argument, airship. Please could you explain it a bit more?
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Old 30th Dec 2012, 17:08   #40 (permalink)
 
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As the Health Minister for Malawi said recently. "There are more Malawian doctors in Manchester than there are in Malawi."
Perhaps a visit to Malawi would explain that. When I visited, there was only one Malawian obstetrician in the largest facility in Lilongwe. The previous night there had been 35 deliveries. She told me she didn't know how long she would be able to continue there.

With so little resources devoted to health care, it is no wonder their staff mostly moves on.
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