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Old 10th Dec 2011, 07:13   #81 (permalink)
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
 
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Look for some quote on internet to reassure yourself if you like, it doesn't change the fact that one day or an other you will have to wake up and understand that outside the little PPRuNe community where we can all try to convince KAG of the insanity of Eurozone and the farce that EU is, there is a real world out there that is not waiting for your comments and quotes.
Totally agree, let the market decide.
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Old 10th Dec 2011, 07:27   #82 (permalink)
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Irish Times: Concern mounts that euro zone 'firewall' plan may not end turmoil

A DRASTIC new plan to settle the debt crisis triggered anxiety in Brussels as diplomats questioned the feasibility of the initiative and officials expressed anxiety that a renewed bid to boost Europe’s “firewall” against market turmoil might fall short.

The move to create an international treaty outside EU law to toughen economic surveillance in the euro zone presents a threat to the Government as it may lead to a referendum.

Taoiseach Enda Kenny declined to express a view on the likelihood of a vote and insisted he would await the advice of Attorney General Máire Whelan. However, Minister of State for European Affairs Lucinda Creighton said there was a 50-50 prospect of a referendum.

Despite repeated efforts to put a positive slant on the new deal, high- level euro zone sources expressed scepticism. Saying the plan to create a non-EU structure to oversee EU budget rules was fraught with legal uncertainty and numerous other drawbacks, the sources said it was far from clear that the scheme would work..........

The Government fears defeat in any referendum, which would be required if the treaty proposal was deemed to alter the essential scope or objectives of the EU communities.

A high-level EU source who was deeply involved in preparations for the summit said Irish officials repeatedly argued against treaty change, saying any vote would be doomed to rejection.........
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Old 10th Dec 2011, 07:36   #83 (permalink)
 
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In my experience as regards the EU, Brits come in two or more varieties:
Those who think the EU & Euro world is heading for chaos & disaster. So they wish to opt out and recreate 'Gt Britain' based on a nostalgic 1940s fantasy.
Those who share the same concerns about the EU, but think that disaster could be avoided. So a path to an age of peace and harmony for all Europeans is possible if thinking & attitudes can be changed.
My take on this is that the money manipulators have everyone by the throat and are actively stirring the zenophobic chaos to their own advantage.
Sometimes a truth when seen for the first time is too simple and too obvious and it is hard to understand why we have not noticed or suspected what is going on. Fact is; hardly any ordinary people and less than a handful of politicians understand money. But all investment bankers/hedge fund managers/ commodities brokers/defence contractors/corporate financiers/ and the inhabitants of that cesspit of financial criminality “the City of London” do understand money. They understand it because they are CREATING IT OUT OF NOTHING … a kind of confidence trick hinted at by the governor of the Bank of England who politely refers to the ‘finance industry’ as dealers in alchemy.
Ben Dyson the creator of the 'Positive Money' campaining group, has shown by lecturing and by videos how money is misused. A prosperous and healthy country is one where people grow enough food and make enough useful things to trade with others so as to maintain a good life style for all. Sadly the UK can only feed 40% of its population, has given up making useful things, and depends on manipulation of money in London in order to pay for necessities like food.
The more people understand money the more pressure can be put on politicians to change the banking system, and get the country back to an economy based on making useful things and growing food.
Please have a look at Ben’s Positive Money website, and spread that understanding of money to everyone. www.positivemoney.org.uk
Right now I am trying to do just that with my family … it’s difficult to get through to a French alternative therapist heavily into native American stuff, and a 14 year old Anglo-French computer geek, but worth a try!
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Old 10th Dec 2011, 07:57   #84 (permalink)
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The Euro can be saved - but it depends on Germany allowing the ECB to act as a treasury and turn on the presses with a vengeance and introduce full blown QE. The tragedy is that they've turned a minor problem into an existentialist crisis.

The last 24 hours have been a disaster both for the UK and Europe. Both needless - and useless. There are no winners here.

FT: Near-term risk to peripheral states remains

Amid all the heated speculation about the European Union summit’s impact on Europe’s economic future and Britain’s role in it, traders are asking a more mundane question: “Has it done enough to get us through to Christmas?” Their answer: probably not.

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Old 10th Dec 2011, 08:11   #85 (permalink)
 
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The problem with the EU experiment is that nobody actually knows what the end result is supposed to be. "Peace, harmony and prosperity" is a lovely thought and nobody in their right mind can reasonably disagree with it but there have never been any metrics or targets specified. How do we know if/when it has worked? The original rules on how to get there have been ignored and nobody even bothered to comment.

Those in power are behaving like the Underpants Gnomes crossed with ostriches and keep making pronouncements but not following up with real action. The "deal" that Dave has refused involved little more than restating a (slightly stricter) version of the Euro joining criteria that were fiddled, ignored and discarded by most participants before it even began. What makes them think the rules will be followed now?

There is also a fundamental inconsistency in the way that different bits of the EU machine are operating. Merkozy is saying that budgets must be balanced (from a position of vast overspending) while the Commission is demanding large increases in funding...to come from the individual countries that "must" cut back on spending. Come on, guys.

Unless and until they can all sing from the same hymnbook, with unambiguous words that everyone concerned will follow, nothing is going to change.

Business (the people who make the money) and government (the people who spend the money) have opposing views on how to behave in a crisis. The governments are screaming for growth, so that they have more tax money to spend themselves out of this hole. Business is retrenching and consolidating because a smaller slice of a real pie is better than a growing slice of an imaginery bigger pie and eating is always preferable to starving. If ministers were paid by results they would all have been sacked (and starved) a long time ago.
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Old 10th Dec 2011, 08:41   #86 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vee-tail-1 View Post
In my experience as regards the EU, Brits come in two or more varieties:
Those who think the EU & Euro world is heading for chaos & disaster. So they wish to opt out and recreate 'Gt Britain' based on a nostalgic 1940s fantasy.
Those who share the same concerns about the EU, but think that disaster could be avoided. So a path to an age of peace and harmony for all Europeans is possible if thinking & attitudes can be changed.
Or to paraphrase:

There are two sorts of people:
- idiots who don't agree with me
- clever people who do
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Old 10th Dec 2011, 09:00   #87 (permalink)
 
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Originally Posted by flyingfemme View Post
The "deal" that Dave has refused involved little more than restating a (slightly stricter) version of the Euro joining criteria that were fiddled, ignored and discarded by most participants before it even began. What makes them think the rules will be followed now?
Absolutely 100% spot on.
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Old 10th Dec 2011, 09:35   #88 (permalink)
 
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What seems to be happening is that the core countries of the Eurozone are now insisting that the fiscal criteria which should have been in place from the inception of this ill-conceived project in order to make it work are now adhered to. Thus they are shutting the stable door after the horse has bolted.

The irony is that had those criteria been in place and enforced at the beginning, the Euro would never have been born and all the agony we are now seeing could have been avoided.

Either way, its demise, at least in its present form, has to be imminent.

Those who say otherwise will never see it any way other than as they want to see it, which makes them blinkered bigots.

Norway and Switzerland have done rather well without the EUSSR or the Euro. If the UK distances itself from it, so much the better. For once 'Dave' has shown himself to have some spine, although my guess is that he will back down after some posturing.
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Old 10th Dec 2011, 09:41   #89 (permalink)
 
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The other string of piss would have probably not only said yes but offered them all a BJ as well.
Well done Dave
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Old 10th Dec 2011, 10:34   #90 (permalink)
 
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I am with you KAG
Cameron is no Churchill ... just a young well spoken but incompetent upper class twit. He is the leader of the British Conservative party which represents what remains of the English landed gentry and the English right wing middle class. They live in 'Gt Britain' a nostalgic fantasy world of the 1930s to 1940s. Unfortunately for us Euro-Brits who live in the real world, there are many Conservatives in the 'Financial Industry' and media. It is the corrupt practices of this so called 'financial industry' that has caused much of the present monetary crisis. Also the predominance of Conservative controlled or financed right leaning British newspapers helps to sway public opinion here.
As an ex pat Englishman living in Wales my greatest fear is that the UK will break up. However Wales & Scotland might then join the revived Euro leaving the English to rot in their 1940s fantasyland.
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Old 10th Dec 2011, 10:41   #91 (permalink)
 
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I really don't understand why everybody is talking as if "The New Plan " is settled and locked down and will be implemented. All we have so far is 26 politicians saying 'yes" or "yes maybe"

How many other "breakthrough proposals " from "last-chance" summits have unravelled just a few days later under detailled legal or political scrutiny ?

I also have to wonder at Merkel's stance because it was only in September that the German Constitutional Court ( BVG) ruled , amongst other things,that the Bundestag had sole power over the German budget and this was inviolable unless there was a 2/3 majority of the German people to change the constitution ( Grundgesetz ). Since I don't think there has been a single attempt at change since its adoption in 1949 (?), the chances of this happening are diminishingly small.

The BVG enjoys both enormous respect and the final say on constitutional matters . It cannot be ignored or over-ruled.

It has already said that it cannot be over-ruled on constitutional matters by any European court, thus knocking that little Brussels trick on the head.

So having said that, I am totally puzzled at the proposal Merkel fought for because ( I believe ) it specifically says that under given circumstances , decision-making power will be taken away from the national government and subjected to approval from some other body.

Anybody help me in my confusion ?

Last edited by AlpineSkier; 10th Dec 2011 at 11:05.
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Old 10th Dec 2011, 10:47   #92 (permalink)
 
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I think hibernation is called for until all this cr*p is sorted out.
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Old 10th Dec 2011, 11:15   #93 (permalink)
 
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I think hibernation is called for until all this cr*p is sorted out.
Then you might as well die as it will never be sorted out!
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Old 10th Dec 2011, 11:45   #94 (permalink)
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Triple orgasms all round then at the Mail / Excess and Con Clubs ( various ) across the UK.....well done Dave " wer're all in this together"....well we could be very soon, and the "little England"m fraternity may suddenly wonder as to the aroma that is prominent when we are.

Coming soon ! Gorgeous George completes the insularity with the return of the half / penny, the 3d bit sixpence and shilling pieces...... and the half crown along with the 10 shilling note

Compulsory attendance and celebration of Empire Day to follow....

OK, all of you jolly fine chaps....and you little oiks as well ! ...join in the chorus....or else !


For the confused, it is perfectly possible to be patrioic without indulging in all the jingoistic fervour associated with being English and a citizen of the UK.

Last edited by Krystal n chips; 10th Dec 2011 at 11:57.
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Old 10th Dec 2011, 12:34   #95 (permalink)
 
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@vee-tail

Quote:
As an ex pat Englishman living in Wales
Having read your post, you are living in dreamland.

Quote:
. He is the leader of the British Conservative party which represents what remains of the English landed gentry and the English right wing middle class.
How strange. I would have said he got 10 times more votes than that represents.

Quote:
corrupt practices of this so called 'financial industry' that has caused much of the present monetary crisis
Certainly involved but it was corrupt politicians spending all the money to "buy " votes with projects and policies doomed to be billion-euro money pits ( Athens Olympic stadia anyone, pensions at 50 ? ).

It was corrupt and power-seeking politicians who allowed Greece into the Euro to pander for their need to " make their mark " knowing that their budget figures were a tissue of lies.

Since these politicians were lying to us,I hold them to greater responsibility than the bankers.

K n'c

Whilst there is a lot of that around, I think there is just as much nonsense about "betraying Europe", "sacrificing the European ideal to protect the banks ".

I do however feel that it was right to slap this idea in the face and since it currently looks like 26 : 1, then it is not unsurprising that similes about "standing alone" etc are being used.
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Old 10th Dec 2011, 13:56   #96 (permalink)
 
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ComRes Poll

The deal signed by the eurozone countries still faces huge hurdles, because of simmering tensions between the member states – and growing disenchantment within their own borders.

A poll last night showed that only a third of French people believed that their country should stay in the euro indefinitely. The situation in Germany was scarcely better with support for staying in the single currency long-term standing at just 41 per cent.

The figures were revealed in a ComRes survey for CNN last night. It shows how the leaders pressing for closer integration are dangerously out of touch with their own people.

The poll was conducted across seven eurozone countries. It also found that only 38 per cent in Greece and 37 per cent in Ireland and Portugal wanted to remain in the euro.

I haven't seen the figures for Spain (and of course Catalunia is as usual ignored despite being the motor for the rest of Spain) but my friends, both locals and ex-pats, espress the sentiment that leaving the euro is the only way to get the Iberian Peninsular out of the doldrums.
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Old 10th Dec 2011, 14:02   #97 (permalink)
 
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I do however feel that it was right to slap this idea in the face and since it currently looks like 26 : 1, then it is not unsurprising that similes about "standing alone" etc are being used.
While Britain vetoed an EU treaty change on measures to resolve the eurozone debt crisis. Hungary also said it would not take part and Sweden and the Czech Republic said they would have to go back to their own government before making a decision.
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Old 10th Dec 2011, 14:30   #98 (permalink)
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Vee tail 1:
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Also the predominance of Conservative controlled or financed right leaning British newspapers helps to sway public opinion here.
True.





Cameron wants to save the City, I can understand that.

But don't tell us that not taxing the finance and speculation (wich means more rich and more poor, destroying the middle class) is the way to go.

The most part of Europe said NO to UK. UK is getting closer to what is part of the problem: the modern bank and finance with its associated speculation, because that's UK speciality, let's not get shy and look at the truth directly.

Extremely dangerous game if you ask me. And since friday, it seems I am not the only one to think like that.

Our world is changing, nothing new about that. During the crisis the number of rich people has increased, and today in the middle of the debt crisis and when millions of people have lost their job, the number of rich people in the world has never been that high in our entire history. Debt crisis? Not for everybody apparently...

The City is one of the place where this kind of new people are encouraged, the kind that make more money betting with somebody else's money than getting a real job.

Protecting it will increase the unbalance, when in Europe main purpose is peace, fairness, social justice. Justice needs rules, true, a world without regulation is called a jungle.

Cameron, who has been playing with euroscepticism for political purpose in addition to have the unofficial mandat to protect the City, (for obvious economical reasons), found himself stuck, and fell down in a trap he built himself in Brussels.

Since the begining of Europe and the UK "NO NO NO" (special, opt out, exception, rabat and others...) policy towards it, UK became the third economy among EU countries, and if we observe the last past 5 years it might one day becomes the 4 th one behind Italy, fighting with Spain for the 5 position. So it’s not an economic power anymore, but still hope to keep the illusion of its political one, illusion that has became even more evasive since Friday morning.

Europe is creating something, of course it involves crisis and messy situations, but Europe is at work.

Next to it, UK stands and comments, tells what's wrong, makes fun of the actors like a bored and proud old curious person watching workers in the street. That's what has became its main political platform.

While we are all looking at Portugal, Spain or Greece, the real danger comes from UK (the highest total debt rate per person in the world) that doesn't want to understand how the 21st century works and doesn't want to prepare for the future, too busy commenting about the others’ action.

UK and his great German Queen deserve better than that, more than an eurosceptic and negative attitude slaved to the finance world as a life leitmotiv. I trust english people to be smarter than Cameron and get out of the hole he is proudly digging.
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Old 10th Dec 2011, 14:33   #99 (permalink)
 
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some rant there mr kag i suggest you sit in the corner for a while and relax.

gs
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Old 10th Dec 2011, 14:42   #100 (permalink)
 
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I'd just like to say that making new 10/- notes will not be required.

The £5 note is now about equal in value. Or even slightly LESS.
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