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Old 8th Dec 2011, 12:32   #41 (permalink)
KAG
 
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You just said:
Quote:
There is NOTHING, ZIP, ZILCH, NADA in that article where the NY Times claims or asserts, posutulates of even suggests the UK is anti-EU.





Anybody reading the article can feel that UK is against Europe (EU and Eurozone), speaking about veto, about the unwilling to support the decisions and so on... But you insist in having a quote right? That's what you ask me, because you still didn't get the whole meaning, and you'd hope that taken individually there is nothing, no sentence in itself that would make us understand the general feeling, alright, here is you sentence, directly from the article:
Quote:
With much of Britain in the anti-Europe camp, the no side would surely prevail in such a vote.




But we can go further than that, tell me honestly which Eurozone country would say that today:
Quote:
He added that in rescuing the euro, there was a danger of “saving the cancer, not the patient.”
Yes that's from the same article, the one you quoted entirely. Who would say that today, and what does it mean? Cameron said it, and concerning the meaning, I am sure you have a bunch of excellent and eurosceptic reasons ready to go.


Still not convinced? Either re-read your own posts here, or there: Poll, shall UK continue to be an EU member?

Last edited by KAG; 9th Dec 2011 at 04:05.
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Old 8th Dec 2011, 13:20   #42 (permalink)
 
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I spent a few days this week in a city in the south of France which is a world heritage site bringing over three million tourists a year to stay there. Looking at the glowing displays of expensive goods in the shops, the many restaurants (and very high prices) and the spectacular Christmas street lighting it was obvious that the city is extremely wealthy. I heard not one mention of the eurozone crisis while I was there, and had the impression that with the number of visitors they get from the USA, Japan, Asia, the Middle East, etc., they really didn't give a damn. A very different place scene here, two hundred kms to the south in Spain, where business people are just about hanging on hoping that we'll revert to the peseta.

Yet another demonstration that "one size fits all" only applies to sex* and not to economies.


* although some of my esteemed colleagues will no doubt think differently.
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Old 8th Dec 2011, 13:24   #43 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
Anybody reading the article can feel that UK is against Europe (EU and Eurozone),
*YOU* flatly and clearly stated:

Quote:
the NYTimes says that UK is anti Europe
Now you're saying that it's the 'feel' of the article. So we can agree then that the article does not state that UK is anti EU or that the NY times states that the UK is anti EU in the article, but it is what *you* feel is the underlying emotion behind the article.

Sorry pal. but you are stating *your* subjective viewpoint. Which as we have determined, *YOU* are anti UK. So you are expressing *YOUR* bigotry and stating that an article clearly states something, which it does not becuase of what *YOU* feel.


It is simply impossible to have an informed discussion with a party who excerises their own bigotry; clearly states that something is said when it is not just becuase of what they feel or choose create from their own mind.

Yes, much of Britain is the Eurosceptic camp, but that matters not a jot as the political community is not. You only have to look back at the motion for a referendum in the closing days of October (we've been down this road before KAG, remember?) when 111 MP voted for a referendum and 483 voted against.

It matter not a fking jot what a pop-quiz of people in the street say, it is what the elected representative as a body vote.

Your rhetoric which you derive from your hatred of the UK and claims the UK wants to see the fail is an out and out lie. sorry pal, but it is and you view that the UK has some deep seated problem with Europeans. sorry but it does not. the Vote on EU membership is based on the socio-economic issues for the UK. That is, in essence that EU membership for the UK, right now, as it sits is not the best position for the country socio-economically.

A couple of years back, the large majority of the country was in fact pro-EU, that has changed due to the socio-economic failures within the EU itself and as above in the current circumstances the populace considers that it is not the best situation for the country. That is a failure of the EU, no-one else. It is not down to PR and promotion, but the hard facts of the current situation which has been created by the failures of the EU administration. No one else.

But again as above, that matters not a jot, as the elected representatives had made their position clear 111 vs 483.


You can quote my posts from other threads all you like. and I maintain what i stated that post of mine from another thread that you feel may bide you some 'points'.

heck i'll even repost it for you here:

Quote:
Thread title: Poll, shall UK continue to be an EU member?

No KAG,

and neither should any of the other EU members, we all have a close history much of it shared but have localised economies and influences that require smaller governing bodies to enable the best being brought forward.

Further, a dictatorial regime governing Europe is abhorrent and stands against all we in Europe have fought for over the ages.

trade agreements governing the European states, sure. non democratic governance and fiscal control ? no, non, nien.


NB: if you ask the mods nicely KAG they may be able to turn this into an actual poll.
And I stand by that. Where the EU as as administrative body, it's current economic state, it is not in the best interests of the UK to be in the EU. We would benefit from the EFTA.

that does not mean i, nor many of those eurosceptics have some 'hatred' toward the people or the countries of member states, nor am a 'little englander' et al., it simply means that it is not in the best interests of the country in its current state.

What you are doing is 'projecting' your bigotry and prejudices on others and you fail to address any points of fact so i'll repost again.

What it seems your anti-UK stance is based is on that the UK is not a Eurozone currency country and it is actively calling for firm resolve to the problems in the EUrozone, rather than just blindly ignore the problems and carry on regardless in the hope that everything might turn out OK and cede to the intelligensia that got the EU into the economic mess it is that they have the answers to sort the problem out.

They clearly do not. Otherwise the EUro would:

A.) Not have develoved into the mess it is in.
B.) Not be needing drastic measures to save it's ass and the economies of those EUrozone states
C.) Not be looking for finance to underpin it from other countries outside of the EUrozone
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Old 8th Dec 2011, 14:42   #44 (permalink)
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Quote:
The mongers of doom, more than a few days ago, were roundly predicting that the euro had only a few days to live. As I say, that was more than a few days ago. Can we have an updated projection on the same, from the same.
The people hyping up, in order to try and get a decision forced through tomorrow, were the Eurocrats in the EU, so please consider them "doom merchants".

I said they'll end up kicking the tin can further down the road. The planned fiscal union will take months to get agreed; will never work; and can't solve the fundamental problems caused by the wide gaps between the separate national economies. The inevitable result will be a split with some nations leaving the Eurozone.

The problem being that the longer it's put of, the more catastrophic the eventual split - and the intervening period being one of at best a Europe wide depression, and at worst world-wide.

Andreas Whittam Smith: Buying time won't save the single currency

Funding and democratic crises lie ahead. The euro could perhaps survive one, but not both

Euro’s fall may doom all
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Old 8th Dec 2011, 14:56   #45 (permalink)
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Ho hum - here's another one of those crazy "doom-mongers". This one claims there's only a few weeks left to save the Euro......
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Old 8th Dec 2011, 16:20   #46 (permalink)
KAG
 
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What, Euro still alive, how could it be?

Stuckgear:
Quote:
Now you're saying that it's the 'feel' of the article. So we can agree then that the article does not state that UK is anti EU or that the NY times states that the UK is anti EU in the article, but it is what *you* feel is the underlying emotion behind the article.

Sorry pal. but you are stating *your* subjective viewpoint. Which as we have determined, *YOU* are anti UK. So you are expressing *YOUR* bigotry and stating that an article clearly states something, which it does not becuase of what *YOU* feel.
Negative my friend, this sentence comes from the article itself :

Quote:
With much of Britain in the anti-Europe camp, the no side would surely prevail in such a vote.
Directly from the same article, NYTimes.
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Old 8th Dec 2011, 16:31   #47 (permalink)

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Quote:
Ho hum - here's another one of those crazy "doom-mongers". This one claims there's only a few weeks left to save the Euro......
Whilst I readily admit that the Euro is in crisis, surely you must recognise politicking when you see it !!
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Old 8th Dec 2011, 16:59   #48 (permalink)
 
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Ahh, I see.

So when someone here posts a quote from some experts who say that the Euro is doomed then they are ridiculed, yet when someone like Sarkozy or Barosso says the same then it is "politicking"......


Hmmmmmmm.........
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Old 8th Dec 2011, 17:59   #49 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
Negative my friend, this sentence comes from the article itself :
So first off you state that the article clearly states something it does not, wehn reposted in it's entirety and you are questioned on this false claim, you say that that is the 'feel' of the article, then when questioned on that, you now claim that in fact the article does state that.

I have no time or inclination to fk around with trolls.

cheers.
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Old 8th Dec 2011, 18:04   #50 (permalink)

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Ahh, I see.

So when someone here posts a quote from some experts who say that the Euro is doomed then they are ridiculed, yet when someone like Sarkozy or Barosso says the same then it is "politicking"......
Sorry, is that ORAC or Hellsbrink or ---

When someone here posts that the Euro is "doomed" or posts something similar using quotes from experts, I simply wonder why they always choose the "experts" that fit hand in glove with their own agenda. It is akin to ramming it down our collective throats

There are many differing views on where the Euro is going. It is not gone, despite what some of your "experts" expected. It is actually a work in progress.

Try and come up with something original, take a little break from your one sided, blinkered view, or perhaps just take a little break

Cheers
El G.
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Old 9th Dec 2011, 03:59   #51 (permalink)
KAG
 
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Euro must have already disappeared by now.

Stuckgear:
Quote:
So first off you state that the article clearly states something it does not, wehn reposted in it's entirety and you are questioned on this false claim, you say that that is the 'feel' of the article, then when questioned on that, you now claim that in fact the article does state that.
Negative, there is no "you now claim" ...
What I say, I say it since the first post, I speak about the acticle in its whole, and I quote 2 sentences in addition to speak about facts, have a look at my post #41:

Quote:
You just said:
Quote:
There is NOTHING, ZIP, ZILCH, NADA in that article where the NY Times claims or asserts, posutulates of even suggests the UK is anti-EU.





Anybody reading the article can feel that UK is against Europe (EU and Eurozone), speaking about veto, about the unwilling to support the decisions and so on... But you insist in having a quote right? That's what you ask me, because you still didn't get the whole meaning, and you'd hope that taken individually there is nothing, no sentence in itself that would make us understand the general feeling, alright, here is you sentence, directly from the article:
Quote:
With much of Britain in the anti-Europe camp, the no side would surely prevail in such a vote.




But we can go further than that, tell me honestly which Eurozone country would say that today:
Quote:
He added that in rescuing the euro, there was a danger of “saving the cancer, not the patient.”
Yes that's from the same article, the one you quoted entirely. Who would say that today, and what does it mean? Cameron said it, and concerning the meaning, I am sure you have a bunch of excellent and eurosceptic reasons ready to go.
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Old 9th Dec 2011, 04:08   #52 (permalink)
 
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Senor Grifo,

Thing is, though, the Euro is doomed and they are telling you the truth. It's not a matter of agenda, but acknowledgement of the bleedin' obvious. You can only deny the iron hand of economics for so long.

I give the Euro's existence until 2018, maximum, when the ghost will be given up, should we live so long.
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Old 9th Dec 2011, 04:11   #53 (permalink)
KAG
 
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Quote:
I give the Euro's existence until 2018
Bandaide, welcome to the ORACLE team of this thread.

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Old 9th Dec 2011, 04:13   #54 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
Try and come up with something original, take a little break from your one sided, blinkered view, or perhaps just take a little break
Like your one-sided, blinkered, etc?

S&P say that there is a risk of downgrading, you attack them.

Sarkozy says that the Euro, and therefore the Eurozone, is in more poop than a proctologist's finger and it's "politicking".

In the meantime, anyone reporting anything that says that the Euro is in deep doodoo or is failing (something it was doomed to do from the start as it was a completely political concept without any union across the eurozone) gets condemned as being "blinkered", and then faces your pathetic attempt at insults, whilst you refuse to take off the rose-tinted glasses and claim things are ok and that there are no real problems. Maybe, just maybe, if you read the actual reports out there instead of hanging on KAG's every word, a "man" who has so much knowledge he believes that the EU stopped wars in the 48 years before it came into existence, you would realise how perilous the situation actually is.

It won't take much for the markets to say "Enough, they've had their chance", leading the Euro to go down faster than a Richard Branson balloon. When it happens, then maybe you'll realise the folly of your stance.
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Old 9th Dec 2011, 05:58   #55 (permalink)
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Cameron blocks the rescue plan...

Result: Eurozone towards more integration, history is in motion.

Quote:
"Nous aurions préféré un accord à 27 [l'ensemble des pays de l'Union européenne], cela n'a pas été possible compte tenu de la position de nos amis britanniques", a déclaré vendredi Nicolas Sarkozy à l'issue d'une nuit de discussions lors de la première journée d'un sommet à Bruxelles. "Ce sera un traité intergouvernemental à 17, ouvert aux autres", a-t-il ajouté.
Sommet europen : accord 17 sur la zone euro - LeMonde.fr





French president video speech concerning the agreement: Britain blocks Lisbon treaty route to saving euro | Business | The Guardian
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Old 9th Dec 2011, 06:38   #56 (permalink)
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Summary of current position.

1. Any change to existing EU treaty ruled out, as commission lawyers confirmed unanimous 27 nation agreement required - and both Uk and Ireland would not agree.

2. A new treaty will be required amongst the 17 Euro states, plus others that wish to join. The resulting block will not be able to use any existing EU courts or bodies such as the EU Commission, they will need their own new bodies.

3. French estimate of when a treaty could be signed is March 2012 (which I consider vastly over-optimistic as many states, such as Ireland, Finland and the Netherlands disagree with the present plans, and some will need to hold a referendum, which is not certain to pass).

4. The ECB has, yet again, dashed any hopes of the ECB issuing bonds to support the Euro.

5. No agreements have been made to address any of the underlying fundamental debt and imbalance issues in the Eurozone.

6. Whatever new treaty is created will not be able to inflict any penalties on states which break the limits, as they won't have access to the EU bodies able to do so - it will be a toothless tiger.

I don't think the S&P downgrading is going to be long in coming.......

06.30 Ratings agency, Moody's, has this morning downgraded the debt of BNP Paribas, Societe Generale and Credit Agricole, saying their creditworthiness was being hurt by the fragile operating environment for European banks. Moody's cut its ratings on the long-term debt of BNP and Credit Agricole by one notch to Aa3, while SocGen's long-term debt was cut by one notch to A1.

Last edited by ORAC; 9th Dec 2011 at 07:48.
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Old 9th Dec 2011, 07:25   #57 (permalink)
 
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ORAC,

Ref your points 1-6, indeed, changes to the Lisbon Treaty would required and those changes are not what the signatory states signed up to.

Sarkosy is pre-empting the failure to achieve this by laying the blame at Cameron, yet six weeks ago told cameron to shut up as he had no place at the table. So in one moment Sarkosy Sarkosy is telling the World that teh UK has no place in EU discussions, then on the other lays the blame at the UK for its failure, which was cemented many years ago and is the resultant of consistent failure of the Eurozone players. And where is Herman Van Rompuy in all this ?

Perhaps the real figures behind cause of the failure of the EUro is Sarkosy and to some extent Merkel.

Quote:
others in Europe, namely ordinary people, may be experiencing the dawning realisation of what that really means. Power ebbing rapidly away from their national parliaments, towards the euro centre. Suddenly this process will start to feel like thinking the unthinkable for many.
What's on offer in Brussels is a fiscal union which represents different outcomes for different groups of countries. But both outcomes will be equally unpalatable for voters.

In Germany, and its satellites, what's being discussed will mean vast transfers of wealth south, to support the insolvent banks and governments of the Club Med countries. For voters in these places, such as Greece, Portugal and Italy, what's on the agenda is the imposition of a new set of rules which are about to change their lives irrevocably. They will be forced to become like the north as they submit their national rights to tax and spend to outside supervision by the European Commission. Comply or be punished is the highly enticing prospect.

Arriving in Brussels on Thursday, Jose Manuel Barroso, president of the European Council, said it was essential that national interests were set aside at the summit for the greater good of the single currency – a dig at David Cameron's threat to veto any EU-wide treaty rewrite that damages UK interests. But if Eurocrats such as Barroso think British national interests are proving an irritating diversion, he is fatally underestimating the power of national interests in countries from Spain to Slovakia which are about to be unleashed in the weeks and months to come as the detail of the new treaty starts to emerge.

This summit is taking place as the European banking authority demands that lenders raise more capital to stave off insolvency and Mario Draghi, president of the European Central Bank, poured cold water on hopes he would let the ECB become the lender of last resort for financially errant governments. There will be no answers from this summit, merely at best an agreement to the principle of a new treaty. It won't douse the flames in Europe, in fact it will simply fan them.
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Old 9th Dec 2011, 07:36   #58 (permalink)
 
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My opinion of Dave has risen ten points,not the first time we have stood alone agin a hostile continent.
I hope they ask Nigel Farage to give the closing speech to this conference.
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Old 9th Dec 2011, 08:05   #59 (permalink)
 
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Blimey, who'd have thought. That's really let the cat out of the bag.

And whats this about the Euro-plus bloc requiring its own set of institutions? Surely thats going to require even more spending by its constituent governments. The markets won't like this.
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Old 9th Dec 2011, 08:36   #60 (permalink)

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Hey Bandaide, it is not as if I fail to realise that the Euro is in "deep doo-doo". Only a fool would think that way, and only a fool would think that I think that way.

Most of my posts are prefaced or contain reference to the fact.

What irks me is the smiley faced assassins, who are hell bent on forcing by insult and aggravation, others to think that way.

They bang on, day by day, whistling the same old tune whilst predicted collapse dates whoosh by.

What are the looking for ? Some sort of pat on the back if and when the fateful day arrives when they can smugly stand up and say "I told you so"

I am quite content to sit back and watch actualite develop, modifying my game plan, rather than be swayed my the mystic-moggs of doom and disaster.

Breakfast !
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