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Old 10th Jan 2011, 21:50   #101 (permalink)
 
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BHR

You said:

Not saying our system is perfect in the same way I am not saying the US system is 100% flawed just suggesting perhaps 200+ years of civilian gun ownership is enough and it is time to try a new approach.

I wish you had stated that initially it would have saved several posts.

cheers
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Old 10th Jan 2011, 22:09   #102 (permalink)
 
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"The actual truth of the matter is the "cross hair icon" used is from a Mapping program that allows you to choose from Surveyor's icons for marking sight points."

Yes, that's what sprung to mind the first time I saw it.

This also clears up her retreat-reload comment.

She obviously was talking about reloading that mapping program.

Pity that she didn't choose to plagiarize a different icon, isn't it?
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Old 10th Jan 2011, 22:24   #103 (permalink)
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Pity that she didn't choose to plagiarize a different icon, isn't it?
Not allowed to use a red cross . . .
BBC News - Panto star told his costume breaks Geneva Convention
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Old 10th Jan 2011, 22:35   #104 (permalink)
 
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Rotten....as you formed a wrong impression based upon a failure to examine the facts about the issue.....who do you fault for that? Anyone but yourself?
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Old 10th Jan 2011, 22:47   #105 (permalink)
 
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Flypuppy

1st I am sorry you had to suffer the trauma of of any nearby gun related homicide.

No I am not a writer for Braveheart, simply comparing revolutions in Scottish
history with the revolution in US history.

I made reference to Scottish history when Scots fought several times to resist English rule. I wrote that this came to fruition at the battle of Bannockburn and Scotland regained the kingdom.

Now if I am incorrect in my history of Scotland please feel free to correct me and not attack me.

The statement you refer to was an attempt by me to explain the way the US fought and won independence during a time in history of guns and therefore the Constitution was written with the Right To Arms. It was also in response to a previous posted comment that was interpreted as self righteous and accusatory to us in the US as if Scotland had no homicides and the US does because of gun ownership. It was my attempt at explaining our 2nd Ammend.

As me and Mr Drapes exchanged..I am not stating that all or even any in the US today have a gun only for "tyranny." He and I agree most folk are too well fed and inert. However that was not the attitude in our history 200+ yrs ago.
That was my point and that's why we still have the right to have firearms. That is the truth whether you choose to believe it or not or whether you are pro or anti gun, fair enough?

In response to the news article: It would not allow me to paste the article only the part I did paste. When I tried it said I had to be a member to access the article.

Regards
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Old 10th Jan 2011, 22:53   #106 (permalink)
 
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Photo taken at his booking for Murder of six people and wounding/maiming over a dozen more.

This is the guy who did the shooting.....lots of remorse in his countanance or is that fear I see? He will be segregated in max security digs, provided top shelf legal counsel at taxpayer expense....and with the track record of his defense attorney....spend the rest of his life in prison or be killed by the Federal Government.

Except for the time delay, costs of his room and board, the mockery of the legal system and victim's suffering....the final outcome will seem like a fair deal.

Now let's hear the Liberal outcry if and when he gets the Death Penalty...after all we cannot hold someone like this responsible for their actions can we?
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Old 10th Jan 2011, 22:53   #107 (permalink)

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BHR

Quote:
As one of the few in this thread I actually have a large dose of respect for, can I ask why it makes a difference as to the perpetrator's political leanings (if any). Surely the point is not what drove him to do this but how easy it was for him to do it.
Once Pandora is out of the box it near impossible to put her back into the box. The United States never had the old peasant class of that of the old countries. That is why so many people left and came to America for a new start. To get that new start in a new land, they had to be armed to survive. This mind set has remained until today's time and most likely will continue for a long time in the future.

Either we live in a free country or we do not. Overly simple perhaps, but never the less the truth. Perhaps the price we sometimes must pay to live in a free country appears to be too high. Maybe it is too high, I'm not God, so I can't tell you.

Perhaps the question that needs be asked is; just how much freedom are you, or anyone, are willing to give up to prevent this from happening again?

Just declaring firearms illegal will not do it here in the US. There are just too many.
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Old 10th Jan 2011, 23:03   #108 (permalink)
 
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Consider the gun laws of Mexico....and the 30,000 killings they have had since Calderone took office and started a "War" on drugs!

A well sourced novel about gun control in the United States....written in 1996...and still timely today. The interesting part of the book was the background and reference to law cases and real events which prompts the reader to do some personal research to see if he is either fabricating the events or at best falsely stating what happened.

"Unintended Consequences" by John Ross. ISBN 1-888118-04-0
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Old 10th Jan 2011, 23:38   #109 (permalink)
 
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Sas writes:
Rotten....as you formed a wrong impression based upon a failure to examine the facts about the issue.....who do you fault for that? Anyone but yourself?
Well... After a bit of research, I must admit to ignorance.

I now realize Sarah was merely appealing to her wide base of supporters from the International Union of Operating Engineers, especially those rascally surveyors.

After all, one only has to google to find hundreds of occurrences of surveyors showing up at political rallies, proudly toting their transits and tripods, as is their constitutionally-assured right!

Now, I'm not trying to be argumentative or suggest someone was trying to get across a subliminal message - but here is a convenient graphic of surveyor's symbols:



Obviously, if you want to say "surveying" and not something else, good old #79 is the only choice, right?

Nothing else would have quite gotten across the message.



I've been ignorant of something else, too.

I thought the graphic posted by Matari was recent and "official" in the sense that it had come from the DNC some time in the last few years.

It is neither current nor is it an official representation of democratic party talking points.

It's from a 2004 post at the website of the DLC. Good digging, guys!

Heartland Strategy, Will Marshall, 2004

Wiki: Democratic Leaders Council




RR
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Old 10th Jan 2011, 23:46   #110 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
Obviously, if you want to say "surveying" and not something else, good old #79 is the only choice, right?
You never looked through a scope, right? 80 is closer for a "crosshair", a center pointed 75 is popular in short range, (< 300m), is also a goody...
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Old 10th Jan 2011, 23:59   #111 (permalink)
 
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Airborne

Yes, I have looked through a scope on a number of occasions - usually hunting.

I also think #79 looks a lot more like crosshairs than, say, #98, #100, #110, #111, or even most of the symbols available.

Even if the unfortunate choice of using an icon which looks like crosshairs was purely accidental, one would think that Sarah, who professes to be a hunter, would have drawn the same conclusion.

"Gee, great, guys, but that looks like crosshairs on a target. Could we tone it down a bit?"

I'm not saying that her little spout of violent imagery was the sole cause of this horrible incident, and I really don't even think there is a solid line between violent political vitriol and the crime at hand.

On the other hand, some folks seem to be fine and okay with this type of rhetoric and don't see this as something of a wakeup call.

Our system is supposed to encourage civil debate, not fist fights and shootings.


RR
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Old 10th Jan 2011, 23:59   #112 (permalink)

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Under the cover of all attention being given to the shooting of Congress woman Giffords, this little thing has sliped in.

Quote:
President Obama has given the U.S. Commerce Department authority to create a national cybersecurity "ecosystem" that will include a unique Internet ID for Americans. At a forum with Silicon Valley business and academic leaders at Stanford University, U.S. Commerce Secretary Gary Locke and White House Cybersecurity Coordinator Howard A. Schmidt announced the broad outline of the plan. And don't worry, this is not some Orwellian conspiracy to put an end Internet anonymityóat least, that's what the Government says. Commerce Secretary Gary Locke explains:
Data breaches, malware, ID theft and spam are just some of the most commonly known invasions of a userís privacy and security. People are worried about their personal information going out, and parents are worried about unwanted explicit material coming in to their children. And the landscape is getting more complex as dedicated hackers undertake persistent, targeted attacks and develop ever-more sophisticated frauds.

The end game, of course, is to create an Identity Ecosystem where individuals and organizations can complete online transactions with greater confidence. . . putting greater trust in the online identities of each other. . . and greater trust in the infrastructure that the transactions run across. Letís be clear. We are not talking about a national ID card. We are not talking about a government-controlled system. What we are talking about is enhancing online security and privacy and reducing and perhaps even eliminating the need to memorize a dozen passwords, through creation and use of more trusted digital identities.

What exactly this "Identity Ecosystem" will look like is still TMD; a forthcoming "National Strategy for Trusted Identities in Cyberspace" will provide greater details sometime in the next few months. But the stated goal is to enslave Internet users in Obama's Tron-esque cyberspace basketball camps "enable an Identity Ecosystem where Internet users can use strong, interoperable credentials from public and private service providers to authenticate themselves online for various transactions." It looks like it will be optional.

Cnet news reports that the announcement "effectively pushes the department to the forefront of the issue, beating out other potential candidates, including the National Security Agency and the Department of Homeland Security. The move also is likely to please privacy and civil-liberties groups that have raised concerns in the past over the dual roles of police and intelligence agencies."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://gothamist.com/2011/01/10/obam...nternet_id.php#


No this is not something that is up to Congress, nope, it is going to be. By order of President Obama.

In the past there have been irritating little minded people here, not from the US, that claim that we really don't live in a free country. I used to disagree with them.............
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Old 11th Jan 2011, 01:06   #113 (permalink)
 
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how did that happen?
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Old 11th Jan 2011, 01:10   #114 (permalink)


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No I am not a writer for Braveheart, simply comparing revolutions in Scottish history with the revolution in US history.
Braveheart got the historical context of Scotland's War of Independence hopelessly wrong, as it seems have you.

Quote:
Now if I am incorrect in my history of Scotland please feel free to correct me and not attack me.
The comparison between Scottish independence and the American revolution are not valid.
Scotland never had a revolution, the closest we came was in 1919 - but that is another story. A sovereign nation regained it's independence following political and military double crosses by the English King. Robert the Bruce who had a tenuous claim to the throne murdered the other legitimate claimant then became leader of what in this day and age would be termed insurgents.

William Wallace has been eulogised by Mel Gibson, and many others as a heroic freedom fighter. The reality is that William Wallace was a complete and utter bastard of the first degree. He rallied the people to arms and gave old Eddie Longshanks and his boys a whipping or two, but history shows that, far from the Super-Mel Freedom Fighter portrayed on screen, he was a tyrant who lived and ruled, perhaps by necessity, by the law of terror.

Beatings, executions and harsh reprisals, often exterminating entire villages, were common weapons in Wallace's War to win the hearts and minds of his fellow Scots. In a modern scenario he would most certainly be labelled as a terrorist and would probably get bombed to buggery.

The Vatican remained adamant that Scotland should be subservient to England. Scotlandís clergy, plus the hundreds of thousands of Scots who followed Robert, refused equally steadfastly. All were excommunicated by Pope Clement 5th. After his victory at Bannockburn in 1314, he restored the independence and sovereignty of Scotland, entrenching himself as Scotlandís most popular monarch. Staunchly, he defied further notices of excommunication re-imposed by Clement in 1308 and later by Pope John XXII in 1323. Throughout Robertís 23-year reign his excommunication was never entirely lifted as the plenary absolution promised by Pope John XXII after the Declaration of Arbroath came to nothing.

Your assertion that Scotland had help from the Pope is completely wrong - the English gained more from the Vatican than Scotland ever did.

Quote:
I am sorry you had to suffer the trauma of of any nearby gun related homicide.
I live in Dunblane. Google it.

Quote:
I am not stating that all or even any in the US today have a gun only for "tyranny." He and I agree most folk are too well fed and inert. However that was not the attitude in our history 200+ yrs ago.
That was my point and that's why we still have the right to have firearms. That is the truth whether you choose to believe it or not or whether you are pro or anti gun, fair enough?
The people of Iraq had the right to bear arms but that didn't stop our old mate Saddam from gaining and remaining in power. Gun ownership was legalized in Germany in 1928, five years before Hitler rose to power. Despite the claims of pro-gun activists, gun ownership did nothing to stop a tyrant like Hitler from seizing power.
Self defense is not necessarily a good argument since those who own firearms are actually more likely to be victims of homicide. Two studies published in The New England Journal of Medicine revealed that keeping a gun in the home increases the risk of both suicide and homicide.
MMS: Error
MMS: Error

Laws that were made 200+ years ago are allowed to change to fit society's needs. Do civilians need semi-automatic handguns? In my opinion, obviously not. As I said before, owning a tool that helps people to kill and injure others should be a privilege rather than a right.

Then again, my opinion is just that and will unlikely change anyone's viewpoint.
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Old 11th Jan 2011, 02:01   #115 (permalink)

 
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galaxy flyer,

Quote:
The part I liked was those that thought the Legislature never had detectors before and they should just face up to the possibility someone might shoot them. (See comments)
At least they're not capitalizing on the potential crisis to justify cracking down on political dissent (I don't approve of violent dissent, but it's not all that bizarre for a government to use a case of violent dissent to crack down on all forms of dissent) and gutting the constitution.


SASless,

Quote:
Since the Congress has had an approval rating of about 13-17% for years....which makes them the lowest ranked group in the country....
I didn't know their approval ratings were that low...

Quote:
it actually comes as more a surprise more of them have not been shot.
Regardless, I'm glad that they weren't. It's not that I really care about their lives; I just know that anything of that nature would be seized upon by the government to justify gutting our civil rights (after all a crisis should never be allowed to go unexploited).

Believe it or not: I actually do love my country. However, I do not love my government. I'm of the opinion and belief that the government should be considered a necessary evil -- it is needed, but it should not be any more powerful than necessary to do it's job (And for the record, I do believe regulating big business is definitely a necessary role of government -- I don't believe in anything extreme like communism, but corporations need to be regulated for the good of everybody).
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Old 11th Jan 2011, 02:17   #116 (permalink)
 
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[URL="http://www.rttnews.com/Content/PoliticalNews.aspx?Id=1507523"/URL]
The article summarizes poll results from Gallup...and notes the 13% low for the Congress Approval rating. The Democrats lost approval numbers within their own party. The November elections also report the loss of support the Democratic Party has suffered at both the Federal and State levels.

If historical events are repeated the approval rating for Congress in general should increase about ten percent for the new Congress almost immediately. Anything over that and we can probably see that as the amount of improvement the Republican control of the House demonstrates.
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Old 11th Jan 2011, 02:20   #117 (permalink)
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JaneDoH

Let me offer a different take on Federal "Regulation". The charge by the Constitution to allow the FED to regulate Interstate Commerce, was enacted to protect businesses from the excesses of Big Business. The fear was that as business became powerful, the little guy would be screwed out of a share of the handle. Intra State Commerce was deemed hands off for the FED, for obvious reasons. To foster commerce, trade and fairness, the Fed was to step in and perform at the federal level, actions that States would be unable to accomplish, having different laws. The function of Fed was never supposed to be anything but adjunct Mediation, should agreements fail, and Interstate mercantile started to fail due inapplicabilty of one's State's Law v/v Another's. The adjudication was to happen at the Federal Court level, always, again, as a form of arbitration, if mediation had failed. The Founders wrote the Document to protect the little guy, always. Unfair advantage taken in National Commerce frequently favored the small, as Monopoly was anathema to our Forefathers, to them it smelled of George.

At no time was the FED to enact its own Laws as a State would, its job was to regulate, and only rarely to adjudicate, in the instance of an impasse. Now the foundation of the Protection is a joke, as the money available to the large Corporation looks more juicy than the Rights of a small guy. Look at consolidation, Banks being failed and absorbed by bigger banks, and Huge Equity Firms being given fifteen licenses to steal, while excluding smaller firms. We need to have a patient and critical view of the perversion of this precious Document by Evil.

just sayin'
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Old 11th Jan 2011, 02:24   #118 (permalink)

 
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bearfoil,

Additionally, our government didn't have enough protections to prevent itself from being hurt by big businesses and banks.
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Old 11th Jan 2011, 02:56   #119 (permalink)
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Even if the unfortunate choice of using an icon which looks like crosshairs was purely accidental, one would think that Sarah, who professes to be a hunter, would have drawn the same conclusion.
Calling it a surveying symbol rather than a cross-hairs showing who she thinks her political supporters should go after is the lamest spin I've heard in ages.

Aside from that, the shooter had major problems that had nothing to do with Palin or any politician regardless of their beliefs.

Palin at least yanked the map with the "geological survey markers" off her website very soon after the murders occurred.

Expect many politicians to tone down their language for a while.

Some members of Congress are preparing new bills for gun control while others swear to pack weapons the next time they meet the public.

The lunatics have taken over the asylum.
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Old 11th Jan 2011, 03:21   #120 (permalink)
 
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Flypuppy

Thank you for the informative post.
I had understood Pope XXII to have been supportive of the Scottish declaration of independence (Declaration of Arbroath) and that lead to sovereign recognition by the Crown. If you are correct and me wrong, that doesn't make me "hopelessly wrong as you wrote."

Dunblane. A terrible tragedy. Apparently another homicidal lunatic shooting spree.

One thing I learned while in law enfocement and dealing with most everything the public can come up with, it all distills down to 1 thing, we are all each and every one of us the sum of all we have experienced.
This influences our views and values. Yours and mine.

Regards
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