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Old 9th Jan 2011, 21:02   #61 (permalink)
 
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First my extreme sorrow for the events in AZ. and my prayers for the vicitms and families involved, yes on BOTH sides of that Glock 9mm.
It is a sad day when a 22 yr old brings deadly force to such a place.
I hope justice prevails in this case but I also feel for his family also.

Now as my backside is up also, I wish to address the quote:

"I will ask the same question I always do, "How many more must die to allow you sportsmen/women to continue having fun?"

We, in the USA have a right to bear arms PERIOD. We granted it to ourselves when we threw your tyrant out of our country and made it impossible for any government including our own newly formed USA government to put a yoke back on our necks. It is called the US Constitution. It was not as you stated.... so sportsmen/women could have fun.

Unfortunately in the GREATEST FREE NATION that exists, some would and do take advantage of these rights and laws just as some judges release terrorists of airliners to Libya.

I and William Wallace are ashamed of your trivialization, uninformed and INSENSATIVE comments.
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Old 9th Jan 2011, 21:45   #62 (permalink)
 
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I try not get in the 'right to bare arms' arguments now, as stated I am far from being anti gun ownership, but it seems to me that the myth of the armed citizens as a barrier preventing governments pooing on them from a great height that is always punted in these arguments is just that, a bloody big myth ,seems to me the thing the US Government has to worry about least these days is the general armed citizenry turning on them,I suspect most of us are to well fed and inert now.

Last edited by tony draper; 9th Jan 2011 at 21:58.
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Old 9th Jan 2011, 22:02   #63 (permalink)
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Apparently, Arizona has no requirement for any type of licence for a firearm (according to what I have heard on the Beeb) and this guy was able to walk-in to a store in November and walk out with a Glock 9mm automatic.

Edited to add:-
A permit is required to carry a concealed weapon:-
Quote:
Permit to Carry a Concealed Weapon

The Department of Public Safety shall issue a permit to carry a concealed weapon to a resident of the state at least 21 years old, a U.S. citizen, who satisfactorily completes an approved firearms safety program, submits fingerprints and a fee determined by the Department of Public Safety, and who does not fall into a class of person prohibited to possess a firearm, such as a convicted felon, adjudicated mental incompetent, or illegal alien. The qualification checks shall be completed within 60 days of receipt of the application and the permit will be issued within 15 working days after completing the checks.
The permit is valid for not more than four years and is renewable every four years.
Further edited to add:-
The sought 'accomplice' has been cleared of any involvement - he was a cab driver who drove the gunman to the grocery store.

Last edited by G-CPTN; 9th Jan 2011 at 22:18.
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Old 9th Jan 2011, 22:19   #64 (permalink)
 
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G-CPTN

That's correct, only a license to carry concealed, open carry is legal, as it is in a number of states. Purchasing is also not subject to license. That said, there is a list of prohibited individuals who may not possess, carry or purchase weapons. The history is that concealed carry was considered dangerous as others could not know one had a gun. Open carry meant one's armed status was open and obvious. AZ is consistent with a number of state laws, but open carry is controversial in other states. My state allows only concealed carry with a license--having the gun exposed to the public is a NO-NO. If someone were to pursue it, the police might consider a "breach of peace", cause for confiscation and revocation of the LTC.

When I lived there, it was common to see open carry in AZ. I always had a .45 Automatic when traveling by car in those days and never was in violation of the law. Travelers were always allowed to have a weapon in their car for defense against two-legged, four-legged or crawling varmints. It is less common, but not unheard of, in Vermont. Vermont has a very low crime rate and THE MOST liberal gun law in the country--Second Amendment, PERIOD. A court in the '30s threw out a state gun control law as unconstitutional under the Second Amendment and has never been challenged since. Open carry, open purchase, the lot.

GF
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Old 9th Jan 2011, 22:26   #65 (permalink)
 
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Mr. Draper,

I have read and plan to continue to enjoy reading your posts. I say that with sincerity.
However it was no myth that our Founding Fathers saw a well armed militia of citizens as a deterent to tyranny. These are the facts of American Independence and the reasoning when the US Constitution was penned, hence the right to arms.

I tend to believe, as you do, that the public is somewhat inert from armed uprising and the US government has little to fear. Your and my current belief has no bearing on the beliefs over 200 yrs ago, hence the Right to Arms. As I said before it is sad that some would take advantage of this right to use unjust deadly force.

Now before my last sentence is taken incorrectly...... justifiable deadly force per US laws has to do with a threat to the innocent, disparity of size, fear of death that is immediate and unavoidable etc. etc. Also in many cases if one gets the justifiable use of deadly force wrong we have another law we use that may not be popular with some...the Death Penalty.
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Old 9th Jan 2011, 22:59   #66 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
While having a license to carry, I do not do so.
Best defensive strategy you'll ever have.

Along with some clean water, big smiles, and maybe a little sth containing alcohol.
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Old 9th Jan 2011, 23:10   #67 (permalink)
 
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I did not say what the founding fathers intended was a myth,we were all a different people 200 years ago,I said it was spurious to claim you have Mr Sam Colt in your car or in the bedside table in case you inadvertently elected a Chairman Mao, which is invariably pushed on threads here and elsewhere in this kind of debate.
PS, I have no objection to the death penalty either.
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Old 9th Jan 2011, 23:18   #68 (permalink)
 
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We are all really saddened about this tragedy, especially that little 9 year old child.
Some how the system failed when it comes to gun owners and the right to bear arms as we are all guaranteed under the constitution.
This idiot had continuous prior problems with law enforcement and still some how managed to get these firearms in his possession.
But his hatred for government he would maybe committed the same act if he had to do it with any other weapon, baseball bat etc.
My only hope is that they are water boarding the hell out of this little punk now and then put him in prison where bubba will take care of him.
After this he will be given the death sentence where they will put him in a chair and try to shock some of that evil out of him.
Dont blame legal gun owners for this one, he would have done something bad either way just because of his mental state.
Enforce the laws already on the books, not create new ones.
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Old 9th Jan 2011, 23:20   #69 (permalink)
 
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I too have no objection to Gun laws in America. As far as I'm concerned, it's a matter for Americans to decide what is and isn't allowed within their own borders and I do understand some of the thought that goes into gun ownership, or at least I think I do...

What disquietens me is the feeling that having followed American politics since Jimmy Carter's administration & followed it with a degree of comprehension since Reagan, I can't think of a time in my life where it has been so polarised and divided to the extent that the occasional nutter pops up with a gun & an agenda. I do appreciate the irony of mentioning Reagan & gun nutters in consecutive sentences, but you know what I mean.
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Old 9th Jan 2011, 23:49   #70 (permalink)
 
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I have no issues with arms. I have been shot at, damn it I have shot but we are a 3'rd world country. When will these people understand?

Are they savages?

NF
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Old 10th Jan 2011, 00:09   #71 (permalink)
 
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Mr Drapes

If you doubt the ability of armed citizens to determine their form of government, you should either read the history of the American Revolution or speak with any number of Afghans. Both will shore any flagging doubts about armed citizens and their power. There are, perhaps 300 million guns in the US ranging from .22s to elephant guns to various machine guns and "destructive devices". I shouldn't want to try to hold us down. There is even a guy building brand new Gatling guns in 45-70 Army.

Reentry

After having a gun, the best rules of a gun fight is "deterrence, avoidance and deescalation."

GF
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Old 10th Jan 2011, 00:23   #72 (permalink)
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It is NOT the guns, dammit. We have a mighty power to determine our path, four years ago we emailed Congress to shove their latest dream Act up their Ass, and they cravenly did as told. Nobody reads America right. No one, and certainly not here. Arizona just told Obama and Eric Holder to pound frikkin SAND!! They did, and then made up some story to save face.

It is the very power we have by virtue of the limits cranked down on the would be tinhorn Hair hats with delusions of Power by our Constitution. The Amendments speak loudly, and when the grit skins their shins, they cave. They always will, guns or no. Our politicians are scared sycophants who do what they are told. When the People remember their very own birthright, they will awaken to real power, the kind God gave us , and the Fathers anointed with their Blood.

All I'm gettin' is impatient. Food lines and gas rationing with some bullshit attempt at stealing the internet and the People will do what Americans always always do. They
Act.

Do not misunderestimate the sinew of the American People. Unless you want a fight.
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Old 10th Jan 2011, 00:39   #73 (permalink)
 
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This just in from Texas--Press takes gun course to avoid metal detectors. The part I liked was those that thought the Legislature never had detectors before and they should just face up to the possibility someone might shoot them. (See comments)

GF
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Old 10th Jan 2011, 00:42   #74 (permalink)
 
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Want to fight?

Oh Ursine one, the Americans let us down badly.

As an old cynic said to me, make Americans your enemy, that way you know they aren't your friends!

I don't subscribe but believe me, many do!

NF
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Old 10th Jan 2011, 01:04   #75 (permalink)
 
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wings folded:

Quote:
I have not so far read of your sadness in the same vein. You do not seem moved by this tragedy, and your attempt to make a comparison between trivial vandalism on the one hand, and multiple loss of life and grievous injury on the other hand, I find highly distasteful.
Since you directed this post to me, I feel obliged to respond.

I am saddened by this tragic event. By all accounts Ms. Giffords was a fine citizen and dedicated public servant. We hope and pray for her recovery. You won't see it on the BBC, but there is an outpouring of non-partisan support across the country for her and her family. And the nine innocent lives taken so brutally is also a terrible tragedy.

My post referencing the royal couple's incident was in direct response to someone saying (almost on cue) that Americans need to be more "civil." I guess that poster failed to see the irony in the lack of civility displayed by his own compatriots. Make no mistake, had the police not moved your future King out of harms way in hurry, the result would have been much more than "trivial vandalism."

But thanks for the kind words about this latest event...very sad stuff indeed.
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Old 10th Jan 2011, 02:10   #76 (permalink)
 
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Now, back to the canard that this tragedy was the result of unhinged right-wingers fueled by "uncivil" politics and heated, Sarah Palin-inspired rhetoric.

Take the famous "gunsite" map used by Palin. Clever? Not really. But unprecedented? Unique? Product of right-wing rage? Of course not.

As this site shows, there are other examples of "target" maps published by democratic operatives. And please, spare us the sanctimonious talk about civility. Politicians everywhere, even in the UK, set up "war rooms" for elections, "take aim" at their opponents, and "target precincts."

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Old 10th Jan 2011, 02:50   #77 (permalink)
 
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Yes well maybe it's about time politicians and certain parts of the media stopped fueling hatred and bigotry, stopped suggesting murder (extra judicial killing) were a reasonable answer if you disapprove of someone elses point of view, stopped tarring anyone they don't agree with as 'terrorist' and stopped using the terminology of war and killing with political campaigns and sensationalist editorial opinion. It's time to turn down the (self)righteous outrage BS I think.

Last edited by Load Toad; 10th Jan 2011 at 04:42.
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Old 10th Jan 2011, 12:10   #78 (permalink)
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WSJ: The Arizona Tragedy and the Politics of Blood Libel
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Old 10th Jan 2011, 13:52   #79 (permalink)
 
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Matari,

Quote:
Since you directed this post to me, I feel obliged to respond.

I am saddened by this tragic event. By all accounts Ms. Giffords was a fine citizen and dedicated public servant. We hope and pray for her recovery. You won't see it on the BBC, but there is an outpouring of non-partisan support across the country for her and her family. And the nine innocent lives taken so brutally is also a terrible tragedy.

My post referencing the royal couple's incident was in direct response to someone saying (almost on cue) that Americans need to be more "civil." I guess that poster failed to see the irony in the lack of civility displayed by his own compatriots. Make no mistake, had the police not moved your future King out of harms way in hurry, the result would have been much more than "trivial vandalism."

But thanks for the kind words about this latest event...very sad stuff indeed.
In the context of the loss of life and the horrendous injuries of survivors in this incident, I find that debates about Second Amendments, Death Penalties, rights to carry lethal weapons covertly or openly are of secondary importance.

I have my own views on each of these topics, but have always chosen to keep them just that: my own views.

American citizens, through the electoral process, choose the laws and regimes under which they live, and I have absolutely no right, nor desire, to intervene. So I do not even express a view.

Your clairvoyance in asserting that had the police not removed Charles and Camilla, the outcome "would have been much more than "trivial vandalism" impresses me.

Would a can of white paint pass through the brain of either of them? How lethal is a cracked car window?

You also retorted that in Europe we are blind to to stories about local politicians killed closer to home, quoting nasty events in Russia.

"Closer to home" : Russia is 56 miles from your country. The neares point of Russia to the Uk is 4,302 miles (both statute, not nautical, I believe).

There are often anti American views expressed on these threads. Just as there are anti European views expressed.

It is very saddening to me that you make the most of these tragic events to try to score points in the US versus Europe direction.

The injured and the deceased deserve more respect than that.
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Old 10th Jan 2011, 15:49   #80 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
Your clairvoyance in asserting that had the police not removed Charles and Camilla, the outcome "would have been much more than "trivial vandalism" impresses me.

Would a can of white paint pass through the brain of either of them? How lethal is a cracked car window?
I submit, quite easily, and very. Mob violence, which is absolutely what that incident was, is incredibly unpredictable and random.
First, you have an angry mob attacking two figureheads, ostensibly to achieve some kind of goal about an issue over which the figureheads have no control.
That, in and of itself, is pointless. If I read it rightly, the PM has control over tuition rates through the House of Commons. So, why isn't Cameron being burned in effigy, or whatever?
The ultimate outcome would have been completely unpredictable if events had been allowed to unfold, and I expect the security chief for the royals would think similarly.

Quote:
You also retorted that in Europe we are blind to to stories about local politicians killed closer to home, quoting nasty events in Russia.

"Closer to home" : Russia is 56 miles from your country. The neares point of Russia to the Uk is 4,302 miles (both statute, not nautical, I believe).
Not to be pedantic, but, I think you'll find Russia is comfortably under half that distance (something around 1,800 SM) from the UK and can be reached from the UK by road or rail. It also, geopolitically, is part of the same landmass, and parts of Russia are considered to be European.
While the 56 mile figure is about right, it's from one place where the major population centers are lighthouses and walrus colonies to another, much the same.
Vladivostok to Anchorage is over 3,200 miles.
Vladivostok to Seattle is about 4,700 miles.
Now, either Sarah Palin has her finger on the pulse of Russia or she doesn't, but you really can't have it both ways.

There's a spring-loaded tendency on both sides of the big water to blame whatever happens wherever on the nature of the laws or systems in place in the other place.
Easy to do. Sanctimonious self-righteous people on both sides use specific examples to further their own prejudices (and yes, they are prejudices) and propose what they see as 'solutions' without the faintest notion of how the cultures in each place have formed or without looking at the unintended consequences of these 'solutions'. Our respective 'news' outlets feed this tendency without the least bit of self-editing.
To cite examples would be very easy indeed, and virtually all of us are guilty of it at one time or another. But yet, when we actually meet in person, we tend to get on rather well, despite our differences of opinion and disagreements. Odd, don't you think?
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