And shipping [which contributes more CO2?] does what?
As CO2 is neither a poison or pollutant why is this Government and others making such a fuss over a 3% output of the gas?
Without CO2 we would all starve/die, what are these politicians [barely] doing?
If we do nothing we will save money, apparently get warmer [no bad thing] and avoid what is probably going to happen which is suffer seriously cold winters with long power cuts as the lack of coal fired and nuclear power stations [ thanks all those Stupids, Plane/Green/Bio etc] will bring this country [UK] to its knees long before countries like France [Nuclear Powered] etc.
The next UK Government will probably have Zak Goldsmith in charge of environmental affairs. That will be the straw that breaks the camel's back!
Last edited by aviate1138; 9th Sep 2009 at 05:16.
Reason: Rush of blood to ancient brain
Location: A Whilom nimble brain. With 31 million posts.
Age: 73
Posts: 3,379
So, you think it will be an improvement when things warm up?
Sadly, the melting of the polar ice caps, and the resultant disruption of the gulf stream, will cause winters in the UK that will make you wish you were in Siberia.
People seem not to understand the speed with which things will change when we trigger the toppling of fragile balance. Unstable systems become chaotic with a bang.
There are high spec Nikons in boxes in the most unlikely places. The time-lapse pix of the ice-cap fringes are horrifying.
As far as aviation is concerned, we can't do much about the C02 part, but there is some good science on the change in ground temperatures under contrails. That is really astonishing.
According to the data, the planet's climate isn't warming, its actually cooling and has been for decades. That's why the climatologists were predicting the dawn of a new Ice Age when I were a sprog, and apart from some minor fluctuations in the '90's the long term trend remains downwards.
What do you expect i can't remember the last time i saw a nature show on the BBC with having the line ''this is the last time we could see one of these leopards,tigers,polar bears,etc, as man made global warming is destroying their habitat''. There was a programme on sky (documentary channels) last week that had been made by the BBC about 'Global Warming' the good Dr Ian Stauart (geologist) telling us all the claims made against it were rubbish and it had all been prooved, even the infamous 'hockey stick' was true and if you don't believe in it you should because we're all doomed. It was the usual cherry picking of bits of data to suit. My good lady and her mother are deep into all the global warming tosh and it leads to some good debates between us, i finall shut her up the other day with .... Global warming is a myth, nothing has been prooved yet. She said 'well neither has einsteins theory of relativity been prooved but you believe in that?'. It all went quiet when i said 'the difference is the governement aren't trying to tax me to of the roads and take every penny they can off me in the name of the THEORY of relativity, but its ok for the THEORY of Manmade global warming is it!'.
I'm still open to be convinced but everytime i see something on the mighty BBC or in a Science Journal it takes 2 minutes on a computer to find out contradicting info. It almost looks like the BBC have been told to mention global warming whenever possible by el-gordo and his chums and we might just increase the licence fee, or am i being cynical now?
So, you think it will be an improvement when things warm up?
Sadly, the melting of the polar ice caps, and the resultant disruption of the gulf stream, will cause winters in the UK that will make you wish you were in Siberia.
People seem not to understand the speed with which things will change when we trigger the toppling of fragile balance. Unstable systems become chaotic with a bang.
There are high spec Nikons in boxes in the most unlikely places. The time-lapse pix of the ice-cap fringes are horrifying.
As far as aviation is concerned, we can't do much about the C02 part, but there is some good science on the change in ground temperatures under contrails. That is really astonishing.
Keeping an open mind - Good
Keeping head in sand - Bad
Climate has changed over the centuries regardless of the influence of us humans. We have to adapt, that is all. There weren't the 'high spec Nikons' available at the time to record it.
After 9/11 when all aviation was banned from the United States temperatures actually rose by 1 degree - the contrails were found to be causing global cooling. I notice this information has been dropped by the Armageddon pedlars.
Indeed keep an open mind. Don't just believe all of the Armageddon theories.
As an aviation professional I take note of "Section 7(a) Monitoring Plan Template" and "Section 7(d) Procedures to ensure total uncertainty is met" of the "Guidance for the Aviation Industry, Monitoring and Reporting Annual Emissions and Tonne km Data for EU Emissions Trading".
We are being required to monitor our fuel consumption by reference to the fuel uplifts, measured to an accuracy of +/-1% and to provide evidence that our reporting figures actually meet this requirement.
Aviation is being targeted with requirements to provide direct certification of fuel quantities consumed despite the admission within the EU source documents themselves, that aviation is responsible for just 13% of EU transport emissions, while no such onerous measurement and reporting requirements are proposed (or even practical) for direct monitoring of the remaining 87% of EU transport activity.
Gormless Gordon's autocratic regime has dreamed up an alleged need to reduce everybody's carbon emissions by 90% in order to meet the EU's 80% target set for the UK. If aviation is by the EU's admission responsible for only 13% of total transport emissions, the regime's claim is ridiculous. The question is what is the real agenda? Why are the government so determined to damage our industry and put thousands of aviation workers on the dole?
This item below covers quite a period of the area around the North Pole. Have a good read because it uses real scientifically gathered and reviewed data.
Reminds me of the old days when the religious zealots proclaimed the world was flat and branded Nicholas Copernicus a heratic for daring to suggest it was spherical..(ish)...
Fast forward 400 or so years and the have the tax raising governments and their resulting financially advantaged cohorts, as the zealots and informed open minded scientists and popular opinion as the heratics
Im a firm believer the earth has natural proven cooling and warming periods..its how much man is contributing is the argument.
It would be interesting to see how many govt funded scientists there are out there as a proportion of the non govt funded ones. This proves a skewering of the arguement in favour of the armeggedon lets tax em all types as opposed to the other held view that yes there will be warmng and yes it may have a smaller effect, but lets not all start building our houses on stilts yet.
Id suspect in a 100 years time when we are having colder winters, warmmer summers and harvesting wine in the Vale of Evesham, Holidaying in the Costa del t'Blackpool, everyone will laugh at the efforts of our tax raising governments and their green lobbyists as over alarmist clap trap that by their predictions we should be under 50' of water by now.
People seem not to understand the speed with which things will change when we trigger the toppling of fragile balance. Unstable systems become chaotic with a bang.
Claptrap....
The system IS chaotic, in the mathematical sense.
Pity they don't teach that anymore... or is that being suppressed because it's an "inconvenient truth" ?
Loose Rivets. This is as far as I can determine by reading whatever is available to me.
1. There is precious little evidence that sea ice is reducing. Plenty that it is in fact increasing.
2. The medium-long term trend shows cooling, not warming. In many places, the short term trend is also cooling
3. Fact is that the earth has been hotter, in recent times, before the industrial revolution (middle ages for example) and significantly hotter in pre-history.
4. Ice ages come and go. Mini ice ages come and go. The earth always heats up before it cools again (otherwise, how would it ever come out of an ice age). BTW, technically, we are in an ice age now as there is floating ice at the north pole with the Antartic and Greenland sheets present. There have been many times in the earths history when there has been no ice at the north pole.
The only evidence I can ever find that disputes the above is either very hotly contested by experts in the field (and I am nowhere near one of those) or has been thoroughly discredited. Even the scientists at the original Kyoto convention wrote to governments afterwards and said that they were far from reaching consensus and had been mis-represented. Many have since withdrawn their assertions altogether.
I don't get much more sophisticated than Wikipedia when it comes to this topic but check out this page, especially the Vostok ice core results, and then define "closed mind".
You suggest that AGW sceptism is closed mindeness. By my reckoning, I'd be close minded to believe in AGW. Open mindedness to me demands that I am sceptical to AGW and all the vested interests associated with it.
I am far less sceptical of government attempts to make me scared of something and extract extra taxes so that they can save me from it.
People seem not to understand the speed with which things will change when we trigger the toppling of fragile balance. Unstable systems become chaotic with a bang.
Loose Rivets.
Much has been written to repudiate the other claims you've made, but the statement "fragile balance" is the one that I find disturbing.
The Earth cannot have survived 4 billion years if the balance were fragile.
feedback mechanisms exist to keep it in a stasis of sorts. That stasis has a bandwidth and one of those parameters is the temperature excursions the system will allow before recovering.
Humans are just part of the overall feedback components and are as necessary to the Earh's evolution as any of the other millions of species that have come (and many gone) before us.
BBC unfortunately has become prey to the emotional claptrap one sees from the "green-guilt ridden lefties" who poorly understand the nature of nature.
And before you say "it matters to us!" , I would like to point out that nature cares absolutely NOTHING about us as a species. She is quite happy to foist species extinction events like asteroid impacts, supervolcanoes and the like without consulting the BBC.
The deforestation caused by preparation of agricultural land for biofuels is a significantly larger problem. The EU requirement for biofuels and it funding and grants, even at current levels has caused irreprable damage to several ecosystems worldwide, providing loss of habitat to many endangered species as well as the indiginous human populations.
thats an inconveient fact as well.
the envionmental lobby has become a multi billion dollar industry that chooses to ignore data that doesnt fit with its political or financial agenda.
Quote:
If this happens to a significant proportion of the world's aviation, I'll eat a Boeing.
you're safe on that for the time being.. They taste like chicken !
but, ice is less dense than liquid water, so, melting the ice cap should result in a LOWERING of sea level........ yeah, that makes sense..........i think
Sorry, no, it doesn't....
Floating ice already displaces its weight, hence the end result is the same volume when melted. So no problem there.
(Classic case of ice cube floating in brimming glass of water.... it doesn't overflow when the ice cube melts.)
It's land ice (Greenland ice cap, Antartic ice cap, mostly) that when melting and running into the sea has the potential of raising sea levels.
Nice question, though, because if we are now in a global cooling phase, and via the evaporation > condensation > clouds > snow cycle, more and more snow/ice get dumped on the icecaps (and elsewhere) isn't that likely to LOWER the sea levels?
Port Authorities will be screaming for more taxes because of all the extra dredging. You just can't win, can you?
CJ
PS The Dutch will be pleased.... It will somewhat offset the country tilting into the North Sea. And somewhat colder winters will increase the chance of them being able to hold their famous Eleven-Town tour on ice.
