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Old 19th Aug 2010, 14:26   #441 (permalink)
 
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Or perhaps more pertinently a governement would have offered it in order to secure a conviction.

Governments have form for this kind of thing going back to the year ***. Us, the Americans, everyone. I find it amazing that people still express a degree of faith in governments doing the right thing when a large scale outrage occurs. Very rarely does anyone come out of these things well, not the victims, the police, the politicians & especially the convicted.

A good rule of thumb is to ask oneself: Cui bono?
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Old 19th Aug 2010, 14:30   #442 (permalink)
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I assume Al-Megrahi's defence team informed about the payments made to the prosecution's star witness at the trial? Or maybe they weren't.
Not at the time of the trial.

In fact I don't believe the reward payments were made in advance. There exists a police document which urges the US Justice Department to pony up the $3m payments to the Gaucis for their "exceptional contribution", but that is dated April 2002, ie after the wrongful conviction had been obtained.

The Defence side was unaware, at the time of the trial, that the Scottish police had feted and wined and dined Tony Gauci on an all expenses paid tour of Scotland, including a highly detailed tour of the various impact locations in and around Lockerbie and Tundergarth. Some wag asked whether he'd been coached or driven. That tour had been way back in 1991.

In February of last year the Defence was still trying to persuade the Crown, during a High Court hearing, to make available all documentation relating to inducements made or offered to the Gaucis. The Crown refused, saying that the disclosures sought should only come after grounds of appeal were established as supporting documents and not to help form the basis of grounds for appeal.

It was classic Catch 22 trick. The defence could not obtain the documents until they already had those documents and had incorporated them into an Appeal submission.

The Crown have played dirty all the way through this thing.
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Old 19th Aug 2010, 14:32   #443 (permalink)
 
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Also worth noting they have never been admitted to, although might be worth a look at the kinds of cars the Gauci brothers are riding around in...
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Old 19th Aug 2010, 14:41   #444 (permalink)
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As a pov, 103 is one of dozens of polarizing political gambits. One notices the line drawn, and why? Insufficient data to convince either side. Hence the defensiveness of the supporters of the "Official line", and the vehemence of the detractors; both sides populated by learned and articulate men and women, infected temporally with a bias created by doubt.

The Truth is in the middle, but at least a move of some distance off the fossilized arguments put forth. The Truth comforts, the Lie is as a flea in one's drawers.

I don't need to know the Truth, it is unlikely ever to be shared in any case by those who still practice a military fundamental: "Divide and Conquer".

Who's the villain? In the eighties the Texas collider was cancelled, and three thousand mathematicians went looking for work. Having conquered the casinos by a ploy created at MIT, they found Wall Street, and derivatives allowed unknown thousands to heist trillions of dollars.

When the "Cold War" ended, thousands of operatives went looking for work, and out of the frustration of having nothing to do, well, there were losses, explosions mainly. What passes for reality in politics is nothing of the sort. A separate reality of outrageous dimensions plays out in front of almost everyone. Watch Putin.

bear

Last edited by bearfoil; 19th Aug 2010 at 14:54.
 
Old 19th Aug 2010, 17:20   #445 (permalink)
 
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I find it amazing that people still express a degree of faith in governments doing the right thing
I find it equally amazing the bovine passivity of the population in the face of some outrageous abuses of power by our governments. In the last decade we've attacked a sovereign state for no valid reason, become entrenched in a war without apparent end in another, suffered a near melt-down of the financial system, discovered our elected representatives have been filling their boots with dodgy expense claims and, even when caught, attempt to cover-up what they'd been up to. Those few individuals which do protest are mocked by the media and, on occasion, assaulted (and worse) by the police. Yet here we sit, moaning about house prices and the duty on wine and spirits. Meanwhile, a fifth of males of working age sit idly at home every day twiddling their thumbs dreaming up some new crime to make ends meet. Watch Putin? Watch your front door more like.
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Old 19th Aug 2010, 18:57   #446 (permalink)
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SASless, if you move on from the mind-numbing repetition of conspiracy conspiracy conspiracyconspiracy you be able to see the picture more clearly.

The "conspiracy theory" failed. Megrahi and F'hima were alleged to have conspired together to cause the explosion. One was acquitted, ie NOT guilty, of conspiring with Megrahi but Megrahi was found guilty of conspiring with the other guy. That's nuts, even if the illusion is created by three men in frocks and foot-long wigs.

So much for "conspiracy" theories. Let's leave that silly word out of the equation and we'll see things much more clearly.

You ask whom you should lobby. If you live in a country which is a democracy or in one which isn't a democracy but claims to be a democracy, then the obvious person or persons for you to petition would be your elected representatives). Alternatively the Fourth Estate can lobbied, if only so that they can't claim that they 'didn't know' that the government lies they parrot are just lies. There's just such a petition going on right now in Scotland and is drawing some quite knowledgable people to join and sign the petition.

Slapping labels on countries such as "Syria - state sponsor of terrorism" doesn't do any good. People who live in glass houses, and all that. The US sponsored the Peshmurga terrorists for years and are currently sponsoring the Jundullah terrorists to act against Iran. Britain sponsored a terrorist attack against Gadaffi in the 1990s. Let's move on from that language too. The perpetual war-war mindset has done too much damage already.



Prospector, the $6Bn which was extorted from Libya was a drop in the bucket compared to the enormous human and financial losses which were being incurred by the Libyan people with each passing year. As with any mugging, it's best just to pay the mugger and be on your way than to stand and fight an unwinnable battle.

As for the death penalty thing in the case of serious miscarriages of Justice in terrorist trials such as the Birmingham Six (aka Maguire Seven, one of whom died in prison) and the Guildford Four and the Libyan guy, it is noteworthy that the judge in the Birmingham case actually stated when sentencing the victims of the perverse verdict that he wished that he had the ability to apply the death penalty.

Fifteen years later the Six were finally freed when the conviction was overturned on appeal. The absence of the death penalty is therefore highly relevant. Leaving aide his terminal cancer for a moment, Megrahi would have been killed and with him any chance of an Appeal would have perished. Incidentally, and probably highly relevantly, the same sort false forensic "science" was used to wrongly convict Megrahi as had been used to wrongly convict the Birmingham Six. It even involved some of the same, now comprehensively discredited and former, forensic scientists.

If you have time to spare, read the article on PA103 by Gareth Peirce. It is necessarily a lengthy read as it has not been truncated for the benefit of the sound-bite generation.

There is also a highly cogent Report by the UN appointed observer on several matters which arose in 2008 with regard to the Appeal which was subsequently dropped a year ago.
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Old 19th Aug 2010, 19:19   #447 (permalink)
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dead pan

On target Sir. Why do Public officials steal and embezzle? Because they can. I was in Politics for a time, and am not proud of what I found myself becoming. I left in a fear of falling prey to instincts that are after all, human. Were we wise, as a people, we would not allow Politics or office holding to become a career.

Putin? His name a device of the author. The problem is largely not seen, mostly the things the public will not pursue. What catches our collective eye are those things performed by the lesser of a species of Thief unimaginable to reasonable people.

Michael: My Father wanted me to be a Senator, or Governor.

Kay: Noble, and not much like your family, thieves and gangsters. At least Senators and Governors don't have people killed.

Michael: Don't be naive.

(from Puzo, "The Godfather")

As a current exemplar, I present Charles Rangel, D NY. The lowest of "pezzonovantes", entry level hoodlum who had too little ambition to join the people of whom we do not speak.

cheers Mr. Pan, bear

If one doesn't Stand for something, one will fall for anything.

Last edited by bearfoil; 19th Aug 2010 at 19:31.
 
Old 19th Aug 2010, 20:22   #448 (permalink)
 
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Lockerbie bomber: MacAskill should resign - Telegraph

Quote:
Since he has let those people down and grievously embarrassed his country, there is only one honourable step left for him to take.
Politician?......Honour?.......Get real!
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Old 19th Aug 2010, 20:35   #449 (permalink)
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Lockerbie bombing 'should be investigated by independent inquiry'

To my great surprise, a very distinguished human rights lawyer has joined the call for a full Inquiry. He's no less a personage than the head of the Scottish Human Rights Commission.

The Guardian carries the story in Friday's edition.

Here's a partial extract of what the article says:

Quote:
A senior human rights lawyer has called for an independent inquiry into the Lockerbie bombing as controversy intensifies over the convicted bomber's early release on medical grounds.

Professor Alan Miller, the head of the Scottish human rights commission, said there were still significant doubts about the guilt of Abdelbaset al-Megrahi after an independent investigation uncovered new evidence that undermined the conviction.

Miller told the Guardian that the UK government should release a secret intelligence report that the Scottish criminal cases review commission said could – on its own – have been enough to have freed Megrahi on appeal. It was withheld at his trial.

The document is believed to cast serious doubts on prosecution claims that Megrahi used a specific Swiss timer for the bomb. The release of the document was banned in 2008 by David Miliband, the then foreign secretary, leading to a lengthy legal battle by Megrahi's lawyers which ended when the Libyan abandoned his appeal because of his terminal cancer.
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Old 20th Aug 2010, 00:24   #450 (permalink)
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Shortest lived fall guy- Lee Harvey Oswald

Second shortest- Jack Ruby

Longest lived - A tie, but I like Sirhan Sirhan's chances better than the Yemeni with a boom box.

"Other than that, Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play?"
 
Old 20th Aug 2010, 08:17   #451 (permalink)
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We'll get back to the nittygritty of PA103 shortly, but as today is the first anniversary of the compassionate release of the dying fallguy for this atrocity, it might perhaps be worth mentioning the convicted IRA terrorists, many of whom were serving life sentences and some of whom had a tariff greater than Mehrahi's, who were released by Tony Blair under his truce with the US/Libya-sponsored Republican terrorists.

In total they committed four or five times as many murders as the killers of the 270 victims of PA103:

PATRICK KELLY

SEAMUS McARDLE

BRIAN McHUGH

JAMES MURPHY

MICHAEL PHILLIPS

PAT MARTIN

ROISIN McALISKEY

GERRY HANRATTY

NICHOLAS MULLEN

JOE O'CONNELL

LIAM O'DUIBHIR

LIAM QUINN

VINCENT DONNELLY

DONAL GANNON

PAUL MAGEE

EOIN MORROW

PETER SHERRY

JOHN CRAWLEY

EDDIE BUTLER

HUGH DOHERTY

HARRY DUGGAN

FRANKIE RAFFERTY

JAN TAYLOR

JOHN BRADY

MARK CLEARY

TERRY CLINTON

KIERAN COLLINS

CHRISTOPHER CRAVEN

ANTHONY DEERY

CATHAL FOX

SEAN GRIFFIN

PADDY IRELAND

SEAN KELLY

SEAN KELLY

MARTIN LAFFERTY

SEAMUS MADDEN

BILL MADDEN

TOM McALLISTER

ARAN McCART

MARK McDOWELL

WILLIAM McGAHEY

SEAMUS McGARRIGLE

PATSY McGURK

EAMON MOORE

FRANK O'KANE

MICHAEL O'NEILL

MARK SKILLEN

CRAIG BANNON

PEARCE DARCY

LIAM GALLEN

PADDY GALLEN

EUGENE GALLEN

EDDIE GRIEVE

FINBAR GRIEVE

JOE HARPER

NOEL HEALY

HARRY McCARTNEY

NIGEL McDERMOTT

JJ McGEOUGH

SEAN McGUIGAN

DARCY McMENAMIN

LOUIS McNALLY

EAMONN MOORE

DECLAN MOORE

DECLAN MURPHY

ANTHONY RAISEY

CONAL TIMONEY

BRIAN ARTHURS

MARTIN BULLOCK

KEVIN CAMPBELL

MICHAEL CARRAGHER

GREGORY CARROLL

STEVEN CONLON

CORMAC CONLON

SEAN CONNOLLY

ROBBIE DAVIDSON

SEAN DUFFY

PAUL JOHN DUFFY

PAUL EDWARDS

NED FLYNN

RICHIE HARKIN

SEAN HUGHES

SEAN KELLY

OLIVER MASTERSON

PAUL McEVOY

PADDY McGENNITY

BRIAN McGUIGAN

MARTIN MINES

DAMIEN NICELL

MICK O'HARA

MICHAEL TIMMONS

MICHAEL BENNET

LEO CUNNINGHAM

JOHN DOBBIN

JOE DOHERTY

PADDY DONAGHY

GERARD GEARON

BRIAN HUNTER

TERRY LAVERY

HARRY McCANN

VIVIAN McDONALD

BERNARD McGINN

COLM McILWEE

NOEL McKAY

STEPHEN McSTRAVICK

ALEX MURPHY

DOMINIC MURPHY

JOHN O'HAGAN

SEAN BOYLE

PADDY CORRIGAN

DAVID DELANEY

TONY DOHERTY

SEAN FAY

MICHAEL HILL

MICHAEL HILLEN

FRANCIS MAHER

ROY McCOOL

DERMOT McERLAINE

STEPHEN McGUIGAN

EUGENE McKEE

MICHAEL McKEE

HUGH McKEE

PETER MONTGOMERY

DAMIEN MORGAN

STEPHEN MURPHY

BARRY MURRAY

KEVIN MURRAY

DOMINIC NICHOLL

JOHN PEIRCE

TONY TAYLOR

SEAN McNULTY

DON BROWNE

BARNEY CAMPBELL

BRENDAN CAMPBELL

MARTIN DILLON

CIARAN FERRY

DARRAN FITZPATRICK

ARTHUR FORBES

MARK HANNIGAN

GAVIN HAWKINS

PAUL JOHNSTON

BRENDAN McCANN

JOHN McFADDEN

JIM McGIVERN

MICKY McHUGH

KIERAN MURRAY

THOMAS O'DWYER

DERMOTT QUINN

FRANKIE TENNYSON

TOM BRENNAN

MARK BROGAN

JAMES DUFFIN

PETER LYNCH

WILLIAM McATEER

JIMMY McCLEEVE

PAUL McCREADY

CHARLIE McKIERNAN

OLIVER McKINLEY

TOM McVEIGH

GERARD O'NEILL

FRANCIS ROONEY

MICKY ROULSTON

PAUL STITT

JOHN TUMELTY

GARY BRESLIN

SEAN CAMPBELL

TARLAC CONNOLLY

KEVIN COSGROVE

GERRY MAGEE

EMMANUEL MARLEY

SEAN MATHERS

DERMOT McERLAINE

PAT McGUIGAN

PATRICK McMAHON

PAT MEEHAN

MARTY MO LL OY

GARY MONAGHAN

JAMES MORGAN

PAUD MULLIGAN

TONY O'NEILL

PAT SHEEHAN

SEANNA WALSH

CHRISTY WALSH

MICHAEL MERVYN

JOE BRENNAN

TOMMY BROGAN

JAMES CANNING

THOMAS COSGROVE

KEVIN DONEGAN

RORY DOUGAN

BERTIE DUFFY

HARRY FITZSIMMONS

BERNARD FOX

TOMMY FOX

MARTIN GERVIN

PACKY LEONARD

TOMMY MARRON

BRENDAN McANOY

DECLAN McCOMISH

SEAN McKINLEY

CHRISTOPHER MORAN

SEAMUS MULLAN

MYLES MURPHY

DAN ROONEY

THOMAS QUIGLEY

MICKY BRESLIN

MICHAEL CAMPBELL

MICHAEL DOHERTY

JIM DONNELLY

MICHAEL DUFFY

RAB FRYERS

TOMMY HUGHES

THOMAS JACKS

PAUL KAVANAGH

BOBBY MAHON

PETER McALEESE

KEVIN McCANN

LIAM McCOTTER

GERRY McDONNELL

LIAM McNALLY

THOMAS McWILLIAMS

DERMOTT MOORE

RORY MORGAN

MARTIN NELSON

SEAN O'HAGAN

GERRY O'NEILL

GERARD BRADLEY

DESMOND CHRISTIE

ROBERT CRAWFORD

BOBBY FITZSIMMONS

PADDY HAMILL

SEAMUS HAWKINS

PHIL MANNING

PETER MARKEY

BRENDAN LENNON

TONY McCOLGAN

DAMIEN McCOMB

PAUL McCULLOUGH

BRENDAN McELKERNEY

KEVIN McSHANE

GEORDIE MERVYN

PADDY MURRAY

JIM SMITH

BOBBY STOREY

ALBERT WEIR

PADRAIC WILSON

PATRICK MAGEE

DAVY ADAMS

LIAM AVERILL

GERRY BUTLER

STEPHEN CANNING

COLM COYLE

SEAMUS DOHERTY

EUGENE GILMARTIN

SEAN HILL

GERARD LOUGHLIN

SEAN LYNCH

GERARD MACKEN

STEPHEN MAGEE

KEVIN McCAFFERY

PADDY McGILLOWAY

FRANCIE McGOLDRICK

NOEL McHUGH

JIM McVEIGH

CIARAN MORRISON

PADDY O'DOWD

FEILIM O'hADHMAILL

DEREK SWEETMAN

PETER BATESON

MARTINA ANDERSON

ROSENA BROWN

AILISH CARROLL

GERALDINE FERRITY

ROSALEEN McCORLEY

ROISIN MCLAUGHLIN

ELLA O'DWYER

MAIRE WRIGHT

BRENDAN DOWD

TOMMY McMAHON

ANTON ROGERS

FRANK BURKE

CIARAN CHAMBERS

GABRIEL CLEARY

JOHN CONATY

DEREK DOHERTY

TONY DUNCAN

TOMMY ECCLES

DREW GILLESPIE

JAMES GINLEY

TONY HEANEY

MATTHEW HENESSY

JIMMY HUGHES

PATRICK KAVANAGH

SEAN KINSELLA

DENIS LAHIFFE

PARAIC MAC FHLOINN

NOEL MAGEE

ANDREW MARTIN

SIMON MAXWELL

PEARSE McAULEY

PATRICK MCCARTNEY

BRIAN MCNALLY

BRIAN McSHANE

JOHN MOYNA

PAT MURPHY

PAUL MURRAY

MICK O'BRIEN

BERNARD O'HAGAN

CONOR O'NEILL

MICHAEL O'NEILL

NESSAN QUINLIVAN

PETER RODGERS

JERRY SHEEHY

HUGH WILKINSON

VINCENT WOOD

DENIS KINSELLA

PATRICK HAYES

Then there's the US terrorists who were also sent on their merry way, despite their murderous convictions:

RICHARD JOHNSTON of Boston, sentenced to 10 years;

KEVIN ARTT of California, escaped from the Maze Prison and scored a home run to America;

PAUL BRENNAN of Berkeley, California, escaped the Maze Prison and scored a home run to America;

TERRY KIRKBY of California, escaped the Maze Prison and scored a home run to America.

So, on this particular PA103 anniversary, let's keep a sense of perspective when the righteous right wing spout their guff about releasing terrorists before completion of sentence.

Note also that not one of the above (other than Megrahi, mentioned in the first paragraph) was released on medical/compassionate grounds.

Last edited by Low Flier; 20th Aug 2010 at 10:07. Reason: Amended to append the US terrorists. They too should be remembered.
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Old 20th Aug 2010, 10:10   #452 (permalink)
 
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Bizarrely I get the feeling that the gruesome foursome Senators are, through their blunderings, beginning to build up a groundswell of interest in re-visiting the conviction of Al-Megrahi. The longer he lives the greater this clamour will grow - it will reach fever pitch whenever he finally gives his account of events in his forthcoming auto-biography.

LF - perhaps you should also list those murderers of other persuasions who were also released, for balance.
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Old 20th Aug 2010, 12:37   #453 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
on this particular PA103 anniversary, let's keep a sense of perspective when the righteous right wing spout their guff about releasing terrorists before completion of sentence.

Note also that not one of the above (other than Megrahi, mentioned in the first paragraph) was released on medical/compassionate grounds.


LF,

More often than not you put words into other's mouths.....to very poor effect. Once again, my advice to you is stick to your own business as you will have your hands full by that alone.

Just exactly what has made you think for even a second "right wingers", "conservatives", reasonable people, or anyone who might hold any opinion counter to yours....endorses, condones, applauds, or in any way supports early release for bombers of any ilk?

What politicians do is their business and done almost universially without the input, guidance, support, or assistance of the general public. Your grief should be with them and not the every day citizen.

You might wish to raise the question of how they are able to get away with what they do......but leave off your high perched view of the rest of us will you?
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Old 20th Aug 2010, 12:58   #454 (permalink)
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LF - perhaps you should also list those murderers of other persuasions who were also released, for balance.
"For balance":

Ronnie Biggs was released on the 1st of August last year, on compassionate grounds.

Abdelbaset Megrahi was released on the 20th of August last year, on compassionate grounds.

Biggs had 10 more years to serve of his sentence.

Megrahi had 10 more years to serve of his tariff.

Fair and balanced enough?

Here's part of an article about Biggs three weeks ago:

Quote:
Ronnie Biggs is to collect a lifetime achievement award for his services to crime... a year after he was freed early from jail as he had “only weeks to live”.

Friends insist the 81-year-old Great Train Robber will be strong enough to attend this month’s gala dinner, where he will be presented with a commemorative knuckleduster and an engraved shield with the dates of his crimes.

The event is sure to anger the family of train driver Jack Mills who never recovered from his beating in the 1963 train robbery.

A flyer showing a picture of Biggs and ex-Kray associate Roy Shaw on a fake £1 note is publicising the event, called To Rio And Back.

The serial number on the note is 080863 – the date of the £2.6m Great Train Robbery.

Former mobsters Freddie Foreman, Charlie Richardson and Dave Courtney are among the hardmen intending to go to the £50-a ticket, 500-seater event in Slough, Berks.

Courtney said: “Ronnie deserves the award as he brought a lot of enjoyment into people’s lives. He was the one that got away.”

A Ministry of Justice source said: “This is rubbing our noses in it. He was said to be seriously ill when released, now he’s off to a gala dinner with his pals.”

Biggs escaped from Wandsworth Prison in 1965 after being convicted of his part in the train robbery but fled to Brazil.

He returned to the UK in 2001 when his health deteriorated. He was jailed but later freed on compassionate grounds.
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Old 9th Oct 2010, 09:42   #455 (permalink)

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"Only a Simpleton"

A fairly open and concise summary :-

LRB · Gareth Peirce · The Framing of al-Megrahi
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Old 9th Oct 2010, 15:25   #456 (permalink)
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One thing. In the United States the "Golden Chain" is termed "The Chain of Custody".

You seem satisfied that the "defence" rejection of an attack on the chain in pleadings was "innocent".

Why?
 
Old 9th Oct 2010, 16:19   #457 (permalink)

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You will have to give me a point of reference for that one, bear !
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