"Obama shall be assassinated because of his race," a commonly-held belief according to one of our leading pundits.
Well, "Yes," given that in purely statistical terms half the general population is of sub-normal intelligence and of that half more than half seem to post here on this thread.
I need these pearls of wisdom so keep them coming, insights from outsiders into our American political process.
What's with the sniping about non-Americans having opinions about American politics? For crying out loud guys, give it a break will you?
You're on a bulletin board where you are not in a majority; ergo, the majority of opinions will be from non-Americans. Simple arithmetic.
I started this thread a year and a half ago because I was curious. You guys didn't mind curious, and I suggest you stop minding opinionated. This is the internet, this is PPRuNe, OF COURSE people are opinionated. Stop being so precious about the USA.
American politics influence world politics. Most of the punters here stem from countries where its leaders have dragged the country kicking and screaming, against the wish of the majority of the population, into America instigated wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. But we should shut up about American politics right? That'd be funny if it wasn't so dumb.
Many of us non-American citizens have lived in the States. Others have trained and got their licences there. Or gotten University degrees there. Others again have flown into and slipped at American ports for half a life-time. We have an opinion, live with it.
Most of us are incredibly fond of your country, if not of its current foreign politics. We like the USA, we just don't hink it's perfect. No need to get so darn defensive boys, no need for all the sarcasm and belittling of non-Americans.
Some of the attitudes displayed on this thread remind me of the following little episode. It plays itself out about once a month in my life, has done so for the past 7 years and my hopes for a significant change over the next 10 years are slim :
... flying into the States it is my job to distribute customs and I-94 forms. We have a nice little movie explaining it all, which I play 3 times before I start my form-laden walk down the cabin. I play the movie's sound across the PA so nobody can escape it. One of the things the movie stresses is to tell me from which country you hold a passport. Where are you from, what citizenship you hold. So I will know which forms to give you.
Simple right?
WRONG!!
About half the pax will give me a completely blank look when I appear at their seat with the forms. As if I am a fata morgana. Suddenly materialised out of nothing.
So about a 180 times per flight I go through the following little routine.
"Do you know what forms you need, or could you please tell me where you are from Sir/Madam?"
Slouching in their chair they will drawl:
"Citizen"
"We are all citizens Sir/Madam, what I need to know is of what country you are a citizen."
They then give me completely incredulous look, making it abundantly clear that they consider me a total moron and bark: "American"
Well hallelujah, I should have realised.
Of course you are.
I am on an aircraft with at least 30 nationalities, handing out an amazing number of different stupid forms that your country requires.
And if YOU don't fill them in correctly MY airline will be fined. So I am making an effort here.
Yet you expect me to be a clairvoyant who can tell where you're from just by looking at you. And you are ignorantl and/or conceited enough to think that the only fecking citizens in the world are AMERICANS.
Oh dear ........
Most of us are incredibly fond of your country, if not of its current foreign politics. We like the USA. No need to get so darn defensive boys, no need for all the sarcasm and belittling of non-Americans.
Or:
"Most of us are incredibly fond of your country, if not its current politics. We like (insert your country's name here). No need to get so darn defensive boys, no need for all the sarcasm and belittling of non-(insert your country's name here)."
I don't think most of the American ppruners mind the sarcasm and belittling that constitutes the majority of the posts about America/Americans. The same treatment meted out the other way is 'defensive' and 'not getting the humo(u)r' or 'irony.'
Pot, kettle, comm check....
Personally, I find the foreign views interesting. However, despite Juud's claim of many non-US citizens knowing how the US' electoral process works, the majority of non-US citizens here don't. And that's fine. My hackles get raised when being told how to vote by those who can do nothing but sit on the sidelines and hope it turns out their way.
How very European...
I once met a stupid/rude/clueless German/Brit/Frog/Dane/Norwegian/Aussie/Kiwi/Dutch/Swede/Swiss/your country's name here. Therefore, they must all be like that.
Well I love America, and I don't have a clue how their electoral system works, and I don't much care either so long as McCain wins, and I reckon Falps is just the best, so there.
...and it is our business, because you guys head the Free World, of which we are part, and slagging off the Government is part of what we do, whether it's yours or ours, so just suck it up, OK, because this is part of the price you pay for being The Superpower.
As long as there are folks like BlueWolf out there, I can put up with the rest of you.
While I sometimes grimmace at the ignorance, boorishness, sloth, etc, etc, demonstrated often by some of my countrymen at home and abroad, I know we certainly have no monopoly on these and other anti-virtues.
I do feel at times, more often over the past five years, though, that we are a nation the world feels free to insult and despise with impunity, often without justification or reason.
I'm not thin skinned about it, as I'm confident the quality and achievements of the US stand up on their own and don't need to be defended against the petty. You say we're terrible? Okay, whattaya got?
Opinions are fine, but mis-quotations will never do.
In that vein, I never 'quoted' Juud.
However,
Quote:
Many of us non-American citizens have lived in the States. Others have trained and got their licences there. Or gotten University degrees there. Others again have flown into and slipped at American ports for half a life-time.
certainly leads to that being the inference. It may not have been her intent, but one can reasonably make the conclusion from the above words. Certainly, that many here 'know' the United States. Some, perhaps. Most not. They have their little snapshot of wherever or whomever they encountered and that is the representation of all of the US from that point forward.
I've only been to England for a week. Does that make me an expert on the UK and its peoples? Of course not. I've only been in southern Germany for four months, do I 'know' the German people? No.
I've spent years in Japan. Do I know them all? No.
About the electoral system, HELL, most Americans don't understand beyond voting. And that eludes many, just ask anyone who voted in Broward and Palm Beach Counties in 2000. Electoral College is the classic Friday afternoon discussion on the Constitution.
jerks who assert that it is a commonly held opinion that Barack Obama shall not last long before being shot. That sort of idea belongs here a discussion that is even half informed about how we elect a President? I see...
Perhaps I have spent too long away but I always thought losing a President to a bullet was a sad anomaly, not a normal or even acceptable part of an "American Presidential Election."
Okay, just in the last 60 years we had Truman ducking for cover from Puerto Rican nationalists, JFK shot dead by a troubled loner, Ford shot at and missed by a member of the Manson Family, Reagan shot at and hit by a lunatic, Presidential candidate RFK shot by a Palestinian fanatic and candidate George Wallace shot by some guy who just felt like shooting someone, I guess... We might have a gun problem back in the U.S.A., I have to concede that point, but how much that has to do with politics per se is another question and one I really do not find appropriate here. That is all.
If you really think complaining about this sort of comment is being precious, well, okay then! I have been called worse. It is just that I really think people could bring more interesting and pertinent things to the discussion that just offering the thought that Obama is sure to be shot, mainly because lots of people think so. What, we should ask for a show of hands?
Frankly, whether most of you love, hate or just have some opinion in the middle of that range about my country, the United States of America, is all the same to me. Feel free to feel about it as you please. It is just this offering up some crashingly stupid opinion, like Fido dropping a dead rat at your feet while wagging his tail and expecting a pat on the bonce for that, that drives me to object.
We get folks with an I.Q. of room temperature here who just know that all Yanks are stupid or gun-happy or whatever just because they know that and all their friends know that and... It's stupid of me to comment on this I suppose but there you go.
Meanwhile, Obama having been unmasked as a politician, it should be interesting to see how many can live with that fact in place of hoping for a Messiah.
Have they agreed on some debates yet? Mr Angry meets the Messiah! I would almost pay money to watch that. Well, that or else the spouses getting stuck into each other. Who shall be first to whip out a tray of chocolate-chip cookies, her own recipe?
I would find it both interesting and illuminating if someone - preferably an American or better still several - could summarise for me what they think the key differences will be between Obama and McCain winning on those of us who live outside the US over the term of the next Presidency.
Genuine request; no implied criticism/agenda/opinion.
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Quote:
We get folks with an I.Q. of room temperature here who just know that all Yanks are stupid or gun-happy or whatever just because they know that and all their friends know that and... It's stupid of me to comment on this I suppose but there you go.
All I can say to that Chuks, 'in the vein of El Grifo', is that when it's 20°C here, it's 68°F over there, or as in some parts of Europe now, when it's 40°C it's 104°F over there. At least on a temperature-conversion-equivalent basis, us European morons with an IQ of 40 easily beat US morons with an IQ of say 103...go figure?!
Can I hazzard a guess selfloading, that in the highly unlikely event of McCain winning the presidency, the sound of gunshot is less likely to endlessly echo round the news stations.
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IMHO, there would be a great cacophony of resounding gunshots fired into the air all over a great part of the middle-east should Obama win, inviting immediate retaliation from Predator missiles fired at these gatherings which weren't even weddings...?! Elsewhere, people will just expel a great breath saying 'Phew' or whatever in their own languages, perhaps we can now look forward to at least 4 years which won't resemble the last 8 years...?! They will stay up 'very late into the night' and feel lousy and tired the next day, if only because they realise how special the occasion is...
Well, the way the Obama campaign continues to move "toward the center" maybe not much change. On a whole lot of issues, he seems to be running for George Bush's third term. Al-maliki moving toward asking for US withdrawal, together with the reducing violence, has been great for Obama. But, American politics and interests will dictate Obama's influence on the world, not some "happy, happy" position papers. I think asking the Germans for more German military presence in Afghanistan was a hint at where he is going. Not well received as policy. But, Obama will put a different image on America around the world and that will be well received, but will prove perishable. Neither of them are not going to deviate far from American interests, which are strongly, wrongly also, driven by domestic politics. Witness Obama's supporting comments on Israel, new opposition to Iran, backing up on Iraq withdrawal. Positions that are also McCain's. America is a conservative country, look at the continued support of Bush's policies in Congress that was supposed to be progressive Democrat.
McCain may prove to be more of a change than Obama for the simple reason, he does not have to prove himself as a leader (perhaps a "tough" guy) where Obama may have to. Remember JFK looked horrible after meeting with Khrushchev, weak, ill-prepared and manipulated, especially after failing at the Bay of Pigs. That mistake got us Cuba missiles. So, McCain may have more running room to try different diplomatic approaches than Obama. If an opening came, McCain could far more easily go to Tehran than could Obama. Much of America would see Obama going as surrender.
At the risk of repeating myself, from this side it makes little difference to most of us here what the "world's" reaction to either candidate winning will be. The issues that will affect the American voter's choice are, and always have been, 95% domestic. What will the candidate do about the economy, housing, health care, taxes, security, energy, etc. Yes, international affairs affect those issues too, but that's not how the voter will decide.
Will a lot change if Obama wins? After the elitist gloating of the European political class, and the random shooting in the air of the middle eastern rabblerousing class things will settle down. A year in, the same issues will be unresolved. Point in fact: Obama goes over, asks Germans to help out in Afghanistan a bit more, says that might help us cut military expenses. One day later German officials quoted as saying Germany won't exchange casualties in military for tax savings in America.
So I don't believe a lot will change, and Pruners will still be free to whine.
If McCain wins, there'll be more pressure on Europe to be participants rather than bystanders. Once again, nothing will change.
Bottom line: it's not important
Oh, and Ruud: if you want me to pay attention to that long winded spiel about the immigration cards, fix that bloody PA system on your plane that works fine when you're on about the seatbelts, but garbles up worse than a McDonald's drive-thru when you have something truly different to say!
Last edited by obgraham : 29th July 2008 at 18:53.
Reason: It appears that Galaxy and I have similar, but not identical opinions on this.
I'm not sure whether you are saying that it isn't important to you what any differences might be (as implied earlier in your reply), or that the differences will be so slight that the rest of us won't be able to tell the difference.
Assuming it's the latter, it seems you are both saying that policy/practice outside the US will be virtually identical whoever wins. So what are the issues that should make us care one way or the other who wins?
(I accept completely that Americans will not base their voting on what the effect on the rest of the world will be; I don't think anyone would expect any different - in a US election or an election anywhere else, for that matter)
No need to get so darn defensive boys, no need for all the sarcasm and belittling of non-Americans.
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