Gee. two people who may or may not be termed left of centre but are certainly termed left of West Coast post (err, Westy, do another quick check on the major posters on this thread) and we have to get a room?
I'm still waiting for your bet on McCain, Westy. I'll tell you what, I'll give you 7/4. Yep, that's right, $2.75 for every dollar you put on McCain. Can you make a more intelligent post now than "get a room"? I'll back it with "put up or shut up. Your man is gone. Dead. Dog meat. Put up some money to prove otherwise.
Free market example-I like the low tax policies of Hong Kong, Singapore and most of the former Eastern Bloc countries. Ireland has demonstrated the advantages of low tax and regulation. If you look at the American Legislative Council website, you can see that low tax and business regulation states are more successful (q.v.Georgia vs. Michigan) than high regulation/tax states.
To some degree, it is a relative rather than absolute. I am not for anarchy, just liberty. But more individual freedom and responsibility rather than government regulation and programs. Government safety regulation is certainly valid, but what I do with my property is my business. Rather have my HSA health program than whatever the government has in mind.
The Eastern Bloc and Ireland's success may be very much to do with favourable EU subsidy and reconstruction support allowing lower taxation but similar social spending. For most unsubsidised nations it isn't possible, and most don't have entrepot status in the way that HK or Singapore do.
High regulation works very well in social democrat nations. Sure, they don't have the boom cycle extreme, but they don't get the bust extreme either. It will be interesting to see how they thrive.
Being for liberty is nice. But some have more liberty (the wealthy) than others and with that extra liberty comes extra wealth....then we have not just financial inequality but class, cultural, democratic, security, health and lifespan inequality. That isn't liberty to me.
Bino's
I know whom I want to win and I'm sure you can figure out who that is, I'm however not sure who will win, no more than you do. However many a bet has been won on a gut instinct so you may collect. Another 30 something days and we'll have our answer. This betting thing seems to be a release for you. All the excuse me, the outsider would like to comment has been replaced by this bombastic put yer money where your mouth is attitude. Your makeover aside, being able to potentially collect on a bet doesn't strengthen the politics of BO nor does it enhance your position. It may however qualify you to go to Vegas and hang with that crowd. Actually you might want to head to Macau instead, Nevada is still a toss up state.
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two people who may or may not be termed left of centre
I so totally 110% agree. You let this "liberty" thing run rampant and you get people working extra hours, coming up with clever ideas, choosing smaller families... before you know it you have inequality rearing its ugly head with all the social ills that can bring.
No, the only true freedom, from inequality, comes from socialist rule. Everyone gets his pound of chicken every month, period. Or not, as the case may be.
To allow "liberty" to mean, uh, individual freedom, the inalienable right to the pursuit of happiness, freedom of thought, all that nonsense... that is just blind ignorance of the shining examples of true liberty that are Cuba and Venezuela and the German Democratic Republic and... What?
Sorry, make that just Cuba and Venezuela. Still, two out of three isn't bad!
Sexual liberation: Saudi Arabia has that, freedom from lust! Plus, No Poofters! That too!
As a fellow member of a mushroom farm (we watch and iteract with blippy things in a dark room), why are you willing to waste $700B on this bunch of losers who will pay the execs to vamoose?
Calvin Coolidge II (Dubya) has ruined your country and is screwng mine.
TC,
Despite what the labelers would have you believe, I believe in capitalism -- Regulated capitalism. A brief overview to sum up my position.
1929 -- Capitalism "fails". Begin Great Depression.
Depression not too bad in Russia because of Communism, world goes "Hmmmm".
World looks for a new model.
Socialsim, Communism and Fascism are all on the rise
1933 -- Enter FDR. Co-opts Socialsim and Communism by intergrating "the Left" into the Democratic Party and preventing an ugly revolution. Revolutionizes Capitalism by regulating it. Realizes it is somewhat socialistic but is willing to do what it takes to save America and Capitalism.
You know the rest of the story. We won. The Soviet Union is no more. China is doing better -- only because they are willing to compromise their ideology (Communism) to make it happen (Capitalism). Margaret Thatcher did the same for the U.K. They went too far towards Socialism (IMHO) and she yanked the chain. Perhaps too hard (again, MHO) but that is for them to say.
The moral of the story is be practical. Learn from history. Use what works. What doesn't work is ideology -- whatever it may be. Including the mythical "Free Market."
I'm not willing to "waste" $700 billion on Wall Street. I'm willing to "invest" $700 billion. And I mean that in the literal sense of the word. If I invest, I want my say in how the company is run and I want my money back -- with interest. Some will call it socialism. Whatever. Put in a time frame. Sell it back to the private market no later than 30 years from time of purchase.
In the meantime, I want the regulations put in place to make it fair, stable and honest. It can be done. We've done it before.
And just to emphasize the point...I don't want business to fail. I want the dishonest businesses to fail. (Actually, I want them crushed.) And "We the People" get to define "honest".
As Robert Reich says in his blog, there isn't a shortage of capital -- of money. There's a shortage of trust.
As for the boom/bust cycle, 8-10% unemployment in continental Europe is the norm. Here in Michigan, the worst case United State economically, we have 9% unemployment and consider it a local depression.
Some inequality is good. It makes you want to move to the upside. Despite our current economic tempest in the US, you can still go from nothing to affluence in a few years by working at it, this I know. In what I perceive as your view of a perfect world, everyone has their needs met and are secure and content in the complacency of universal equality. But that security blanket settles and settles upon you, inexorably, and the ground beneath you at some point shifts, and the fairy tale of happily ever after is met with curses from the once duped.
Your makeover aside, being able to potentially collect on a bet doesn't strengthen the politics of BO nor does it enhance your position.
Indeed, Westy. What you are conspicuously failing to understand is that I am not betting on political lines but on the odds. The odds, West Coast. I have grave doubts about either of the candidates being able to solve the current crisis. I suspect they are both lightweights, and I don't think either party can come up with anything better than a lightweight. I mean, think about it; who in god's name would want to take over the Presidency at the moment? Are they totally delusional in thinking they can make a difference? No, they want their name in lights, end of story.
Like the NY bankers, I'm only talking money here. Who gets in, what I think , what you think, they are all irrelevant. And after all, that's what you want, isn't it? The market always finds its own level?
Or are you happy with the pseudo bailout that's been announced? Pin your colours to the wall.
I think it was Friedman (Milton, that is) who put it best: If natural resources determined the wealth of a nation, then Sierra Leone would be filthy rich, and Hong Kong dirt poor.
But it isn't natural resources that make that determination; it's the form of government. If government restricts itself to guaranteeing individual liberty and contract rights, the rule of law, and enforcing property rights, then it will attract people who can and will work for prosperity. None of this wealth redistribution, free healthcare, wage & price controls etc. - they drive creative people away.
"Trickle-down"? Sure, if that's what you want to call it, but in the words of Ken Hamblin - "Pick a better country!"
You sent me searching for a web site run by Arthur Laffer ? At least I tell you when I'm sending you to Krugman's page. And here I was just dying to know how anybody would consider Georgia -- my State -- successful. We're like 50th in the States in education and a third of the kids on PeachCare -- indigent health care -- are children of Wal-Mart employees.
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I am not for anarchy, just liberty.
Enjoy the revolution that comes with the next Depression. If you think folks are fighting over gas in Georgia just wait to see what they do with over food.
Or are you happy with the pseudo bailout that's been announced?
I already have, here on this thread posted my less than enthusiastic backing of the bailout. As far as being happy with it, no not really but I haven't seen the language of the document nor of the sweeteners used to get it by in the Senate, not that I'd understand the accountants vernacular. The idea of a bailout is a shit sandwich, but one I believe has to be tasted. Before you attack, think or learn as it might be for you. Generally speaking Republicans and Dem's differ in shades on most issues, not on the direction of a given program. I think the ship would right itself eventually, but I believe the interjection will speed the process. This is in my mind consistent with my slightly right of center beliefs as far as the market applies. As with most things, the devil is in the details and proper implementation is how time will judge.
Don
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Now tell me when poverty is good.
Hope you don't think the term inequality automatically equates to poverty. Down the road there are a number of million dollar homes that I, an upper middle income white male would love to own. Down in Logan heights (San Diego ghetto)there are a number of lower middle income types that surely would like to improve their lot in life. Not denying there's not economic stratums below the middle income range, as long as you don't forget there's layers above the poverty level that long for and work hard for a better living.
GTF I gotta agree with you here on at least one point.
While I truly hate all politicians, socialists just a tiny but more, the people who abused lax regulatory oversight (yes, from both sides of the house) and prospered from rediculously irresponsible use of CDS/CDOs (it seems to me this is the elephant in the room none of the pundits seem keen to discuss on Bloomberg/CNBC) deserve a special place in hell and need to be squashed like bugs.
I have a nagging feeling that no 'plan' hatched 'poacher->gamekeeper' like by Paulson and rammed through in the manner this one has been has much hope for success.
Your linked radio interview was fascinating...how human nature guarantees history is cyclically repeated fascinates me. The interviewee, however, seemed a little to 'environmentally' biassed for my tastes. Where the free market really works is bring technology on line efficiently. Biofuels/windfarms shows us what green subsidies gets you...market distortions.
I'd be the first to agree regulations need imposing on Wall St...but I bet those you get will be overkill.
a third of the kids on PeachCare -- indigent health care -- are children of Wal-Mart employees
A perfect example of the disconnect between the cost of a commodity (service, product...) and its price to the client. When health care is free, it tends to be abused - go to the ER for a hangnail - just because it is free.
The same thing - THE SAME THING - happened in housing. No questions asked, no down payment, interest-only loans - the price of housing became TOTALLY disconnected from its true cost. How did that work out for you, anyway?
A preliminary list of some of the pork in the bailout. I mean for fecks sake
The original 700 Billion can now be 700 billion 'at any one time'.
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What started as a three-page “blank check” request for $700 billion to buy “toxic” assets on Wall Street, has now passed the Senate as a 451-page pork-laden piece of detritus. Ian sifted through the table of contents for tax exemptions and picked out a few of his favorites:
Sec. 101: Extension of alternative minimum tax relief for nonrefundable personal credits.
Sec. 102: Extension of increased alternative minimum tax exemption amount.
Sec. 201: Deduction for state and local sales taxes.
Sec. 202: Deduction of qualified tuition and related expenses.
Sec. 203: Deduction for certain expenses of elementary and secondary school teachers.
Sec. 204: Additional standard deduction for real property taxes for nonitemizers.
Sec. 205: Tax-free distributions from individual retirement plans for charitable purposes.
Sec. 304: Extension of look-thru rule for related controlled foreign corporations.
Sec. 305: Extension of 15-year straight-line cost recovery for qualified leasehold improvements and qualified restaurant improvements; 15-year straight-line cost recovery for certain improvements to retail space.
Sec. 307: Basis adjustment to stock of S corporations making charitable contributions of property.
Sec. 308: Increase in limit on cover over of rum excise tax to Puerto Rico and the Virgin Islands.
Sec. 309: Extension of economic development credit for American Samoa.
Sec. 310: Extension of mine rescue team training credit.
Sec. 311: Extension of election to expense advanced mine safety equipment.
Sec. 312: Deduction allowable with respect to income attributable to domestic production activities in Puerto Rico.
Sec. 314: Indian employment credit.
Sec. 315: Accelerated depreciation for business property on Indian reservations.
Sec. 316: Railroad track maintenance.
Sec. 317: Seven-year cost recovery period for motorsports racing track facility.
Sec. 318: Expensing of environmental remediation costs.
Sec. 319: Extension of work opportunity tax credit for Hurricane Katrina employees.
Sec. 320: Extension of increased rehabilitation credit for structures in the Gulf Opportunity Zone.
Sec. 321: Enhanced deduction for qualified computer contributions.
Sec. 322: Tax incentives for investment in the District of Columbia.
Sec. 323: Enhanced charitable deductions for contributions of food inventory.
Sec. 324: Extension of enhanced charitable deduction for contributions of book inventory.
Sec. 325: Extension and modification of duty suspension on wool products; wool research fund; wool duty refunds.
Sec. 401: Permanent authority for undercover operations [as related to tax provisions].
Sec. 402: Permanent authority for disclosure of information relating to terrorist activities [as related to tax provisions].
Sec. 501: $8,500 income threshold used to calculate refundable portion of child tax credit.
Sec. 502: Provisions related to film and television productions.
Sec. 503: Exemption from excise tax for certain wooden arrows designed for use by children.
Sec. 504: Income averaging for amounts received in connection with the Exxon Valdez litigation.
Sec. 505: Certain farming business machinery and equipment treated as five-year property.
Sec. 506: Modification of penalty on understatement of taxpayer’s liability by tax return preparer.
Sec. 601: Secure rural schools and community self-determination program.
Sec. 602: Transfer to abandoned mine reclamation fund.
Sec. 702: Temporary tax relief for areas damaged by 2008 Midwestern severe storms, tornados and flooding.
Sec. 704: Temporary tax-exempt bond financing and low-income housing tax relief for areas.
Sec. 709: Waiver of certain mortgage revenue bond requirements following federally declared disasters.
Sec. 710: Special depreciation allowance for qualified disaster property.
Sec. 711: Increased expensing for qualified disaster assistance property.
Seriously, did they think no one was going to read this thing? “Increase in limit on cover over of rum excise tax to Puerto Rico and the Virgin Islands”? “Seven-year cost recovery period for motorsports racing track facility”? “Extension and modification of duty suspension on wool products; wool research fund; wool duty refunds”?
It’s one thing to drown a piece of legislation with pork. But the urgency laid on thick by the administration and Sen. Gregg over the last two days all but guaranteed even armchair economists like yours truly would be reading this thing line by line.
C’mon, fellas. Couldn’t you be a little more discreet? Guess you just couldn’t help yourselves.
The definition of 'poverty' in western liberal terms is simply being in a lower percentile of affluence vs the higher percentiles within the same sample set of your fellow citizens.
That means that 'poverty' in western liberal terms is a chronic state. It is an ever present statistic that is mathematically impossible to reduce. Doesn't stop career lefties from saying their mission in life is to eradicate poverty but then what layman would argue against that as a mission statement? The fact that it is impossible under their own definition of poverty is nevertheless relentlessly exploited by the same lefties as an argument for their 'job is never done' and that they are 'committed to ending poverty' against the evil oppression of the free market..
Are they f*ck. They want votes and it's a numbers game pure and simple. They succeed in fooling some of the people all of the time with this one so it still has legs somehow...
etc. - they drive creative people away.
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