Well done to the 57 or thereabouts percent who saw sense, lets hope as Drapes says that it is allowed to remain so, and that we are allowed to make the same decision when B Liar gets on his high horse...
Don't worry, they'll make them do it again till they vote the way they're told.
I'll already heard one report with a grey haired expert saying that normally there would have to be a period of 10 years before the issue would be raised again, but, since the vote was affected by the present tragic circumstances, a new vote could be held within 1 or 2 years.
Yup - looks like the powers that be are getting ready for another go in Denmark - we are going to have referendums (referendi ???) until you are so p*ss*d off with them you give in
Like what they did in Eire regarding the Treaty of Nice
OK, **deep breath** here are some (and only some) of the for & against arguments.
For:-
A single currency reduces exchange rate uncertainty - this is very good for business & financial service markets, since there will be fewer nasty surprises trading across borders.
Theoretically, there would be less volatility in interest rates as one central bank would be dictating policy for the eurozone rather than for individual countries.
One single currency & one single market would make Europe a global power economically & would create freer trade across European borders.
It would strengthen the European identity (if you like that sort of thing)
It would enable the Euro to compete with dollar & the Yen.
Even handed as I am noted for being, the arguments against:
There is a loss of individual state monetary policy - remember the ERM?
Currency Unions have collapsed in the past - remember the ERM?
It isn't definitely sustainable & there is really no model to compare or history to draw upon in respect of the design of the Euro scheme.
Exchange rates can buffer countries against economic shocks taking place in other countries - the Euro would preclude this within the zone.
There can be no member state devaluation to stimulate failing economies.
High UK home ownership makes us more sensitive to interest rate changes - therefore it may be politically unacceptable to the UK electorate.
It has performed weakly against the pound & dollar so far, although take up in Europe may be a factor in this.
Member states don't always folow the strict economic rules - Portugal for example has defaulted on it's borrowing limits threatening the unity of the scheme.
There y'are, some for's & against's Ask me another & BTW I'm still all for it.
But y'see BFU, they might say the same thing about us lot. I think for me, where the Euro always comes unstuck is on the inability to see beyond the nationalistic part.
I think by far & away the greater danger is the lack of provision for member states that get into trouble - no devaluation, UK home ownership rates and so on. No, I think that is the trouble & yet I can also see that we'd have a hand in it's running as much as the next nation state - I find it hard to reconcile being in the European Union & not being in the single currency. I think the other great problem with the Euro is that it over focuses on Business & commerce & fails to address the social aspects of monetary policy to anything like the same degree. However, as a business owner, I vote with my wallet.
Any idea why we would want a currency to compete with the Dollar or the Yen? Sometimes both of these nations have problems with the strength or weakness of their currency, problems shown also by the Euro. Europhiles said how good it would be to have a strong currency. The Euro came along and was weak and damaging European insward investment. They said how bad a strong currency was. Now the Strength of the Euro is damaging European manufacturing industry, and it is again good to have a strong currency. All the while the Dollar was doing exactly the opposite. Which currency kept an even keel right through the middle, maintaining growth despite chaotic fiscal policy in the nation? Sterling.
It is not just Portugal that cannot keep to the rules. Germany is unable to and France has taken it's ball back and officially won't play. The two largest economies in the Euro.
The interest-rate problem is more important than Para points out. The current interest rate is doing great damage to Germany for which it is too high, which is threatened with deflation that the stability pact prevents the government from spending out of (they don't obey it as I say, but they keep as close as they can. German voters would give them a very hard time indeed if they looked too irresponsible after the promises made and broken so far) and lack of a true central bank makes this difficult in any case. Unfortunately the interest rate is too low for Ireland which is suffering strong inflation. We would be suffering the same problem had we joined the Euro.
Note all these interest rate problems and currency screw-ups are fairly predictable. Not only does that suggest that pro-Euro politicians and bureaucrats are negligent in not putting them openly to the public before a referendum in each nation, not only does it suggest they are either incompetents or disingenous liars, but it means that rich, canny men have made a fortune.
It is no wonder that many of the wealthy individuals have shown enthusiasm, when any strain in economies can be exploited by people rich enough to take a stake in fluctuations and to pay to be informed. The mechanism is not one relevant to the Euro, but the forcing of Britain out of the ERM is an unusual case of a very open exploitation of this kind.
Sorry Para, I agree you made an attempt to be fair, but I see some of your "for" points being really "against" (your first, for example). The remaining points "for" begin to look a little weak
Just wait untill all the new member states, the former soviet union satellites with third world agricultural systems start holding their hands out,every Frenchman who keeps a couple of chickens, or has half a dozen turnips growing in his garden will no longer be able to claim a subsidy for his farm, then we will see the provobial hit the fan. I am really really looking forward to the coming chaos in the EEC with joy in my heart.
Thanks Parapunter - but if I was asked to vote tomorrow my answer would have to be no. I still remember the disaster of the ERM and one N. Lamont behaving like a one legged kangaroo in a swamp, trying to extricate himself and us from a god awful mess.
Ok so maybe I look at this from a purely personal perspective but I wish the uk would join in the Euro fun. As an expat in Europe it would make life for me a damn site easier.
But from an overall perspective, I would say this. Surely it is better to be included in the majority than to opt out and go it alone. As a principal I believe the whole idea behind the Euro is too idealogical and theoretical but since its introduction over here it has gone basically ok. Countries still maintain power over their own financial governings, we are not at the beck and call of Brussels, and in fact whereas I was against it before it arrived, I kinda like it now its here. I am by no means a financial wizard, so I cant comment on the technical side of it, just as a "man on the street."
We Brits are very full of national pride, and quite rightly, but joining the Euro is not giving way to Foriegn Rule as the tabloids would have you believe. It is a reality which should be acknowledged and dealt with.
Surely it is better to be included in the majority than to opt out and go it alone
Why?
Quote:
joining the Euro is not giving way to Foriegn Rule as the tabloids would have you believe
It is, and must inevitably be. Fiscal and monetary policy have huge political importance, and the Euro would massively affect these. You may not notice it, it may even have a beneficial effect where you have seen those effects, but we don't want that interference.
We are giving way to rule from Brussels a bit at a time,this is how it is being done, entry into the Euro is a pretty large bit. We are ruled by a complete bunch of tossers here, but at least they have the merit of being our own tossers.
I think Norman knew that our being in the ERM was unsustainable, and we would be in even deeper crisis, and exit was a good option. Even he, as a polictician, had no idea how good leaving would be for the UK economy. There is no 'shelter' in the Euro. If the UK economy doesn't match the rest of Europe, the strains will be immense. Either we will have raging inflation or recession whilst denied the means to take national action to reduce the effects. I cannot see the advantage- European Banks are still playing funny games about transferring cheques across Euro countries, and the Euro has given a burst of inflation across Europe as traders took advantage of people not understanding the new values. As a trading block, it's not exactly impressive, is it, and all the while, the French are rewriting the economic rules of the Eurozone to suit themselves. Far far better out of it! When the Euro does a European wide collapse, and the Germans rue the day they gave up their Mark, we should be watching from outside !
I have just read the first part of this thread and was about to make a comment along the lines of ... How refreshing to see the fiscal pros and cons of the Euro being sensibly debated by well informed and intelligent people without the jingoistic cobblers al a Daily Liar (sorry Mail) that insults the individuals who just want the facts to help them (me) make up their minds.
Then I read on!
For the record I don't know if the Euro is a good thing or not, but at least the Swedes managed to conduct a ballot based on fact and not "we won the war blah, blah...." "bl00dy frogs gibber, gibber" " "I want the queens head on me cash wail,wail" nonsense.
The euro debate is not just about being easier to travel abroad or even about the ability of british business to be competative. The euro will be one mighty big step on the way to federalism of the worst kind, with much of Europe being led by the nose by unelected officials, namely the Commission. There is an almost suicidal trend in Europe towards more detailed regulation in commeercial spheres, particularly employment. High interest rates were blamed on this thread for Germany's woes, but this is only half the story. The biggest obstacle to economic restructuring in Germany is highly restrictive labour laws, which make it prohibitably expensive to lay off workers or to inject effeciencies into the system. Other European countries have similar problems. In addition their generous social security systems and their pension provisions are going to leave huge deficits which the major countries are simply not addressing. What this will do for euro-stability is anyones guess.
One reason why Europe wants us in is that at the moment we have a competative edge because we are relatively un-bureaucratic compared with mainland Europe, making it easier to set up in business here than elsewhere. If we adopt the euro this will surely change.
