Am I mad?
 

First time poster looking for any advice or input.

I'm a forty year old man in a stable job, earning a reasonable salary, with a young family. I'm looking at undertaking full flight training (PPL through to Multi IR) in Ireland. It would be a struggle to come up with the funds and to keep things ticking over for the duration of the training, but it would be doable.

I was told that should I be successful, there would be opportunities, even for someone of my age with someone like Aer Arann or one of the cargo airlines.

I need some opinions on the wisdom of such an undertaking, in terms of future job opportunities, my age and family status etc. Am I mad?

Trayman,

I would say, with a young family and just enough cash to get yourself through training, stay where you currently are.

There are tons of people out there with 250hrs and they all want that job. Not only that there are also a lot of high-time qualified people out there as well. Spanair, Malev and Astraeus recently went bust, all these guys are now out there looking for another job.

If you were to be one of the lucky few to get hired out of flight school, you'd probably end paying for your type rating as well, with companies like Ryanair, that's another £25000 to add to your training costs.

If you are not hired on to a jet or larger type TP after training, expect to stay on small pistons not earning very much before moving up to bigger planes.

All in all, in my opinion, with a young family to support, it's not worth risking it.

My advice would be to take a trial lesson, see if you like it, possibly get your PPL and keep flying as a hobby.

These are just my thoughts though, and I'm currently just a private pilot working my way up the ladder with a goal to one day get paid to fly. I'm sure there will be others around with a different opinion, but ultimately it's up to you and your family. Good luck with whatever you decide.

Personally, IMHO, yes.

For sure, you do have a chance with Aer Arran and so on, maybe even more should you be so lucky.

However, you MUST weigh up the "cons". The "pros" are obvious. :)

The cost. Will you earn your costs back? You're 40ish. Yes, that gives you 20 or so years to earn the money back. However, when you're in your 40s you should be earning maybe 30-40K already. You may only be earning 18-25K for 5+ years. If you're lucky...

Factor in the costs of training versus family holidays, presents and the like.

Now, the view from the LHS of a jet is pretty good. Amazing actually. However, starting at 40 odd with a young family etc just may be too expensive. Your family is really the most precious thing you have.

You must look at it with an objective eye.
If you can weigh it all up honestly and believe it's worth it, then go for it.
Look up GAPAN and do their tests.
Good luck.

Hey,

welcome to our forum.


"I was told that should I be successful, there would be opportunities, even for someone of my age with someone like Aer Arann or one of the cargo airlines."

How told you this?

The problem will not be getting through with training. Obviously by looking at todays situation we see that we have to many fresh graduates.
So training is the easy part, as long as you have money.

The hard part is to actually score a job. Look around in the forum and you will see a lot of people having a hard time.
Of course there are some exceptions, but they are note so many in my opinion.

Because of todays market, as I stated, some airlines are taking advantage of the situation by requiring cadets paying for own type rating. That is today pretty much standard for most carriers.
Sadly, like having the burden of an extra expense of 20000EUR wasn't enough it's becoming more and more popular for carriers to require a minimum of 500hrs on type before you can join. In that case some carriers, charge you for this "training" as well, putting that 20000EUR extra expense to around 50000EUR. Don't forget that you already have put around 40-60000EUR for your initial training, if you are even lucky to get away with that.

Now, since it seems like today, most of the cadet "pilots" have unlimited supply of fresh money, 500hrs on type will put you right back on the street to make way for a new fresh graduate ready to pay that airline. Let face it, why should they hire you after those 500hrs, when there is a long line of people behind?

Im sorry if my response seem grim, I just wanted to give you my view of the story, from the inside.
Some FTOs like to twist and turn the story for their own profit, and who can blame them? They have set up an business to make money. And this is how they "lure" people in.
Not lure maybe, because I hope that most of the pilots are smart enough and can get a picture of their own before making a decision to join this so called profession.
If you are still interested in joining after you get you OWN picture, then go ahead.
Im not trying to discourage you in any way. I just hope that you can stick around on this forum and get a glimpse. Try talking to pilots you meet in the FTOs etc. But what ever you do, NEVER trust what the FTOs are telling you. Believe me, I currently work in an FTO, and get sometimes sick when I hear what the sellers are saying to the "prospects"

If you need any more asistance, please. We are all here in this forum for you, and eachother.

Not mad but its a bigger risk doing it at 40 then at 30 or 20 due to the reasons already mentioned (low starting wage etc.) plus you saying that you only just will be able to afford it is not ideal, due to the the fact that you will always be spending more rather than less on the training to get a job (type rating etc or exam retakes) .

My advice like an another poster would be to get a class 1 medical to rule out any potential problems and do a PPL, weigh up the industry in 12 months time and take it from there. 2 airlines have just gone bust in a matter of weeks, which means that the already surplus of pilots out there trying to get work has doubled or tripled in a matter of weeks, its not looking too good not just for yourself but anybody looking to do an ATPL.

However the forecasts are that the demand for new pilots in the next 10 years will be great, but make that as you will.

Yes you are mad, but than if we had not been mad, we would not have been on these forums looking for advice.

However with no flight experience, even at PPL level, I would do as others suggest get class 1 medical, get your PPL, do some hours PPL, you have to anyway for your hour building, and than decide before you spend the big money and time on ATPL theory, CPL/ME/IR - as this not just cost you much money, but also time, loss of earnings etc. during training period.

Than again if you don't try, you will never know, however if you do go into it, go into it with your eyes wide open, and know the numbers before you start. Expect at least to spend around £70.000 -£80.000 as rough guide (includes a Type Rating in that price - modular training) , and don't expect to get this money back trough flying.

And if you lucky and get a job, expect it to take at least 5 to 10 years before you will have decent earnings.

With those facts at hand, decide if you are mad or not! Remember you are not the only mad one on here, there are many of us! :8

Yes you are mad. Seriously forget it. You have a family and responsibilities and frankly it sounds like you are not in a position to take a gamble like this with very long odds. It would be a very selfish thing to do to risk you family's financial well being. You are too old, get over you middle age crisis and focus on what is best for your family rather than some pipe dream you are 10-15 years too late pursuing. Fine get a PPL and see how much cash just that can suck out of your family's savings (you will be amazed at how GBP 150 an hour in a crappy cessna eats cash that could be put towards yours kids futures).

Frankly it is unlikely you will ever make a "living wage" even if you land a job as a TP First officer. Wake up and smell the coffee, thats the reality. :ok:

Unless you have VERY VERY good connections in some airline, and when I mean very good, I mean the good that guarantees you a job as soon as you finish training, then DO NOT DO IT! You must be insane even thinking about it...

Ask yourself these 3 questions:

1. Do I have good connections in some airline?

2. Do I have a laaaarge amount of money just sitting around?

3. If I decided to do it and then can't find a job, will I have even more money sitting around to go do a type rating?

If you answer NO, to all of these 3 questions, then I would HONESTLY, SINCERELY and TRULY suggest that you do not even think about this again.. Because you WILL destroy your life, and your families...:=

Sorry Trayman..
 

..based on your exiaiting personal circumstances I would respectfully suggest that this is the time for you to be cautious..in fact very cautious. The job market is currently exremely difficult..and could get a good deal worse. Why weigh yourself down with huge debt and maybe even jeopardise what you've already worked long and hard for?

You could of course go for your PPL and see how you feel then..

Good luck all the same.... sorry to rain on your parade

Madness. Airlines are going bust all over the place and pay for newbies has plummeted. Do not expose your kids to the misery of it all.


It really isn't worth it.


WWW

Got to agree with other posters on here, don't do it

There's good money to be made at the end of a 40 year career in this business but realistically if you're 40 already and looking at something like an ATR F/O as the starting option, you've only got 20 years to make a career out of it, and on turboprop F/O wages it will take a bloody decade to even clear the training debts and get back to zero, you're lining yourself up fair and square to be broke or at least having money worries all your life including your retirement. And that's without taking the kids' future needs into consideration.

The amount of focus and sacrifice that's required to get into this business is hard enough in your twenties when you've got no other commitments, it's damn near insurmountable when you've got a family to think about. Yes it's cool to fly airliners - sometimes - but trust me, it's not so cool that I wouldn't turn my back on it in a heartbeat if it meant jeopardizing my kids' future options

Truth about flying...
 

Someone, some time ago told me this:

Flying will empty your wallet,
Flying will empty your bed
FLYING WILL FILL YOUR LIFE!

I did not believe him then:ugh: but I do now :cool:

I have just finished modular CPL, SEP, MEP, IR whilst in full time job and searching for first flying job.
Since start of training I've got divorced, changed job, been unemployed for five month, had to move for new job from Stansted to East Midlands and so far had no answer for single application.

But you know what? I would do it again...:ok:

I started flying young but struggled with lack of funding. Same old story. Eventually qualified but ended up out of flying for a while. Came back to it though in my mid forties and actually got my first job. Not an airline job though. So the pay is derisory to the point where my wife subsidises me.

While it is true that inexperienced pilots over forty do go onto the likes of Aer Arann and for Air Contractors. They are the exception and usually have funded their own TR. SVoa mentioned good contacts, in Ireland it's the only way but no guarantees.

Another issue with your age is that you will struggle with the exams. That applies all the way through the experience right through getting your TR. You will always be a bit behind all the young pups. Same with the flying. It just takes that bit longer to learn everything and then re-learn it when you forget.

When I came back to flying even with previous experience of a CPL/Multi/IR and nearly 400 hours. I couldn't fly straight and level or turn or keep a heading. I persevered and when I flew my CPL renewal flight test. I was so convinced that I had failed that walking across the ramp afterwards. I was considering my options away for flying. When the Examiner said I had passed, I was almost casting doubts on his judgement. However he was right as it turned out. I am damm good:cool: But even with all that experience it was hard to get it back.

Anyway my point is that you WILL struggle. There's no doubt about that.

But as others have said if you really want it. Go for it, but have no illusions. Also make sure your wife has no illusions either. My wife no longer has any, let me tell you.

But one thing, you will enjoy the flying. No doubt about that. But is it enough?

"corsair"

I do not agree with your points about struggling with the exams, as in my class doing ATPL's, the older guys had all the best pass rates, and they was 50,43 and 41, all had averages above 95%, while the younger guys where I was did not get that good. All first time passes on CPL/ME/IR also.

However yes, things takes a little longer time, so I agree with this. So you have to prepare yourself that bit more!

Because no flying experience at all, I would say at least try PPL first, because you might discover you don't enjoy flying after PPL, so why worry about all the rest in advance!

There are various levels of career you could choose, like going into instructing, which will be an "easier" path! Still not easy to get a job with that either, and pay is very bad!

I believe that you will be taking a massive liberty with your children's future. Don't do it.

As all have said, you need to factor in self funding a type rating and subsidising a poor initial wage - that is, if you are even lucky enough to get a job within a couple of years of finishing. Don't be fooled into thinking that getting a job on a TP or freight is any easier, despite what schools tell you. Competition for all entry level jobs is fierce and someone in their 20s is probably in a better position to sell their soul / grandmother and probably both to secure their first job than someone with a young family and commitments.

Don't under estimate the pressure and strain circa 2 yrs of training will put on your relationship and family life - eating, breathing and sleeping 'flying' is hard with a wife and family. I agree that the theory exams may not be any harder for you once you get over the going back to school mentality that is needed. But the flying at IR level does not come as naturally as it does to the 20 something 'pups' that someone said.

There is no denying that it would be an extremely tough journey for you and without almost guaranteed employment up your sleeve, I wouldn't subject yourself or your family to it. I really wish I could say something different.

You have left it a bit late. I'd never belittle your dream - but the best you can probably expect is a regional job, where the pay barely rewards the cash you have put in already.

Don't say pay doesn't count because a year down the line it sure as hell would...

Trayman,

I'm in a similar position to you except I have a PPL an the funds for modular. I looked at cadet schemes and integrated but to be honest, they're not worth it to me. Even with the 'pseudo promise' of a job.

I would do your PPL and try and apply your experiences of it to a commercial operation and see if you still want to go ahead; I know I do.

The way I see it:
-If I stop chasing the dream after my hour building and ATPL theory, I'll have hours I would have paid for anyway and greater knowledge.
-If I stop chasing the dream after my CPL, I'll have hours (slightly more expensive ones) that I would have paid for anyway and be a better, more qualified GA pilot.
-If I stop chasing the dream after my IR, I'll have hours I probably wouldn't have bothered paying for, but I'll be an even more experienced GA pilot with some privileges to suit. I would have wasted no more money than my mate did a few years ago trashing his motorbike at a track day!

I've been plodding along on this journey for 2 years now and have had a good time; I don't have great expectations, but who knows where it will lead.

So my advice to you is; do you really want to? If you do - get stuck in, take it one step at a time, you're a long time dead my friend.

Believe me after you have finished it all, GA flying becomes a hassle, because you not sure where you will need money next!

That is the sad thing after doing all the training, which is fun, do you spend money on sim training? do you save for TR? Do you do FIC? So many questions after, than you get the renewals, number one is fine, but as time goes, you need to think every step what is good to spend money on!

I am 42 myself, and finished 12 months ago, not a sniff at a job!

Doing ATPL theory, requires a lot of work, I did full time, 6 hours at school + 4 - 5 hours at home, 5 to 6 days a week for 6 months, distance learning will take more time, which you don't have.

Doing modular, which is the only economical way, will take you around 18 to 24 months, if you manage to be really hard working.

So it is not just about the money, do you have the time to spare? Do you have 8 to 10 hours of your day, that you can spend on studying for 6 months?

Sorry to hear that Truckflyer, and indeed time is ticking!

Probably best leave the IR until happier days maybe. The rest is still worth it IMO if it's what you want to do.