Interviews, jobs & sponsorshipDo ya feel lucky, Punk? Well do ya? If so, here's the place to swap the hot gen on who's sponsoring or employing, their selection criteria, and where those oh so elusive first jobs can be spotted in the wild. Watch out for the tumbleweeds...
Depends on the time, on my 509 course which finish 3 years ago, everyone on the course was around the 200/300 hour mark, and we all got jobs within a year, but I know that at the moment very few 200 hour people are getting jobs, so it all depends on the cycle, I was told that in the real boom years of 97 to 99 people were going from a 172 to a 737 but these are just stories and I haven't met any of the people myself.
Thanks folks, good replies coming in so far- and some very encouraging ones- particularly Batty, as I am 33 myself and considering whether to go for it. Might do the OFT florida thing followed by modular (not distance) at Cranfield. I guess I would be worth another 30 years work should I ever get a job!
Keep 'em coming - and let us know where you did your training, what kind of training, etc etc - particularly Batty!
I can't help myself from asking this but your profile says you have an ATPL, yet if you had 165 hours last June. that would mean you would have done 166 hours a month to get to 1500 hours by the end of Feb 2003. I would jump ship - you are being flogged too hard!!!!
ok Lemon, wich airline are you flying for couse I don`t think I`m gonna fly them in the future You had 170 hrs and oyu got a 73 job. I use to have instrument students who had more time than that.But I guess things in the US are different.
A lot of FI are a little sceptical about these people sitting in the right seats.Usual people with 300 hrs just bearly master all the instrument skills. There is a reason why people dont just hop from a 172 to 73. Well, until all goes well...Don`t even wanna think about a serious emergency.But that is just my opinion.I`m sure your CAA considers you highly trained pro.
Things in the US are indeed very different. Having done a JAR-FCL license(ab-initio) and then a US Part 61 conversion to obtain equivalent FAA licenses and ratings, I can see your point of view.
Theory wise, you will find a JAA/UK CAA Frozen ATPL holder has just far more knowledge than an FAR141 trained counter part. As for flying, I also think that a JAA (IR) is far more challenging than an FAA instrument rating. We had guys with 1500+ hours on learjets Part 135 ops who had tough time passing their IR conversions in the UK. The only exception to this is guys trained at ERAU or UND or WMU in the US. They know a lot and I think their bachelor’s degrees in aeronautical sciences are placing them well in the US. But then again you are comparing 4 years to 13-17 months course. No wonder Delta started a similar scheme with WMU where cadets will fly the line in under 18 months from zero flight time. Also under JAA you need an MCC certificate before you can hold a CPL.
The systems (FAA and JAA) are different in the training aspects of student pilots nevertheless I still think that the JAA system helps in many ways prepare guys for jobs on B737’s and similar types at the end of their training.
Well done with only 165 hours, I still think that is a bit low in terms of hours, I thought you needed at least about 180-190 hours in the integrated course.
I know a guy from south east Asia who went straight into a 733 job in his home country with only about 200 hours, he had a CAP509 course completed and waited for about 6-8 months before he got in…
I don't think lemon is counting his sim time, with 40 hrs approved sim it would be quite possible to complete a JAA integrated course and have the minimum requirements for an initial type rating. There is a difference between the US licence and the JAA one. I think the european licence holder will be at least as proficient of an instrument pilot as the american one, but may not have the same visual handling skills as his american counterpart with more GA hours.
I am low hours f/o with a cargo company flying the F27 and find it a little harsh for someone to pipe up and say that anyone with less than 300hrs would be incompetant in an emergency, we must remember that most commercial aircraft are:
1) fitted with a Captain!! 2) require a lengthy and rigorous type rating course 3) you have to be able to pass the type rating to get it on your license!!
Yes we low hours guys may be less experienced but most are just as capable just don't have the hours that others do. In my company there is a culture of the F/o taking the controls (at the captains say so) in an emergency in order for the more experienced person to deal with the emergency. Also we operate a system of monitored approaches where in poor weather conditions the F/o will fly the approach with the Capt. taking the aircraft at decision should terra firma be sighted! Surely this suggests that the F/O is capable of handling the aircraft in a difficult approach safely down to minima's and thus being a 'highly trained pro'
I got a turpbprop job with 252hrs (3 months after my CAP 509 course) I had a PPL before. Then at 700 hrs (2.5 years ago) I got a right hand seat job flying B757s. It can be done!! A very good mate has 200hrs and has just got his first job on an A320/321!!!
LOSTCOMM:- If people with 200 hrs are not good enough then why isn't there a rash of accidents in the UK and other countries that employ this policy? reason is, it's not rocket science, if you recieve good training there is no reason why you can't do it.
Lostcomm: Do you not think that a low hours guy has to cope with emergencies in the sim as part of his/her type rating??
Do you not think that the military take zero hour guys and gals and turn them into fast jet pilots with little more than 200 hours? They are then activly placed in situations where they will encounter emergencies...ie war zones....
Sorry your right... it is obiously realy important that you have 1500 hours single flying to fly a modern jet airliner...now let me find a field big enough to get this 737 into...
Slowstarter - if my dad's last name was Ryan or O'Leary then why didn't Ryanair give me a job? I'm not with them.
Lostcomm - askyoda is right - I wasn't counting sim time. And FYI sponsored courses (BA, EI, Finnair, BMI, etc) put their cadets into a flying school where you can get a fATPL with as little as 160 hours and an MCC course and from there the cadets go straight into a type rating course.
Concordino - I'm not sure what the actual minimum is but I had 165 and another guy in my class who incidentally has a job in the RHS of a 737 in the same company I'm with, finished with 160 hours.
I did however, have 60 hours of 737 sim time before I started my type rating which helped a lot, but as I said above, sponsored cadets would just have the 20 from the MCC and then go straight into a type rating.
but over here in mexico it is the norm for pilots to start out in airlines such as Mexicana or Aeromexico right out of school when they rarely have more 200 hours.
It is a fact that this does not affect safety, one of these Airlines belongs to the Star Alliance and they are both among the largest in Latin America, (Aeromexico has been the most punctual airline in the world for several years.) they both have a good safety record.
I had an excoworker who (jose messer) who at the age of 25 was 757 instructor pilot in Seattle and was captian in every LearJet there was. Don´t believe me call Boeing.
Anbody that tells you low time copilots affect safety to a considerable degree doesn´t know what he is talking about, they are just jealous, flying planes is almost idiotproof, its mostly about checklists, procedures, there´s not a lot of thinking left for the pilot, its mostly about sticking to the book, and you could almost train monkeys to do this, me being one of them.
A few years back after flying helicopters for a while, I decide to try the ¨stiff wing¨ route, I had only my FAA CPL with about 190 hours in piston Cessna´s and Piper´s, I had not flown an airplane in 6 years and 8 days after I turned in my resume I was in FlightSafety in Wichita taking the Beechjet 400A initial pilot course with another guy from my same company that had only 180 hrs.
That was fun, we drove our instuctor nuts he couldn´t believe all the stupid things we were doing and we never once got killed! (in the level D simulator) On our very first take off he said ¨cleared for takeoff, maintain RWY HDG and 3000 feet¨so we took off and and after a few seconds we were passing 10,000 feet, gear and flaps still down listening to the overspeed warning horn and we both had this huge grin in our face as we felt it was ¨sooo cooool!¨he then reminded us we had to stay at 3000, reduce power and retract gear/flaps looong ago, and my sim partners response was ¨where does it say how high we are?¨ then I started looking for the gear lever which I was sure was somewhere to be found.
I remember during stall practice at something like 20,000 feet we entered a spin, and leveled out about 300 feet AGL, the instructor said ¨I was scared, I thought we were gonna die¨
After 2 weeks and lot of simulator time we ended up passing the course, and after a year and 600 hours we started flying the B400A from the Left seat, I only stayed for a little more than a year, am now back to flying helicopters, I hated flying planes but my sim partner is now close to upgrading to the Hawker 800XP and also flies the Falcon 2000 SIC.
If the US navy has 400 hrs. pilot landing on a carrier at night on an F14, why shouldn´t a 20 year old fly a slow dull turboprop or passenger jet into a perfectly good airport with all the help in the world.
Wow, I guess I realy hit a nerve here. It`s true what you guys say flying a plane is idiotproof these days. I take a lot of stuff back, but I was just so surprised when I saw the flight time that people get into an airline. A couple of years ago when I was a flight instructor I saw a lot of pilots that after the completed course were still realy green, but I guess the fact that there are no more accidents speaks for it self. I`m sure Lemon will make a great pilot one day, I just hope that he realizes that he has a lot to learn. And by-the-way Batty I dont know what your flight time but it can`t be realy high couse if it would be then you would realize that is the expecience in the air that realy counts, not just the time of the plane you are flying.I`m on a big plane now and I must say that I can realy benefit from all the flight time I had done before that. It is the situations that oyu get yourself into. And military is military my friend, they dont cary 300 people in the back.And if they crash the do a cover uand that is that.And I guess the Germans were realy smart when they were sending people with 15 hrs to go end kill them selfs at the end of the war. So dont even go there.It is a stupid comparison.