Legality of Amy Johnson Initiative - Equality Act 2010
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 4
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Legality of Amy Johnson Initiative - Equality Act 2010
I know this has been posted on here before, but I cannot believe EZY are still chipping away at it.
As a disclaimer, I have nothing against female pilots, and I too want to see more women in aviation.
What I do have a problem with though, is what easyJet is doing by underwriting training loans, in excess of £100k, for female candidates and not for their equally, or perhaps even more, well-qualified and merited male counterparts.
I know for a fact I'm not the first person to say this, and I won't be the last but pilots should be selected on merit alone, regardless of your age, shape, race or what you have (or don't) between your legs.
I put it to easyJet that they may be in breach the Equality Act 2010 - which was adapted in 2011 to allow 'positive action' - making it legal to promote and recruit those who are under-represented in the employer's workforce, but ONLY if they are equally qualified. Further, positive action involves an employer taking positive 'proportionate' steps to help remove the hurdles faced by those sections of the community that are under-represented in its workforce.
How does easyJet ensure that their special six female recruits who are lucky enough to get the £100k loan backing are selected, and how it is ensured that they are equally qualified? Also, how is it that female candidates face any more financial hurdles than male candidates? It would be understandable if the loan was backed for candidates from poorer backgrounds who had nothing to secure a loan against, but this is not necessarily the case here.
There are plenty of under-represented backgrounds in aviation, and it is of course up to easyJet to choose which of these they 'reasonably think' are disadvantaged or under-represented, but why not choose a group, like those from poorer backgrounds, who are not only under-represented but also disadvantaged. While female candidates are under-represented, they are not all disadvantaged.
Aside from this, on the easyJet website, female candidates are requested to apply for the Amy Johnson Flying Initiative under 'Co-Pilots', a role that is not open to male candidates, and meanwhile the equivalent male role - an MPL scheme - is not listed or available for application on the website. How then, can easyJet ensure that the females who apply are as qualified as males who cannot?
https://careers.easyjet.com/pilots/f...opportunities/
https://easyjet.taleo.net/careersect...033.1506699895
As a suggestion of how easyJet should improve the scheme, they should means test their loan backing, to ensure it is only awarded to those from disadvantaged backgrounds, and to not offer the loan based on gender, or any under-represented group in particular other than to those who simply cannot secure a loan anywhere else.
We are really excited to relaunch our Amy Johnson Flying Initiative for our next recruitment season and hope to see a whole new generation of female pilots inspired to start a career in aviation with us. Last year thousands of talented females reached out to us about the opportunities with easyJet and we’ll be looking to support motivated individuals to come join us in generation easyJet. All pilots in easyJet receive the same fantastic training, so we know that it won’t take long for you to build a fantastic career with us.
We will be using this initiative to keep you up to date on the latest easyJet news, the opportunities available and the different ways that you can apply to join us regardless of your background. We will also again be working in partnership with the British Women Pilots’ Association to promote the initiative and we again provide the opportunity to underwrite the loan for up to six female recruits.
We will be using this initiative to keep you up to date on the latest easyJet news, the opportunities available and the different ways that you can apply to join us regardless of your background. We will also again be working in partnership with the British Women Pilots’ Association to promote the initiative and we again provide the opportunity to underwrite the loan for up to six female recruits.
What I do have a problem with though, is what easyJet is doing by underwriting training loans, in excess of £100k, for female candidates and not for their equally, or perhaps even more, well-qualified and merited male counterparts.
I know for a fact I'm not the first person to say this, and I won't be the last but pilots should be selected on merit alone, regardless of your age, shape, race or what you have (or don't) between your legs.
I put it to easyJet that they may be in breach the Equality Act 2010 - which was adapted in 2011 to allow 'positive action' - making it legal to promote and recruit those who are under-represented in the employer's workforce, but ONLY if they are equally qualified. Further, positive action involves an employer taking positive 'proportionate' steps to help remove the hurdles faced by those sections of the community that are under-represented in its workforce.
How does easyJet ensure that their special six female recruits who are lucky enough to get the £100k loan backing are selected, and how it is ensured that they are equally qualified? Also, how is it that female candidates face any more financial hurdles than male candidates? It would be understandable if the loan was backed for candidates from poorer backgrounds who had nothing to secure a loan against, but this is not necessarily the case here.
There are plenty of under-represented backgrounds in aviation, and it is of course up to easyJet to choose which of these they 'reasonably think' are disadvantaged or under-represented, but why not choose a group, like those from poorer backgrounds, who are not only under-represented but also disadvantaged. While female candidates are under-represented, they are not all disadvantaged.
Aside from this, on the easyJet website, female candidates are requested to apply for the Amy Johnson Flying Initiative under 'Co-Pilots', a role that is not open to male candidates, and meanwhile the equivalent male role - an MPL scheme - is not listed or available for application on the website. How then, can easyJet ensure that the females who apply are as qualified as males who cannot?
https://careers.easyjet.com/pilots/f...opportunities/
https://easyjet.taleo.net/careersect...033.1506699895
As a suggestion of how easyJet should improve the scheme, they should means test their loan backing, to ensure it is only awarded to those from disadvantaged backgrounds, and to not offer the loan based on gender, or any under-represented group in particular other than to those who simply cannot secure a loan anywhere else.
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Rome
Posts: 194
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Interesting, have you spoken to the UK Equality and Human rights commission? The wording in the adverts are pretty clever, there is no discriminatory language in the application form or in the job requirements. So technically a man can apply, won't be called for an interview tho...
Gender has been a major trending topic in the last 3 years or so, they are simply following that trend, not because they care but because its a great marketing tool I think.
I might be wrong, but minorities are severely under represented in the flight deck, in the USA black pilots for example, account to only 2% of pilots, much less than women.
As a foreigner in the UK, I feel that the issue people often don't like to talk about is how classist the country is. If you don't fit that "box" of privately educated, middle/high class, the climb is much steeper for you.
The scheme should change to a bursary or scholarship for those who are outstanding candidates, but weren't privileged enough to get the financial support for training, independent of gender or race, or social class. I'd applaud them, but as it is now, I think it's propaganda. Anyone who has worked in recruitment knows that there is discrimination, dirty secret you're not allowed to talk about it tho.
Gender has been a major trending topic in the last 3 years or so, they are simply following that trend, not because they care but because its a great marketing tool I think.
I might be wrong, but minorities are severely under represented in the flight deck, in the USA black pilots for example, account to only 2% of pilots, much less than women.
As a foreigner in the UK, I feel that the issue people often don't like to talk about is how classist the country is. If you don't fit that "box" of privately educated, middle/high class, the climb is much steeper for you.
The scheme should change to a bursary or scholarship for those who are outstanding candidates, but weren't privileged enough to get the financial support for training, independent of gender or race, or social class. I'd applaud them, but as it is now, I think it's propaganda. Anyone who has worked in recruitment knows that there is discrimination, dirty secret you're not allowed to talk about it tho.
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: Echo Golf Papa Foxtrot
Posts: 152
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
easyJet probably balance this by saying that 'exceptional' candidates have a chance of having their loan underwritten - therefore any candidate with high degree of merit have a chance of getting this... Although, what bothers me is the secrecy around this process, whereas the Initiative seems pretty clear even stating the amount of candidates who will have the opportunity of getting their loan underwritten.
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: six micro tesla zone
Age: 33
Posts: 416
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Couldn’t have put it any better myself. A typical of the culture we live in today.
Last edited by MaverickPrime; 30th Sep 2017 at 17:58.
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: UK
Posts: 286
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Airways Aviation have got a similar scheme going with the BWPA, £35k worth of training up for grabs but you can only apply if you're a woman. Not good at all.
It's all identity politics, taking a overall high-level culture and dividing it into various competing groups centered around birth characteristics, all vying for attention. There is a growing backlash against it, which we have seen most recently in the US. It hasn't done much for workers' rights in general really because the left have taken their eyes off T&Cs across employment as a whole in order to promote identity stuff.
In my current trade/profession, also male dominated, a union tried to get a company to do the same thing though the company in question told them to get stuffed. I was rather annoyed when I found my subs were funding the effort.
Back to Easyjet, haven't a clue about the legality of it but I did hear the first round of the programme did not go down particularly well with quite a few of the line pilots. Will be interesting to see if a change of CEO brings a change (or indeed end) to this particular programme. I also noticed that they are advertising at Pilot Careers Live this year too, I wonder if they have anyhing to announce.
Re: Anunaki's point, I think there is sometimes can be an alumni network at play though I don't think the privately educated etc. are necessarily employed by virtue of where they are educated. Rather, they tend to have good grades but also the friendly assertiveness that a lot of companies crave these days. If you're at a boarding school, you have to learn to make friends without much support and this in itself is probably a good prep for the workplace.
It's all identity politics, taking a overall high-level culture and dividing it into various competing groups centered around birth characteristics, all vying for attention. There is a growing backlash against it, which we have seen most recently in the US. It hasn't done much for workers' rights in general really because the left have taken their eyes off T&Cs across employment as a whole in order to promote identity stuff.
In my current trade/profession, also male dominated, a union tried to get a company to do the same thing though the company in question told them to get stuffed. I was rather annoyed when I found my subs were funding the effort.
Back to Easyjet, haven't a clue about the legality of it but I did hear the first round of the programme did not go down particularly well with quite a few of the line pilots. Will be interesting to see if a change of CEO brings a change (or indeed end) to this particular programme. I also noticed that they are advertising at Pilot Careers Live this year too, I wonder if they have anyhing to announce.
Re: Anunaki's point, I think there is sometimes can be an alumni network at play though I don't think the privately educated etc. are necessarily employed by virtue of where they are educated. Rather, they tend to have good grades but also the friendly assertiveness that a lot of companies crave these days. If you're at a boarding school, you have to learn to make friends without much support and this in itself is probably a good prep for the workplace.
Join Date: Feb 2017
Location: UK
Posts: 4
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
This is something that has bothered me since the schemes inception. I believe most of the key points have been mentioned. I am all for diversity in the work place, but I believe in all organisations it’s should be those who are most qualified who should get the responsibility. If I am soundly beaten to a position by very capable peers then so be it, irrespective of gender, age or ethnic background.
But I do believe that it has got to the point where it is almost a selling point and marketing ploy by EJ. Having said that I believe this positive discrimination happens within most airlines who offer these schemes.
I genuinely feel discriminated against when schemes like this are put in place.
But I do believe that it has got to the point where it is almost a selling point and marketing ploy by EJ. Having said that I believe this positive discrimination happens within most airlines who offer these schemes.
I genuinely feel discriminated against when schemes like this are put in place.
PPRuNe Handmaiden
I read these posts with amusement. 6 positions. Just 6 positions out of how many that easyJet hire per year? easyJet is underwriting the loan, not paying for it. I sincerely hope you've written to Carolyn McCall advising her of her folly. Let's see if her replacement scraps the scheme...
Discriminated against? Don't make me laugh. 5% of the world's airline pilots are women. I'm sure you can do the maths. That means 95% are men. They are your competition. Not the paltry number of women. The number of female captains world wide can fit in 1 B747. Hardly massive numbers...
When I can walk through the terminal in my uniform and no one bats an eye, when I am recognised as the captain, not the FA when I am speaking to the pax, the refueller, the handling agent, the hotel check-in staff, the taxi driver... I think you get my point. Then and only then will these schemes and initiatives be superfluous.
I sure you'll scream "it's not fair". Guess what? It's not. Life is not fair. It just isn't. If you are going to get upset before you're hired, then I had better warn you that you'll be getting upset regularly throughout your career. Someone will get "your" base. Someone will get a command before you. Someone will get a fleet change before you. Someone will be able to bid summer leave... It never stops.
You can either just shrug your shoulders and focus on with your life & career or you can whinge on a bulletin board.
Your choice.
Discriminated against? Don't make me laugh. 5% of the world's airline pilots are women. I'm sure you can do the maths. That means 95% are men. They are your competition. Not the paltry number of women. The number of female captains world wide can fit in 1 B747. Hardly massive numbers...
When I can walk through the terminal in my uniform and no one bats an eye, when I am recognised as the captain, not the FA when I am speaking to the pax, the refueller, the handling agent, the hotel check-in staff, the taxi driver... I think you get my point. Then and only then will these schemes and initiatives be superfluous.
I sure you'll scream "it's not fair". Guess what? It's not. Life is not fair. It just isn't. If you are going to get upset before you're hired, then I had better warn you that you'll be getting upset regularly throughout your career. Someone will get "your" base. Someone will get a command before you. Someone will get a fleet change before you. Someone will be able to bid summer leave... It never stops.
You can either just shrug your shoulders and focus on with your life & career or you can whinge on a bulletin board.
Your choice.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 4
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
A few interesting points made so far.
Firstly, I think it's very important to separate '(positive) discrimination', which is plainly illegal, and is not what easyJet are doing here, and 'positive action' which has been made legal, with some caveats, and is how easyJet are trying to operate this scheme.
My initial post was aimed at conjuring up some discussion and thoughts, yes, but I wasn't necessarily asking how people felt or why easyJet have pushed this initiative, which is quite obvious. The real question is: is what easyJet is doing completely legal? I'm not convinced it is.
What is it about females that makes them, specifically, have any more of a financial hurdle than anyone else? How can easyJet prove that the females selected for this scheme as equally as qualified as the males - who, let's remember, can't even apply for it!?
To reiterate, this is not about whether the scheme is fair or not, it's whether it's legal. Hence the title of the thread.
Firstly, I think it's very important to separate '(positive) discrimination', which is plainly illegal, and is not what easyJet are doing here, and 'positive action' which has been made legal, with some caveats, and is how easyJet are trying to operate this scheme.
My initial post was aimed at conjuring up some discussion and thoughts, yes, but I wasn't necessarily asking how people felt or why easyJet have pushed this initiative, which is quite obvious. The real question is: is what easyJet is doing completely legal? I'm not convinced it is.
What is it about females that makes them, specifically, have any more of a financial hurdle than anyone else? How can easyJet prove that the females selected for this scheme as equally as qualified as the males - who, let's remember, can't even apply for it!?
To reiterate, this is not about whether the scheme is fair or not, it's whether it's legal. Hence the title of the thread.
PPRuNe Handmaiden
Maybe so *shrugs*
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Earth
Posts: 666
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
You sound rather angry and letting you're emotions get in the way on here.
I think the point is that as far as employment goes - the best should get the job. If that best person is male or female - who cares. Are females stopped from applying to all the other airline programmes? No. Are they discriminated against when they apply to them? No. So why the need to make a route specially for them? Actually I think if I was a female I would find it rather patronising. It's almost as if easyjet are saying females are less capable of doing it and so we'll give them that boost in the form of this scheme. Again, they are free to enter a level playing field (and do) in all the other schemes. So why the need for this?
The initiative here is to offer financial help to females and females only, so what about the males who can't afford it either?
I think the point is that as far as employment goes - the best should get the job. If that best person is male or female - who cares. Are females stopped from applying to all the other airline programmes? No. Are they discriminated against when they apply to them? No. So why the need to make a route specially for them? Actually I think if I was a female I would find it rather patronising. It's almost as if easyjet are saying females are less capable of doing it and so we'll give them that boost in the form of this scheme. Again, they are free to enter a level playing field (and do) in all the other schemes. So why the need for this?
The initiative here is to offer financial help to females and females only, so what about the males who can't afford it either?
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Rome
Posts: 194
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The issue with women is not financial in all cases, it's the about social constructs regarding the role of women in our society, and some argue biological pre dispositions. Meaning, young girls aren't told they can, instead it's seen as a man's job. And girls in general prefer social sciences when studying. We risk getting into a modern feminism Vs second wave feminism debate, and that gets messy.
I feel that infantilises women, and as Officer kite pointed out, it's patronising. But if you are a man and you point out the hypocrisies, you are quickly shot down and told you are mansplaining, so this sort of thing goes unchallenged. When I finished my training, the girls in my school were the very first to be hired and all are captains now, I'm still looking for my first job. To our surprise, they weren't the top performers either so excuse my cynicism, I don't believe that in 2017 women are stopped from being pilots, its a choice.
I feel that infantilises women, and as Officer kite pointed out, it's patronising. But if you are a man and you point out the hypocrisies, you are quickly shot down and told you are mansplaining, so this sort of thing goes unchallenged. When I finished my training, the girls in my school were the very first to be hired and all are captains now, I'm still looking for my first job. To our surprise, they weren't the top performers either so excuse my cynicism, I don't believe that in 2017 women are stopped from being pilots, its a choice.
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: UK
Posts: 127
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
One of my friend's girlfriends applied for this scheme. She did the selection and had quite a long wait to see if she'd been chosen for the full loan underwriting. Eventually they said to her "Hard luck, we won't be underwriting your loan, but you can have a place on the MPL scheme if you're willing to pay £126K like the rest...". She refused that offer. It makes me wonder whether they'll actually pay-out to anyone, or they'll just keep offering fully self-sponsored schemes.
There were rumours at my flight school about the old BA scheme. Allegedly if any male cadets underperformed or failed anything, they were dismissed. The females of course, weren't. So there are a handful of female pilots in the air for BA with numerous failed ATPL theory exams, progress tests, and check rides. The males who got through had to have immaculate training records. An instructor said the only female to get dismissed from the scheme was because she became pregnant during her training (supposedly to another male BA cadet). I'll believe that when I see it!
You can't help but despise positive discrimination. It creates so much animosity, especially when people are getting jobs, promotions, schemes, etc, based on their gender or skin colour. Knocking-back better candidates because of something out of their control. I'd back a law outlawing any form of discrimination. Positive or negative. Scheme open to this gender, society open to this race, club open to this colour... Get rid of it all. Everyone should have the same selection, the same chances, and the best should win. I'm all up for more fully-sponsored schemes, but give them to the best candidates, not the best women. That's my penny's worth anyway.
There were rumours at my flight school about the old BA scheme. Allegedly if any male cadets underperformed or failed anything, they were dismissed. The females of course, weren't. So there are a handful of female pilots in the air for BA with numerous failed ATPL theory exams, progress tests, and check rides. The males who got through had to have immaculate training records. An instructor said the only female to get dismissed from the scheme was because she became pregnant during her training (supposedly to another male BA cadet). I'll believe that when I see it!
You can't help but despise positive discrimination. It creates so much animosity, especially when people are getting jobs, promotions, schemes, etc, based on their gender or skin colour. Knocking-back better candidates because of something out of their control. I'd back a law outlawing any form of discrimination. Positive or negative. Scheme open to this gender, society open to this race, club open to this colour... Get rid of it all. Everyone should have the same selection, the same chances, and the best should win. I'm all up for more fully-sponsored schemes, but give them to the best candidates, not the best women. That's my penny's worth anyway.
Join Date: Nov 1999
Posts: 2,312
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
You can't help but despise positive discrimination. It creates so much animosity, especially when people are getting jobs, promotions, schemes, etc, based on their gender or skin colour. Knocking-back better candidates because of something out of their control. I'd back a law outlawing any form of discrimination. Positive or negative. Scheme open to this gender, society open to this race, club open to this colour... Get rid of it all. Everyone should have the same selection, the same chances, and the best should win. I'm all up for more fully-sponsored schemes, but give them to the best candidates, not the best women. That's my penny's worth anyway.
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: UK
Posts: 286
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Interesting comment Rottweiler, the A321 tailstrike at Glasgow was an ex-FPPer, whilst the AAIB report didn't disclose gender there were quite a few people who thought it wasn't a bloke.
Join Date: May 2017
Location: Uk
Posts: 36
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Are you having a giraffe ?
1. EasyJet employ lawyers. Presumably very good ones. If they have felt this is legal, I would put very good money on it that your questionable legal ramblings are wide of the actual legal mark.
2. You keep saying about equally qualified, if they meet the minimum criteria, then they are equally qualified, and guess who sets the criteria? EasyJet. ! You may think that flight hours, or a better degree or a rampaging sense of entitlement make you better qualified, but if easyJet( again backed up by employment law specialists) say they don't see that as a relevant advantage then you are wasting your time.
Maybe spending more time brushing up on interview and people skills to make yourself stand out at interviews rather than raising tenuous questions online might just help this become a non issue for you by making you an exceptional candidate.
2. You keep saying about equally qualified, if they meet the minimum criteria, then they are equally qualified, and guess who sets the criteria? EasyJet. ! You may think that flight hours, or a better degree or a rampaging sense of entitlement make you better qualified, but if easyJet( again backed up by employment law specialists) say they don't see that as a relevant advantage then you are wasting your time.
Maybe spending more time brushing up on interview and people skills to make yourself stand out at interviews rather than raising tenuous questions online might just help this become a non issue for you by making you an exceptional candidate.
The attitudes displayed by a number of posters on this thread are exactly why there are so few female pilots. The creeping whispering and supposition that women get an “easy ride” or their incidents are glossed over is the kind of nasty whispering that is inherent in the overly masculine culture on some flight decks.
The number of cabin crew doing the job tells me it isn’t the lifestyle that’s the issue, it’s the opportunity. If you grew up seeing only middle aged men as pilots, you are not necessarily going to think it is a job available to you. More women on the flight deck can only be a good thing and EZY are to be applauded in their attempts to attract people.
The number of cabin crew doing the job tells me it isn’t the lifestyle that’s the issue, it’s the opportunity. If you grew up seeing only middle aged men as pilots, you are not necessarily going to think it is a job available to you. More women on the flight deck can only be a good thing and EZY are to be applauded in their attempts to attract people.
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: n/a
Posts: 1,425
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
didn't disclose gender there were quite a few people who thought it wasn't a bloke.
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: UK
Posts: 286
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Daysleeper, the point I was making wasn't based on how many male/female pilots there are. It was based on the fact that Rottweiler suggested that cadets matching a certain demographic were treated more favourably than others when they didn't meet the required standard during the course. I don't know the detail of how things actually turned out, I wasn't there.
What I was saying is that in my opinion, the AAIB report should have gone into much more detail as to the cadet's training records, especially when the landings were described as "inconsistent" and additional training was provided. Look at the detail the Kos report went into regarding performance during training, after a tailstrike which was preceded by "inconsistent" landing technique. This would certainly help determine the accuracy of what has been suggested.
Personally, with regards to opportunities in aviation, I'm in favour of equality for all, with no special treatment for anyone on the grounds of gender or race.
What I was saying is that in my opinion, the AAIB report should have gone into much more detail as to the cadet's training records, especially when the landings were described as "inconsistent" and additional training was provided. Look at the detail the Kos report went into regarding performance during training, after a tailstrike which was preceded by "inconsistent" landing technique. This would certainly help determine the accuracy of what has been suggested.
Personally, with regards to opportunities in aviation, I'm in favour of equality for all, with no special treatment for anyone on the grounds of gender or race.
Last edited by Chris the Robot; 11th Oct 2017 at 18:27.
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: London
Posts: 611
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
There were rumours at my flight school about the old BA scheme. Allegedly if any male cadets underperformed or failed anything, they were dismissed. The females of course, weren't.