UK Nationals being discriminated against?
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Still nobody answered my question: how many non-UK pilots in BA, CityFlyer, Virgin? Maybe I'm wrong, just wondering.
CaptainCriticalAngle, you want fairness? Who are you, exactly? I've been learning German, in Germany, since last August, that's my third language and I've still got some room for improvement with French, that would be my fourth, if I had time. It was my choice after getting nothing in the UK, and believe me or not, if I applied to any German airline I would get more chances to step in than in your equal opportunities-prone country. Twice I spent money and time to go to Manchester for CityFlyer, what I've got after the final stage? "We regret to inform you that we can't process your application any further. If you're still interested in our integrated course, please let us know. The results of your tests show that you're eligible for a direct entry in our self-sponsored programme." That's fairness and equal opportunities in your country.
You Brits have been lingering for decades on the assumption that another language plays hardly any role in a multicultural, English-speaking world, that's the truth.
CaptainCriticalAngle, you want fairness? Who are you, exactly? I've been learning German, in Germany, since last August, that's my third language and I've still got some room for improvement with French, that would be my fourth, if I had time. It was my choice after getting nothing in the UK, and believe me or not, if I applied to any German airline I would get more chances to step in than in your equal opportunities-prone country. Twice I spent money and time to go to Manchester for CityFlyer, what I've got after the final stage? "We regret to inform you that we can't process your application any further. If you're still interested in our integrated course, please let us know. The results of your tests show that you're eligible for a direct entry in our self-sponsored programme." That's fairness and equal opportunities in your country.
You Brits have been lingering for decades on the assumption that another language plays hardly any role in a multicultural, English-speaking world, that's the truth.
PPRuNe Handmaiden
English is not the only ICAO language. There are many ICAO approved languages.
English is a requirement for international travel but....
From the ICAO site.
"In which languages does a licence holder need to demonstrate proficiency?
Amendment 164 to Annex 1 has introduced strengthened language proficiency requirements for flight crew members and air traffic controllers. The language proficiency requirements apply to any language used for radiotelephony communications in international operations. Therefore, pilots on international flights shall demonstrate language proficiency in either English or the language used by the station on the ground. Controllers working on stations serving designated airports and routes used by international air services shall demonstrate language proficiency in English as well as in any other language(s) used by the station on the ground."
My bolding.
Source. ICAO
English is a requirement for international travel but....
From the ICAO site.
"In which languages does a licence holder need to demonstrate proficiency?
Amendment 164 to Annex 1 has introduced strengthened language proficiency requirements for flight crew members and air traffic controllers. The language proficiency requirements apply to any language used for radiotelephony communications in international operations. Therefore, pilots on international flights shall demonstrate language proficiency in either English or the language used by the station on the ground. Controllers working on stations serving designated airports and routes used by international air services shall demonstrate language proficiency in English as well as in any other language(s) used by the station on the ground."
My bolding.
Source. ICAO
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Swarm you're missing the point by about as far away as you could possibly get. You notice the only people offended and getting their arses in a tizz are the pilots that it doesn't affect? Why is that? Because you know damn well the truth is being spoken, and swarm do you care to answer my original question that I've now asked TWICE, and now a third time. How many English pilots hold jobs in those very airlines you're on about? Less than 1% is what I'm claiming, so if you know any different then please enlighten us. Also why are you so offended by it? It's fact. What do you want me to say? The sooner the UK pulls the plug on the European Union the better? There's nothing to be offended about, all we're asking is that we get the same and fair crack of the whip abroad as our national flag carrier and other carriers afford other EU citizens in line with European law, it's as plain and simple as that, and if that offends you, well tough tit.
I don't know any pilot that being non-uk born is working for Flybe or BA for example ,
I can't comment on current recruitment but last weekend, having said hi to a Dutch national BA captain who has been in BA well over twenty years I then.spent an hour talking about the Shoreham accident with another BA captain who is a US national (been in BA 20 years'ish, before you ask as right to work live in EU /UK due family circumstances.)
I've just done a three crew long haul trip where neither of my colleagues was a Brit, the checker on my last sim wasn't a Brit. It's certainly not unusual to have a least one none Brit on the Flight deck on a trip..and I haven't yet mentioned the Irish, probably because there are too many to count....
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Sorry but I can't keep it...
Unfortunately all the Brits think they are always discriminated. People taking their benefits, immigration, now the language.. All coming from people that hundreds of years ago invaded countries all around the world, exploiting everything it was available at that time.
Equal opportunities? F
me, you are the ONLY country I know that asks for religion, skin colour (which has white British, white Irish, white others and others as option), sex orientation, etc, for nearly every job in your country.
This thread is ridiculous as many posts here as well. A new language can always be learned, you just have to make the effort. There are many interactive computer apps that can help you.
As other people said, if they are hiring in German and I don't know German, is that discriminating against me? No, that's only requirements. Like flying hours. Or are you going to say as well that airlines discriminate low hour pilots that just finished the CPL? Don't think you will. What do this guys and gals do? They build their hours. What do you have to do in your case to get a job in a foreign airline that requires local language? Learn a new language, simple! Just make the EFFORT
Equal opportunities? F
me, you are the ONLY country I know that asks for religion, skin colour (which has white British, white Irish, white others and others as option), sex orientation, etc, for nearly every job in your country.This thread is ridiculous as many posts here as well. A new language can always be learned, you just have to make the effort. There are many interactive computer apps that can help you.
As other people said, if they are hiring in German and I don't know German, is that discriminating against me? No, that's only requirements. Like flying hours. Or are you going to say as well that airlines discriminate low hour pilots that just finished the CPL? Don't think you will. What do this guys and gals do? They build their hours. What do you have to do in your case to get a job in a foreign airline that requires local language? Learn a new language, simple! Just make the EFFORT
Thread Starter
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plikee..I started the Thread and in retrospect the Thread Title was inaccurate.
I flew as a pax on Sunday with a well known UK Regional and the FO was non UK.
With all of the UK wannabees out there I just started wondering how "open" other EU airlines are given that LOT, Wideroe, SAS and Lufthansa all wanted applications in their native language when I applied to them.
A French FI that trained with me in Scotland was turned down by Air France because..and I quote..you should not have trained in the UK.
I wonder if the Aussies, Kiwis and Americans are as accommodating re foreign pilots.
The thread has been quite revealing in that I now realise what depth of change has occurred since my parents voted for a Common Market and not a Political Union. I accept that times have clearly changed. Separate issue.
If I learnt another language it would have to be Gaelic!!!
PS The Portugese had the first global empire. And the Spanish, French, Belgian and Dutch didnae do too bad either! Or the Vikings for that matter!
I flew as a pax on Sunday with a well known UK Regional and the FO was non UK.
With all of the UK wannabees out there I just started wondering how "open" other EU airlines are given that LOT, Wideroe, SAS and Lufthansa all wanted applications in their native language when I applied to them.
A French FI that trained with me in Scotland was turned down by Air France because..and I quote..you should not have trained in the UK.
I wonder if the Aussies, Kiwis and Americans are as accommodating re foreign pilots.
The thread has been quite revealing in that I now realise what depth of change has occurred since my parents voted for a Common Market and not a Political Union. I accept that times have clearly changed. Separate issue.
If I learnt another language it would have to be Gaelic!!!
PS The Portugese had the first global empire. And the Spanish, French, Belgian and Dutch didnae do too bad either! Or the Vikings for that matter!
Last edited by covec; 31st Aug 2015 at 23:43.
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Yet none has mentioned the benefits of speaking the local language. Delays, diversions, technical problems, onboard safety procedures, customer service issues etc. may need to be communicated to the passengers. Having a flight crew member that speaks a mutual language with the passengers can diffuse escalating situations. French, Spanish, Italians.. it's not a given they speak English. I guess it's called service, perhaps even safety. And I am quite aware that plenty of low cost carriers couldn't give a rat's ass about that, thank you.
A lot of misconceptions here.
Someone claimed the Lufthansa OM-B was in German. Not true. However, LH do expect you to speak German because they are a Germany airline, with many German Customers, German ground staff etc. So it does make sense that as a pilot who works of them you speak the language of the people you work with. Also, they expect you to stay "forever" as opposed to many other "expat" jobs.
(on a related note: LH will not be hiring anyone any time soon. They have just set up Eurowings EU in Austria in an attempt to win the "race to the bottom" when it comes to pilot pay and conditions)
Somebody mentioned how airlines in the UAE are so much better because they don't expect you to speak Arabic. What a silly comparison. Over there we are all "guest workers". People from all over the world come there because they don't have locals that can or want to do the jobs. And since everybody there comes from all over the place, the local language is not the common ground, but English is. Unlike in France, Spain and Portugal. Even there customers are most from all over the place.
It has been mentioned that many Dutch pilots fly for BA, for example. Of course they do. Thea all speak perfect English. And many of them work for airlines in Germany. Guess what, they speak German. I don't see any discrimination going on here. I really don't.
Now, I would not be surprised if it was hard for a non-national to join IBERIA or Air France for example, even with good local language skills. That is not ok. But a Dutch pilot flying for LH or BA if he or she is as good or better than the local applicant, why not?
Someone claimed the Lufthansa OM-B was in German. Not true. However, LH do expect you to speak German because they are a Germany airline, with many German Customers, German ground staff etc. So it does make sense that as a pilot who works of them you speak the language of the people you work with. Also, they expect you to stay "forever" as opposed to many other "expat" jobs.
(on a related note: LH will not be hiring anyone any time soon. They have just set up Eurowings EU in Austria in an attempt to win the "race to the bottom" when it comes to pilot pay and conditions)
Somebody mentioned how airlines in the UAE are so much better because they don't expect you to speak Arabic. What a silly comparison. Over there we are all "guest workers". People from all over the world come there because they don't have locals that can or want to do the jobs. And since everybody there comes from all over the place, the local language is not the common ground, but English is. Unlike in France, Spain and Portugal. Even there customers are most from all over the place.
It has been mentioned that many Dutch pilots fly for BA, for example. Of course they do. Thea all speak perfect English. And many of them work for airlines in Germany. Guess what, they speak German. I don't see any discrimination going on here. I really don't.
Now, I would not be surprised if it was hard for a non-national to join IBERIA or Air France for example, even with good local language skills. That is not ok. But a Dutch pilot flying for LH or BA if he or she is as good or better than the local applicant, why not?
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Blah blah blah
There's a touch of self-righteousness to some of the posts on here, including the one above this one.
Would you like to elaborate on how many British or Irish pilots work for KLM?
Many of us would love to, but there's a slim chance of it happening. Why?
And with regards to the UAE, I don't quite understand your logic. The airlines there could easily insist on English and Arabic, but they know it would be a barrier to many applicants.
That is exactly why that principle IS used by the European airlines, to favour their nationals.
I repeat what I said though, British airlines really should start doing the same and favouring British pilots and should NOT employ foreigners until the balance is redressed.
Would you like to elaborate on how many British or Irish pilots work for KLM?
Many of us would love to, but there's a slim chance of it happening. Why?
And with regards to the UAE, I don't quite understand your logic. The airlines there could easily insist on English and Arabic, but they know it would be a barrier to many applicants.
That is exactly why that principle IS used by the European airlines, to favour their nationals.
I repeat what I said though, British airlines really should start doing the same and favouring British pilots and should NOT employ foreigners until the balance is redressed.
I repeat what I said though, British airlines really should start doing the same and favouring British pilots and should NOT employ foreigners until the balance is redressed.
(I'd suggest it would be best to avoid getting the CEO/ Board/Head of Flight Ops/Head of recruitment involved in a court case)
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Would you like to elaborate on how many British or Irish pilots work for KLM?
Many of us would love to, but there's a slim chance of it happening. Why?
Many of us would love to, but there's a slim chance of it happening. Why?
Understandable that you feel upset, since English is readily available to learn from a very young age in most European countries. Harder for Brits to learn the local lingo of same countries. But the opportunity is there.
