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Flybe -V- BA. The age old question.

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Flybe -V- BA. The age old question.

Old 3rd Mar 2015, 22:05
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Flybe -V- BA. The age old question.

Ok, so I know it's not an age old question but i'm curious to know people's thoughts.



BA will pay more - £40,000 – TBC.
BA is a ‘better’ company.
BA offers a better package.
BA offers more locations (inc. London) – confirm?
BA will allow me to fly a jet.
BA offer a better ATPL course.

BA is a bigger company so I am one of many.
BA time to captain is 15 years, no progression here?
A Jet is arguably less interesting to fly that a regional turbo-prop.
BA is also a LOT harder to get in to that most other airlines.

Flybe is a smaller company and more of a team.
Flybe will allow me to progress to Captain in roughly 3 years.
Flybe offer an aircraft that is more fun to fly.
Flybe will offer more money after roughly 3 years as a Captain - £69,000

Flybe will ‘lock’ me in to flying the turbo-prop.
Flybe will limit my locations.
Flybe will pay me less - £28,000.
Flybe only provide the MPL course.

I'm genuinely trying to compare the 2, everyone tells me the obvious answer is BA but really, why?

Consider pay to start with, we are looking at a difference of about £12k, ok that's substantial but you'll jump to roughly £69k as a Flybe Capt whilst your BA opo will still be a FO on how much?

Consider the flying. Ok so the turbo-prop won't let you fly a jet but then why would you want to? The turbo prop sounds more fun and regional flights see you do a lot more real hands on flying (lots of take-offs and landings)

I just feel like all BA give me is a slightly better pay packet and let me fly a jet to be more employable in the future. BUT what if I don't want to fly a jet and what if you consider that you'll be a captain far quicker with Flybe?

So it sounds like i'm sold on Flybe but my serious concerns are...

First, where will I be based?
I have recently moved to London with my long term girlfriend and hope to remain there, or nearby. Can Flybe do this? I know they fly from London City and plan to expand in the future (maybe in 2yrs when I finish training?). If not London, where else am I likely to end up and how much of a say do I get in this?
Being able to see my girlfriend is an important issue for me, some of you may question my commitment but i've spent the last 8 years 'away from home' and have finally settled back in London.

Secondly, if I fly with Flybe and wish to later transfer to another company/aircraft how easy/difficult would that be? As I understand it I would have to complete a new type rating and would be transferring across with zero hours flying time on a jet. I'm also told due to the weight of the A/C my hours may not count at all?
As I said earlier I like the sound of regional flghts on the Dash but I don't know what the future will bring and what I 'might' want to do, so I think it's important to understand my options. What about the possibility of an internal 'transfer' from the Dash to the Embracer. If I've served 3+ yrs with Flybe and qualified as Captain and my plan is to fly jets surely they will sooner see me re-train with them than leave Flybe and move to another company or will I simply be stuck? Let's say I HAVE to move from Turbo-prop to jet, how would I do it?

I appreciate this is a mass of questions, you'll also realise from this post that I'm starting to research now so there are a lot of gaps in my knowledge. I feel like my reasoning is sound and i've thought about it but I stand ready to be completely re-educated...

I look forward to any help, whilst i'm sure many of you will look at this and think 'idiot', BA is obviously the answer. Consider my points and please explain why.

Thank you in advance.
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Old 4th Mar 2015, 04:28
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Flybe -V- BA. The age old question.

My first point: - are you seriously only looking at two companies??? I applied to everyone I could, within reason. One person I know has ended up with Cathay Pacific after years as a flight instructor in Florida waiting for an airline slot. Aiming at just one of two airlines is, sadly, unrealistic and short-sighted. We all have our dream slot, it's true, but you must open up your horizon.

Pay is an important factor, as are conditions. FlyBE also have jets, and it is often heard how the management there want to go pure Embraer. You may want to dig a little deeper in your research.

Turboprops may be more interesting to some than to others. The Q400 is certainly a powerful machine. BA fly transatlantic with the A318 though as well so you can be statesside operating a mid-range jet and still be operating from London City.

My personal choice in an ideal world though would he BA. Larger, more secure company with a very strong market position, more varied routes, the glam of being the "flag carrier" (although Virgin Atlantic love to dispute that one), to name but a couple.

Good luck with your training and career and I hope your first aviation job is something close to what you want.
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Old 4th Mar 2015, 07:14
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Perhaps one other thing to consider is: Do flybe have a future as a company? Will they still be here in 5 years, 10 years? I suppose you could ask this question for BA too, but flybe have had a very difficult time recently and it is a question I would be seriously considering.

I also think your figure of earning £69,000 a year as a Q400 captain after only 3 years sounds very, very ambitious. Is time to command in Flybe really 3 years and is the Q400 skippers salary £69,000 or is that the salary for an Emb skipper?

BA every time for me for the following reasons.

1. Job security
2. Creates options for moving fleets or even moving companies if you want.
3. Job security
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Old 4th Mar 2015, 07:41
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As some people have said already, if you had offers from both I would probably say go for BA. More job security, London based, excellent conditions. Time for captaincy will be important in the future, now you haven't even started training yet so you don't even know whether you would be eligible.

But in the real world, sadly chances are you will be applying in the future for a job in Indonesia flying something much smaller or even less than that, so apply everywhere and if you get one of the two go for it.
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Old 4th Mar 2015, 09:44
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Number of Flybe pilots who have recently handed their notice in to go to BA/are working their way through the BA selection process/or waiting to hear results of same - don't know the exact figure, but it's a significant number.

Number of BA pilots attempting to leave BA to go to Flybe - don't know the exact figure, but willing to guess it's a nice round number..............0
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Old 4th Mar 2015, 19:58
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Dash8Driver.

My first point: - are you seriously only looking at two companies??? ... Nope, just those are the only 2 windows I have caught so far that are in the UK.

Pay is an important factor, as are conditions... Pay is important-ish. I have solid job prospects in London that would offer far more than flying. I agree it's a factor but I'm not in it for the money.

FlyBE also have jets, and it is often heard how the management there want to go pure Embraer. You may want to dig a little deeper in your research. - I did not know that they wanted to move towards Embraer, I'll check that out, thank you!

Sadly it would be a BIG decision to move out of the UK and not an easy one to move too far from London.

You say BA is larger so you'd rather go there, what's better about a 'larger' company? I understand and agree with all the rest.

Good luck with your training and career and I hope your first aviation job is something close to what you want. - Thank you very much, I plan to work hard to ensure I get as close as possible to my dream job.


Officer Kite,

"you simply have to grab whatever you're bloody given" - I'm afraid I have to completely disagree, I have good options outside of the cockpit that would pay me enough to fly for fun however I DO want to fly for a living. Does that mean I'll take ANY job and drop everything else for it and not consider my long term prospects? Not a chance.

OP this isn't aimed at you but I've noticed a few people discuss each airline's perks... I partially agree here but we all have to have a goal and taking our 2nd, 3rd, 4th option straight off the bat just doesn't make sense before atleast TRYING to chase our dream. I'm very aware how tough it is and I wonder if I might rather NOT fly commercially and fly as a hobby instead of turning it in to a job I dislike.


Norhern Monkey.

Do flybe have a future as a company?... Interesting point. They are back in solid profit this year their CEO is ex-EJ and cited as the source of a lot of good work. He's made a huge difference at Flybe and I do believe they are on the up. It's still something I need to consider and where does it leave me if they do go bust?

According to my research from various sources, time to command is 3-5yrs. Flybe itself states command can be applied for after 2500hrs. You should be flying 900 per year so in 3 years you are at the 2700 mark.

Surely if job security is your only goal you might as well just go for a different job? Surely this career is more about the passion for flying. If you're only other reason is your exit route I just don't think that makes sense.


Vikdream,

Time for captaincy will be important in the future, now you haven't even started training yet so you don't even know whether you would be eligible... Why would I not be eligible? Without going in to too much detail and making huge assumptions I have a very well respected management and leadership background with qualifications to match. What are the other requirements other than hours? I'm not trying to show off here and hope I don't sound arrogant, i'm just unsure why I wouldn't be eligible. Also, you say in the future, in Flybe we are talking 2yrs training and 3 years flying. If you are not planning roughly 5 years ahead I think you're doing yourself a dis-service.

in the future for a job in Indonesia flying something much smaller or even less than that... I just won't. I have a lot of other attractive employment options, at the moment I would rather fly but it isn't my only option and i'm not just willing to take plan D straight off the bat.


Summary,

Lots of people are suggesting BA but there doesn't seem like there is much real substance. Assume you are in the ideal situation and have BOTH options and have never heard of either company before. Compare like for like, WHY BA over Flybe? What are the pros and cons?
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Old 4th Mar 2015, 23:02
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Dash8Driver.

Sept 14...
Flybe has cancelled its purchase of 20 unwanted new jets in a “landmark” deal for the Exeter-based airline.
Read more at Flybe cancels order for 20 Embraer jets but leases 24 Bombardier Q400s from Republic Airways | Exeter Express and Echo

Maybe the Embraer strategy has changed!?
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Old 5th Mar 2015, 00:38
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Budding

I'm very lucky in that I'm 7 years into my career and I work for a big, profitable airline flying jets. I know that many people would give anything to be where I am today, but I do despair when I read that people don't want to do this job primarily for the rewards on offer but just because they love flying. Loving flying is great but as I have found, you still have to pay back the flying loan ( in my case circa £100,000) whilst also trying to somehow start a pension and buy a house, possibly in the south of the UK which is unbelievably expensive. Any rational person cannot afford to overlook these considerations. Airlines will happily let you work for free or almost for free if that's what you want to do - where will that leave the profession for you in 10 years time or for those who follow you? If you genuinely believe it is not a good deal financially then why even consider flybe? As others have said (and I firmly believe it's impossible to get this message across to people who haven't done this job for a while) after your first year or two the romance of flying fades and it becomes a JOB like any other. If you aren't being paid enough to have a good quality of life it will be quite depressing.

Plenty of people are suggesting BA without substance you say. What I say is that people have told you why BA is, in all likelihood, a better option. You seem to be choosing to ignore that for whatever reason. But for the sake of clarity let's recap.

1. An A320 rating is considerably more useful and marketable than a dash 8 rating and thus gives you far more options in terms of your future career, particularly in the event flybe isn't as successful as you hope.

2. You say the turnaround at flybe is going well. I say that the flybe share price nearly halved from the 20th-29th of January this year on the back of a profit warning because the so called turnaround is not going so well. Far from moving to an all Jet fleet (you really need to do your research here) they are desperate to get shot of 9 Embraer jets they don't want or need.

3. You say job security isn't important. I say it's one of the most important things. A passion for flying will not pay your bills if your chosen company goes under.

To me (and I may be wrong) it sounds like for whatever reason you have decided you want to work for flybe and are looking for the community here to affirm that view. For me, it's exactly the wrong view to take. My specific concerns with flybe are being made redundant with a useless type rating and loads of debt (not to mention struggling to make ends meat in the meantime). Also I think you would be very foolish to base your financial planning on the assumption of a command after a specific time frame. Promotions and recruitment in aviation are entirely dependent on demand and the state of the economy which no one can predict accurately.

Good luck whatever you decide but go into it with your eyes open! What's important is a secure job bringing in enough money to fund the repayments and to enjoy a good quality of life. Treat it like you would any other job and you won't go far wrong.

Last edited by Northern Monkey; 5th Mar 2015 at 01:13.
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Old 5th Mar 2015, 00:52
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If you have 200 hours and you are lucky enough to get offered a job with either of them, then you are a very very fortunate young pilot.

Take the job you are offered, and cling onto it like a starfish to a rock, and don't look back. The time to pick and choose your jobs will come later, when you have a few thousand hours in the logbook.
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Old 7th Mar 2015, 16:48
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I'm ex Flybe and can certainly say there is no way in hell you will be upgrading in three years time, let alone inside that timeframe. Northern Monkey is spot on, times are still not good at Flybe and prospects for the future still extremely uncertain. Flybe are a niche airline and far too big to be able to meet that niche profitably. There is no expansion on the cards, in fact if they are to survive in the future I would say there is only one way it can happen and that is going to be a sizeable contraction. The BA Connect merger of 2007 was an unmitigated disaster for the airline that cripples it to this very day.

The Dash rating is useless, believe me, I experienced the stress of two years ago trying to find other jobs with that very same chocolate fireguard type rating only to be confronted with almost every single job available requiring jet time or an A320 rating. I was demoralised to the point that I thought it was the end of my flying career.

Anyone signing up for a sponsored programme right now would be taking a monumental gamble, especially if it was for an MPL licence. In fact if you signed up for an MPL course with Flybe I think that would qualify as meeting the criteria for admittance to the insane asylum.

Flybe is/was a lovely company (before the 2013 redundancy nastiness) and I thoroughly enjoyed my time there but career wise it's a complete and utter dead end.

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Old 7th Mar 2015, 20:11
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Wowzers,

First off thank you all for taking the time to respond and I really do appreciate all your information/advice.

Northern Monkey.

To be clear I think you're talking about 2 different things. There is doing it primarily for the rewards and ensuring it pays the bills. I'm fairly lucky that I already own a house and am sharing a house (owned) with my gf in London. I've also got some savings together over the last 8 years of a pretty well paid job along with 8 years of what is probably one of the best company pensions in the UK. In short, i'm in a good spot financially and for me the main driver is flying and enjoying the flying. If I just want good money I'd go work in the city and continue what i'm doing now and i'd be earning atleast double what most airlines will pay me (roughly 3x Flybe). However I do have to ensure I can support myself.

I think you're missing my point here. Just to tell you exactly where i'm coming from, I think the answer is BA and i'm fairly sure i'm right BUT i'm playing devils advocate for myself. I'm a very logical person and want to ensure I evaluate all the opportunities that are open to me.

1. Agreed that the A320 rating is far more useful but that's on the assumption that I'd want to leave the Dash 8 behind. Would I? I'm not sure.

2. Yes agreed they are not doing as well as they hoped (hence the profit warning) but they are still in profit. If you look back it wasn't me that said they were moving to an all jet fleet, that was someone else. As I stated earlier i'm aware that they have cancelled a load of Embraers and upped their loan of a few more Dash 8s. Glad to hear you confirm this also.

3. Again, job security it important but it's not why i'm doing this. I have a good background/qualifications and years of experience in Project Management to fall back on. If I wanted Job Security i'd stick to what I know and get in to a job in the city. I'm not coming to the airline industry for job security, it is a bonus.

I take your point that they are nowhere near as solid a company as Flybe. The MPL is also an issue although i'd hope that CTC would find me alternate work if things went wrong but I know I can't rely on that.

Surely I'd be foolish not to consider where I'm going to be in 5yrs time. As I understand it, it's well known that you will make Capt with some of the carriers (Easy/RyanAir) in less than 5yrs.

What I'm getting here is that the risks are big. An MPL with a company that's barely profitable and a rating that's not very transferable. So if things go wrong i'll be in a spot of bother and arguably these risks are too big and I take that point... Let's however say (again in an attempt to explore all opportunities) that all goes well, Flybe continues to improve and I enjoy the Dash8 and perform well. Do you think i'd progress well within Flybe? Would I enjoy it? are there other factors i'm not considering?

Thanks again for all your help but to be clear this job HAS TO bring me more than good pay and job security otherwise I might as well stick with my current employment and earn about twice as much in a very secure company.

Luke Skytoddler,

Will I be able to pick and choose later? I don't agree with just taking any job, as I pointed out above i've also got some other good and interesting employment opportunities. I feel like I have to be a little bit picky.

Rex Banner,

Great to hear from an Ex Flybe pilot.

Interesting view on Flybe, would you not agree they are now heading in the right direction with the new CEO? What would be a good rough guide to command then at Flybe?

The Dash rating is useless, believe me - If you've been through it all I imagine you know far better than anyone else. So am I wrong in thinking they will simply take each hour on the Dash as .5 or .7 of an hour equivalent to a jet and i'll simply have to pay for a new type rating?

Anyone signing up for a sponsored programme right now would be taking a monumental gamble - Really? I thought a sponsored program was safer than an integrated ATPL? What about with EasyJet or even BA? If you could PICK a route and money wasn't an issue what would you do? Integrated ATPL? BA ATPL? Another MPL?

Flybe is/was a lovely company (before the 2013 redundancy nastiness) and I thoroughly enjoyed my time there but career wise it's a complete and utter dead end - When you say dead end, what if you enjoy flying the Dash and progress on to being a Captain? Is that not a 'happy end'?

Again, I take all your points and agree with most, if not all, of them but i'd be silly not to conduct due diligence and examine all my options. People that just say 'obviously BA' are the better option aren't really adding any weight. Any random bloke on the street could guess at that so what i'm looking for are substantial facts to support your views and I feel like i'm getting there slowly.

Thank you again for all your help soo far. Feel free to chip in and add some more.
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Old 8th Mar 2015, 00:08
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Budding

It is a very interesting angle that you are approaching this from. You say you aren't getting in to flying for the money or for job security. That being the case I can only assume you are getting in to it for the enjoyment of flying? If that is the case, forget airline flying all together, go get a private pilots licence and an aerobatic rating and rent/buy a Pitts special or something similar. And keep your secure job in the city earning good money. No brainier for me! And it'll be far more fun than airline flying!! Trust me!

However, taking your points one by one.


1. Maybe you'd be happy flying a dash 8 around for the rest of your life and doubtless there are some pilots who are very happy living in the regions of the UK doing exactly that - and good luck to them. They are probably better pilots than many jet pilots because the dash is a more demanding / less automated aircraft. But most people want career progression which means moving on to jets and as a result earning more money and getting better benefits with bigger companies. I accept that doesn't fit with your plan (although I honestly can't fathom why someone would place limits on their ambitions at such an early stage).

2. As a logical person you will no doubt know how volatile the airline industry is. Like just about every airline out there flybe has an uncertain future, but it's more uncertain than some others because of the niche market it operates in. If you don't care about getting made redundant and the risks associated with that because you can just pick up your old city job again, fill your boots. But it would be a terrible investment of your time and money in my opinion. As investments go, it's as risky as they come, because you won't be able to get another flying job easily if all you have is a dash rating. Don't get me started on paying for type ratings .... because what comes next is paying for the 500 hours you'll need to go with it (an A320 rating on its own without hours is worthless and won't get you an interview anywhere). People do it but it's very controversial. Paying to fly fare paying passengers around?! What's next? Paying to fly for a year or two?

3. Again, baffling. Never ever met a pilot before in all my years who doesn't care about job security. Someone willing to pay for a ATPL/MPL and or type rating with dubious employment prospects and high risks. An airline accountants wet dream by all accounts!

4. As I said before, getting a command is just something you cannot put a time frame on. Some people who get in to an airline at the right time wait 3 years, some wait 10. It is in a constant state of flux and changes almost daily based on the economy and the commercial flying program. You also have to pass a command course as well by the way - not to say you wouldn't but command is not something you just 'get'. People do fail. They might also require you to move to a different base for your command.

I think a job at flybe (or any other airline) would bring you enjoyment for at least a while because most new pilots love the job to start with. Even after 7 years I still enjoy the flying. What I don't enjoy are the consecutive early starts, missed social events, fatigue, constant pressure on terms and conditions etc. None of the friends I made at flying school would tell you they 'love' the job anymore. Most enjoy the flying but hate everything that goes with it.

Generally I think there are far too many people who start a flying training course throwing caution to the wind and just hoping for the best. But look. If you can honestly afford to write off £100,000 and take the chance without it really affecting your finances and walk back in to your old job if/when it goes wrong, well, what can I say?

In my opinion the lowest risk entry point to commercial aviation is the BA future pilot programme. Flybe is a high risk/low reward entry point for all the reasons that have been mentioned. Don't assume if you are made redundant that CTC or anyone else will 'find' you another job - they won't. You will have to move heaven and earth trying and might well have to make good on your rhetoric about going back to your old job in the city - so be prepared for that!

Really though, if it's all about enjoyment and not about money, go fly light planes and forget working for an airline!
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Old 8th Mar 2015, 00:23
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As I understand it, it's well known that you will make Capt with some of the carriers (Easy/RyanAir) in less than 5yrs.
I can't comment on Ryanair.

The 5-year command thing at easyJet is a thing of the past. It happened during the period of fast expansion. Many people still believe this to the case. There is a pretty long list of command ready SFOs. If you join tomorrow, based on the current planned expansion rate I'd estimate you'd be waiting at least 8 years if not more.
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Old 8th Mar 2015, 07:04
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Will I be able to pick and choose later? I don't agree with just taking any job, as I pointed out above i've also got some other good and interesting employment opportunities. I feel like I have to be a little bit picky.
Look around this forum and try to understand the reality that is faced by most of these guys ... they have completed their training and they have NO flying job. They would sell their left nut for a job at either Flybe or BA, or just any company on earth that would just give them a chance to sit in an airliner and get that experience. But nobody's hiring, so then they get desperate, and do stupid stuff like pay another 50,000 for some 737 time in a crappy third world Indonesian operator under the misguided belief that this will enhance their employment prospects at home.

There are many hundreds of wannabe pilots in this exact situation, with 200 hours, an FATPL, and nowhere to go.

I went through all the pain back in the '90s when things were a little bit easier but it still took me 9 hard years and 3000 hours of instructing and GA flying and air ambulance work, before I got my first break into a 19-seat turboprop, 3 years after that before I got my first A320 FO position.

So it just kind of makes me chuckle to see someone who has yet to gain even a PPL licence, sitting there and seriously discussing the relative merits of joining BA vs whatever other airline.

The first and last rule of being a wannabe pilot is, take the first multi turbine job you are offered, and the second rule is that the job offer in the hand is worth more than a million prospective offers or interviews or upcoming assessments.

The other thing is of course, how do you know they will even be hiring when you've finished your training? They certainly weren't through most of the '00s when I was in the right age and stage to apply.

My point is that with regard to entry level airline jobs you don't really have the option to pick and choose, if you get one job offer then you're lucky, if you get more than one at the same time then good for you, but that's really a one in a million chance of happening.

Of course if you have "other good and interesting employment opportunities" then go right ahead and fill your boots. To be honest, a lot of jobs in this industry are neither good or interesting, once you've done them for a couple years and got the shiny jet bug out of your system
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Old 8th Mar 2015, 09:25
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Just to correct the ex-Flybe guy above saying the Dash is a dead end, that is simply untrue based on current events.

Granted I joined Flybe after the recent bad times and so don't have the bad taste in my mouth most guys understandably still have, and had previous airline experience, but guys are currently getting jobs with BA, Jet2, FlyDubai etc faster than they can be replaced on the line.
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Old 8th Mar 2015, 09:48
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The big mistake here is thinking that a certain solid background will give someone the power of being "picky". Well, as you will very soon find out , that is not the case.
1) If you join the beautiful aviation world, nobody is probably going to ask you what you did in the past. They do not care. From day 1 to the MCC they only care about your flying skills and you ability to pass the 14 ATPL exams. Believe me, you do not have any advantage on this.
2) you might think you are the only one with a solid background wanting to join this world. Well, you are wrong again. I have trained with financial advisors, engineers, ex fighter pilots and lawyers. The competition is fierce, there will be people with more background, or less background.
3) I have seen people from all backgronds fail. I have seen 18 years old, I have seen bankers.

And no, command training is not just "the hours", is a very hard path. Some get to the end, some do not. Your background gives you better chances in some fields, but that's about it.

But of course, you can be picky with 0 hours. But we all know the result.

My advice, stay where you are and get a PPL. Aviation is beautiful, but at the end of the day it becomes just another job. Even if you succeed, you will have a huge debt and less money in your pocket than in your current job
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Old 8th Mar 2015, 10:53
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I think people on here are getting confused with what "building a career" actually means. You say that moving to a jet is building a career, but how much of a career move is it? What is career building? Is it position within a company or financial reward, or both? You can build a career with Flybe just as easily as you can with any other jet operator. Assume you go to Easyjet, what career can you build with them? The exact same career you can with Flybe. With BA, you start your career on a jet, you finish your career on a jet. You can move around fleets, you can change seats, you can build financial reward, but you can do this with Flybe as well, but just not as varied and not for such a financial reward. If you joined Flybe and get a Dash rating then is it a massive "career move" to jump onto a jet with another company? It's a one step process isn't it, once you've done it, then what? Space Shuttle?
Flybe aren't in the process of getting rid of their 175s anytime soon so there's always a move to a jet within Flybe for now. If you join as an FO on the Dash you can build experience and seniority, your financial reward climbs every year and quite quickly, you can change seats to a command, you can then become a LTC, a TRI, a TRE, move to management. There's still a career to be had at Flybe, albeit not a massively varied one that you'd get with BA.

End of the day it's horses for courses, if you want a career where you're not bothered what you fly and you want to be home most evenings then join Flybe (but not at MAN or BHX), if you want a career that gives you an amazing array of aircraft, different sizes, long haul yadda yadda then join BA. If you want quality of life in the long run then go to BA (you won't get that in the short term though), if you want to live in the rejoins and not commute then join Flybe. End of the day the term "career" is very subjective and is an individual taste and not one person can dictate their circumstance onto someone else, but to say there isn't a career to be had at Flybe is plain and simply wrong.

Good luck with whatever you decide.

p.s. Time to command with Flybe for a fresh faced MPL will be circa 5+ years and don't expect a base in the South
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Old 8th Mar 2015, 14:24
  #18 (permalink)  
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Flybe will not pay you more
The dash is a great first aircraft, but is not "fun" to fly
3 years to command isn't realistic, maybe 7/8 or 9/10 at the bigger more popular bases

Given the choice of BA FPP or Flybe, I would take BA FPP
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Old 8th Mar 2015, 16:52
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Flybe solidly profitable? I don't believe that is what they told the city on the back of their last trading statement. Lucky to break even this year would be far more accurate. They still have massive financial problems thanks to a disastrous fuel price hedging policy and the millstone of EMbraer orders they cannot get off the books quickly enough. There is no talk at all (except amongst over imaginative crews) about becoming an all E-jet operator. It's far too expensive to operate on regional routes and despite being a lovely aircraft, the management know that the company badly need the turboprop fleet to stand any chance of making money.

Unless you really enjoy the idea if being made redundant at the start if your career, with a mountain of debt and a type rating that will shut more doors than it opens, you might want to look elsewhere.

It's true, the company can be fun to work for, the flying is quite good, the Dash a good type to turn you into a smart operator, and in the past, time to command in potentially 3 years. But things have changed in the last 2 years, and Flybe would be a very strange choice to make if other options are available.
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Old 8th Mar 2015, 20:03
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Thank you all again for your views, I really am finding it helpful.

NothernMonkey

Budding

I take your first point, ref getting a PPL and aero rating and that's definitely my plan B. However I feel flying with a commercial airline would still be a better option than the daily office grind. That is however making me realise that pay and stability are important although I hope I can afford a LITTLE more risk with a solid backup working as a project manager.

1. Totally agree again with point 1 but just to be clear I am NOT placing limits on my ambition, however my ambition is not to just earn lots of money. My ambition is to become an excellent pilot.

"But it would be a terrible investment of your time and money in my opinion. As investments go, it's as risky as they come, because you won't be able to get another flying job easily if all you have is a dash rating" - agreed totally, I take your point.

3. The reason I am 'less concerned' (it's not that I don't care) about job security is because if things fall apart I feel very confident that i'll be able to pick up my current job roughly where I left off (maybe a little behind).

4. As I said before, getting a command is just something you cannot put a time frame on... not to say you wouldn't but command is not something you just 'get'. People do fail... They might also require you to move to a different base for your command. - Again, very helpful advice, thank you.

In my opinion the lowest risk entry point to commercial aviation is the BA future pilot programme. Flybe is a high risk/low reward entry point... Again, thank you!

That was a helpful post, i'm starting to make the connection now that I do need a little security and decent pay but I still want to stress that isn't my number 1 driver. Thank you.


average-punter - Thank you for your clarification, this is the sort of thing i'm looking for. Point taken.


Luke SkyToddler -

...So it just kind of makes me chuckle to see someone who has yet to gain even a PPL licence, sitting there and seriously discussing the relative merits of joining BA vs whatever other airline....

I think you're being a bit condescending here, you may have flying experience but that doesn't mean your opinion is the correct answer. In my opinion anyone not considering where they will be in roughly 5/10 years is an idiot. If the choice is fly for a crappy airline on crappy wages in a crappy city or don't take the job then i'll do exactly what NorthernMonkey has suggested and stick with my current job and fly PPL for fun. I'm not straight out of uni, I have life experience, I have solid work experience and financially i'm sitting fairly sound. I do not need, nor do I want, to rush in to any old job just to fly an aircraft, I think you're missing the point here.

The first and last rule of being a wannabe pilot is, take the first multi turbine job you are offered... and the first rule of being successful is to analyse and consider the merits of everything you are offered and not simply jump in to something without conducting due diligence. What I've asked for is how the two airlines compare not how picky I should/shouldn't be.

Thank you for the rest of your advice.


Vikdream,

Again you've completely missed the point here.

"The big mistake here is thinking that a certain solid background will give someone the power of being "picky". Well, as you will very soon find out , that is not the case."...

Simply you are wrong, I can be as picky as I like as i'm in no desperate need to find a job to make ends meet. As NorthernMonkey suggested earlier, if I don't like the look of the job then i'll stick to what i'm already doing and fly on a PPL. If the option is a job or no job then i'll take no job.

"you might think you are the only one with a solid background wanting to join this world. Well, you are wrong again."...
Again, you'll have to point out where I said that? I think I was pointing out that I had a solid plan B. I might be confident enough to believe I have a lot to offer (as I hope most pilots would also believe) but I wouldn't be soo arrogant to be posting that on here and suggesting i'm above the competition.

Can we get back to comparing the 2 airlines?

Thank you for your advice.

John_smith.

A solid well paying career isn't necessarily what life is about and i'm getting a bit bored of the daily grind sat in an office.

The reason this is even a debate is because there are a lot of people saying things like "I can't even believe this is a debate" without providing any substance. I'm now slowly starting to see why people would prefer BA over Flybe however there is still some obvious advantages of a career with Flybe. Care to add your thoughts?

RHS,

Thank you for your advice, specifically in terms of your view of the Dash.

Otto Throttle,

Flybe solidly profitable?.. Yeah, ok, that was a bit of an exaggeration, I take your point but I don't think they are doing half as bad as people believe they are. Understood about not being a future all E-jet operator, I thought this was the case.

I understand and thank you for your view on future job prospects (i'm trying not to state any bias either way but I do take your point).

Thank you again for your summary and your view on things.


Just to state again, i'm trying not to show a preference and I am trying to play devils advocate against any opinions to really analyse the facts. What I'm looking for are your thoughts on the airlines. Also, to be clear, I will not be jumping in to just any job with an airline. As stated earlier I would much rather remain where I am and enjoy flying with a PPL.

Thanks again to everyone that has taken the time to give me their view on things.
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