Let's stand up AGAINST P2F. Sign the petition.
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Eh? When you can't put in an application to an airline because low hours jobs are not even advertised, you kind of don't need to be told by a recruiter "We don't hire modular types!" - It's blindingly obvious.
Let's look deeper: EasyJet only hires low houred pilots through CTC. BA and BA Citiflyer only from Oxford, CTC and possibly FTE. FlyBe (mostly speaking) also from the big schools and the top 3 providers of low hours pilots into Ryanair are the standard big integrated schools too. Go into Europe, and it's the same situation across France and Germany. Spain, I'm not sure?
flight schools around the world or in Europe, integrated or modular, late starters or in diapers. Most of them worked as flight instructors for 2 or 3 years. None of them needed an OXFORD or FTE tattoo to be considered for a job. Yes, they did pay for the TR, but aftwerards, they got paid for their services as should be.
But they're not the only airlines in Europe you say? True. But for those there is competition, fierce competition especially if you have zero commercial experience or no type rating. And skill has very little to do with it. More so than skill, luck and being at the right time/place is what brings successes. You are competing with thousands just to get a phone call or invite.
I don't need to feel better. It was and remains an accepted bitter choice. I'm not unique in this department. I've come across many who feel the same. For me, it was this way or the highway. In life, we need to do what works for us, given our own personal situation. Your reality is not the only one a pilot can experience.
accepting the who makes it become a thing that, apparently, everyone else has to accept.
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P2F IS A HUGE CONCERN FOR SAFETY.
Guys,
We cannot say that companies like Ryanair and Wizzair are P2F companies!
Please... The amount and quality of their training cannot be compared with P2F airlines and I would like to remind you that RYR, Wizz and Volotea pay a SALARY.
In my opinion P2F affects SAFETY and I am not the only one to believe this.
Have you watched this TV report? How can you say that P2F not affect SAFETY? Also the director of AirFrance flight operations agree and many others Captains...
In this days in Paris, ECA (European Cockpit Association) held a conference to present the final report on a study about Atypical Forms of Employment in Aviation. This study has been financed by European Commission, thus you can see how the authority is interested in this issue...
I suggest to download the full version of this study and try to search "pay to fly", many times is mentioned and is recognized as a form of exploitation and a big safety concern.
Completely agree.
We cannot say that companies like Ryanair and Wizzair are P2F companies!
Please... The amount and quality of their training cannot be compared with P2F airlines and I would like to remind you that RYR, Wizz and Volotea pay a SALARY.
In my opinion P2F affects SAFETY and I am not the only one to believe this.
Have you watched this TV report? How can you say that P2F not affect SAFETY? Also the director of AirFrance flight operations agree and many others Captains...
In this days in Paris, ECA (European Cockpit Association) held a conference to present the final report on a study about Atypical Forms of Employment in Aviation. This study has been financed by European Commission, thus you can see how the authority is interested in this issue...
I suggest to download the full version of this study and try to search "pay to fly", many times is mentioned and is recognized as a form of exploitation and a big safety concern.
If an Airline can't afford a training programs, so perhaps is not an Airline and the CAA should not release the AOC in my opinion.
Last edited by Delta_Charlie; 13th Feb 2015 at 14:25.
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If it really is so, then even better. My own uninofmed conclussion is that safety isn't greately affected as I doubt P2F pilots go for P2F programs and sleep under a bridge and starve. Most P2Fers are helped by family, spouses, partners, and simply get by making sure they are well rested and shaved for each flight.
If a proper study concludes that in enough cases safety is affected, then that would become my grounds for objection.
An AOC has nothing to do with what you're trying to associate it with. Airlines are not there to make our dreams come true y'know.
If a proper study concludes that in enough cases safety is affected, then that would become my grounds for objection.
An AOC has nothing to do with what you're trying to associate it with. Airlines are not there to make our dreams come true y'know.
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"Director of AirFrance flight operations" he is probably the best guy you can ask support to... come on, it's not with this kind of support that you will succeed.
"How can you say that P2F does not affect SAFETY?" How can you say it does ?
This is confirmation bias.
"How can you say that P2F does not affect SAFETY?" How can you say it does ?
This is confirmation bias.
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T&C
I still think it's better to campaign for improved T&Cs for all pilots.
We all pay to fly, full stop.
On the security issue, I think this could be a red herring.
OK, name me an incident involving a P2F pilot? If there are any, how can you prove it has anything to do with paying for line training?
After all, all pilots can make mistakes.
While I don't really agree with P2F, I now (having changed my mind) understand it. Most of those who complain probably can't afford it, is my guess.
We all pay to fly, full stop.
On the security issue, I think this could be a red herring.
OK, name me an incident involving a P2F pilot? If there are any, how can you prove it has anything to do with paying for line training?
After all, all pilots can make mistakes.
While I don't really agree with P2F, I now (having changed my mind) understand it. Most of those who complain probably can't afford it, is my guess.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sLMPFJQTmZs
Colgan Air Crash in Buffalo.
It is not direct link to P2F, but indirectly it does. Since they had no opportunity to stay in proper homes close to their base, they slept in crew rest.
Same with P2F boys and girls. Or you also put that amount you need for food and home together with that what you for that program, but then still you will try to keep that Living expenses part as low as possible. Which means, no money for proper food and place to sleep, so your real rest quality is very low, which later has effect on your performance in the cockpit.
See that crash of Colgan, to see what happens when you are fatigued.
And we are talking about that nothing is linked to quality of training of P2F boys. Well search for incidents and accident in Lion Air in Indonesia. Most pilots who participated there had to log non existing trainings in their logbooks. Lot of fraud was known there. The fact that so many Junior FO's there got involved in such incidents is shocking.
So I think there is a huge safety issue linked to P2F. Yes it is in Asia and not in Europe, but it s all fact that there are programs , which nearly led to DISASTER.
Colgan Air Crash in Buffalo.
It is not direct link to P2F, but indirectly it does. Since they had no opportunity to stay in proper homes close to their base, they slept in crew rest.
Same with P2F boys and girls. Or you also put that amount you need for food and home together with that what you for that program, but then still you will try to keep that Living expenses part as low as possible. Which means, no money for proper food and place to sleep, so your real rest quality is very low, which later has effect on your performance in the cockpit.
See that crash of Colgan, to see what happens when you are fatigued.
And we are talking about that nothing is linked to quality of training of P2F boys. Well search for incidents and accident in Lion Air in Indonesia. Most pilots who participated there had to log non existing trainings in their logbooks. Lot of fraud was known there. The fact that so many Junior FO's there got involved in such incidents is shocking.
So I think there is a huge safety issue linked to P2F. Yes it is in Asia and not in Europe, but it s all fact that there are programs , which nearly led to DISASTER.
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"OK, name me an incident involving a P2F pilot?"
(From Wiki)
"On 5 July 2007, a First Officer who was not an employee but was paying MyTravel to gain flight experience on their aircraft, landed an Airbus A320 heavily at Kos airport in Greece causing substantial damage to the main landing gear. The report was critical of both the pilots training record and non-employees paying airlines to gain experience."
... ...
(From Wiki)
"On 5 July 2007, a First Officer who was not an employee but was paying MyTravel to gain flight experience on their aircraft, landed an Airbus A320 heavily at Kos airport in Greece causing substantial damage to the main landing gear. The report was critical of both the pilots training record and non-employees paying airlines to gain experience."
... ...
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Same with P2F boys and girls. Or you also put that amount you need for food and home together with that what you for that program, but then still you will try to keep that Living expenses part as low as possible. Which means, no money for proper food and place to sleep, so your real rest quality is very low, which later has effect on your performance in the cockpit.
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That's very arrogant! Even if it's true and let's imagine you earn everything you said by your own, what's the point? Tell the world you have money so you can do P2F without debt? You want a gold medal?
P2F is very risky and the main risk is for you, 100% for the customer, 0% for the seller. But actually, the only risk is to lose a huge amount of money, this is not really an issue as you have a lot of money! Very very intelligent way of thinking...
Hope you will never be in need. Humility.
P2F is very risky and the main risk is for you, 100% for the customer, 0% for the seller. But actually, the only risk is to lose a huge amount of money, this is not really an issue as you have a lot of money! Very very intelligent way of thinking...
Hope you will never be in need. Humility.
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Tut tut tut. People on this forum really ought to read with respect to what is being said on the same topic previously. Yes it is arrogant. But don't take my display of arrogance out of context. It was in direct response to someone who thinks we are all poor and make dangerous choices/decisions. We're not all in the same boat when it comes to our life situation.
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Nope, true, Not everyone is in the same boat. Myself I paid the last penny for my initial training on the last day of my training. One day before graduation ceremony. Money from my parents which are also not rich at all and my sister.
If I would do P2F , then again I have try to get that money from somewhere, and of course will take as little as possible money for food and living. Though I would NEVER participate in disgraceful programs like these.
Piloting is STILL a job, not some community service. So you need to get paid to do your job. So why should I finance extra for those living expenses. I should get salary so I dont need to extra finance that.
I am grown up btw. That is why I think like mentioned above. We are not voluntary workers which work for free. If you want to do that , then go to Africa or something and do humanitarian work, but for flying a plane with such a responsibility you need to get paid. Dont forget that the employer sells his tickets, and makes money with it. What makes him think that he should NOT pay his personnel? It is a SICK thought.
Even if I would HAVE the money, then still I would not do it.
If I would do P2F , then again I have try to get that money from somewhere, and of course will take as little as possible money for food and living. Though I would NEVER participate in disgraceful programs like these.
Piloting is STILL a job, not some community service. So you need to get paid to do your job. So why should I finance extra for those living expenses. I should get salary so I dont need to extra finance that.
I am grown up btw. That is why I think like mentioned above. We are not voluntary workers which work for free. If you want to do that , then go to Africa or something and do humanitarian work, but for flying a plane with such a responsibility you need to get paid. Dont forget that the employer sells his tickets, and makes money with it. What makes him think that he should NOT pay his personnel? It is a SICK thought.
Even if I would HAVE the money, then still I would not do it.
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Luke SkyToddler
True in part, even in Eu is full> check in the previous pages and you'll discover a lot of Airline companies still doing that, just to name few right now, Blu panorama Airline, Albastar, Small Planet Airlines, Germania...and the list continue!!
Golfdriver
, In fact if all these guys would realize what they are doing!!!
If you all (start to STOP) this process, YOU PROBABLY WILL FIND A SEAT IN THE COCKPIT SOON AND WITH BETTER DEAL!
JohanP
I wrote :
your reply:
Hi johan are we speaking about piloting an aircraft or what? do you understand what I mean?
Would you give you're million dollar aircraft with somethin like minimum 180 pax flying in big cities crowded with people to an INCOMPETENT GUY JUST BECAUSE HE PAYED 50K EUROS and ENDANGER THE SAFETY of ALL THESE and the REPUTATION of THE AIRLINE?
I don't think!
If you're a Pilot you're a PILOT, not matter in which type of aircraft are you sit in! TO fly a Bus or Boeing is "like" to fly a Cessna, no differences, to fly is one thing, to understand the logics of the Computers we have on board (speacially Airbus) how they beahve, how to use them, how to cope with the information they give to us is something else!
So PILOT INCAPACITATION: what's wrong on that?? OPC will serve even for that, you'll practice and you'll know how to recognize, deal, communicate, navigate and fly to land the Airplane safely!!
That is something realy easy to do we always used to fly alone during our PPL/CPL...and you have all the help you need from the the C/A and ATC.
So again i ask you, would you give an airplane to a guy that during his training(LT) and OPC shows bad records?
That's another story and I'm afraid, with respect, we will go OT in deep...but this is nothing to do with P2f but a Policy of the Company, or it was!
I'm not comparing, I'm not downgrading...I'm just making you know that in young kids still exist good pilots, with good skills. That is my Goal, that obvious you didn't get it at all!
It seems we are speaking in different languages!
Please go in the professional word and then come back to me.
CaptainCriticalAngle
Delta_Charlie
Agree with you for everything but sorry I repeat to You, and it is not Fair,
SAFETY has nothing to do with P2F.
I knew some of these guys, believe me, saw the in SIM during OPC and in Aircraft....they are good pilots!
Nobody speak about, but not every one willing to pay will pass!
Do you know that?
Still a lot of "sleepers" people who don't talk here but there are a lot, who don0t make it during the TR or they have some negative point in some modules in the TR check Form......
Then you have people who doesn't pass the OPC check!
Some of the guys even after 2 attempt!
Then some of the guys fly for so long time with Safety Pilot and they then be removed even before the Line check.....
Others they fail the LIne check....
So please we are giving the bad information to the people and some CUSTOMERE here reading the FORUM.
Look you guys the vast majority of P2F doesn't even happen in Europe, it happens in SE Asia and Africa.
Golfdriver
Its never going to happen though because some idiots will still do it just to get ahead in the queue for a job. There is no Pilot unity.........and there aren't that many Pilot jobs for the newly qualified ones to go to. In other words you are "two a penny" and you have made a bad career choice!
Pilots will fly for nothing, or fly for food. I don't see Train Drivers or Plumbers working for nothing!
Good luck - get out and put the experience behind you.
Pilots will fly for nothing, or fly for food. I don't see Train Drivers or Plumbers working for nothing!
Good luck - get out and put the experience behind you.
If you all (start to STOP) this process, YOU PROBABLY WILL FIND A SEAT IN THE COCKPIT SOON AND WITH BETTER DEAL!
JohanP
I wrote :
Something else I believe, for 30 or 50K I don't think anyone could let you seat in thr right seat if you not able. Remember..PILOT INCAPACITATION is always there waiting for you
How can you be certain, 100% sure, when you assess someone that he/she will have the right reaction? And even more when it's about young pilots just fresh out of the school, you're a baby, you don't even know how to walk...
Would you give you're million dollar aircraft with somethin like minimum 180 pax flying in big cities crowded with people to an INCOMPETENT GUY JUST BECAUSE HE PAYED 50K EUROS and ENDANGER THE SAFETY of ALL THESE and the REPUTATION of THE AIRLINE?
I don't think!
If you're a Pilot you're a PILOT, not matter in which type of aircraft are you sit in! TO fly a Bus or Boeing is "like" to fly a Cessna, no differences, to fly is one thing, to understand the logics of the Computers we have on board (speacially Airbus) how they beahve, how to use them, how to cope with the information they give to us is something else!
So PILOT INCAPACITATION: what's wrong on that?? OPC will serve even for that, you'll practice and you'll know how to recognize, deal, communicate, navigate and fly to land the Airplane safely!!
That is something realy easy to do we always used to fly alone during our PPL/CPL...and you have all the help you need from the the C/A and ATC.
So again i ask you, would you give an airplane to a guy that during his training(LT) and OPC shows bad records?
To me it is not the best exemple, the major event as you say was very close to happen, isn't it? 3 May-Day calls on same day, low fuel emergency. Obviously, it is not serious.
Well, the world turned upside down. If I listen to what you say, it's almost a fresh low hour pilot should be the captain and the captain the copilot because they are more trained? Do you realize what you wrote?
I know what you mean, and some very experienced pilots can still make terrible errors of course. But it is not the general situation.
Please, do not compare a 200TT pilot (mostly on SEP, 30 to 50hours on DA42 or PA34)
to an experienced Captain with 6000 hours on type. It is not possible at all
I know what you mean, and some very experienced pilots can still make terrible errors of course. But it is not the general situation.
Please, do not compare a 200TT pilot (mostly on SEP, 30 to 50hours on DA42 or PA34)
to an experienced Captain with 6000 hours on type. It is not possible at all
It seems we are speaking in different languages!
Please go in the professional word and then come back to me.
CaptainCriticalAngle
But ... would you like a list of landing errors by 'normal' pilots?
Agree with you for everything but sorry I repeat to You, and it is not Fair,
SAFETY has nothing to do with P2F.
I knew some of these guys, believe me, saw the in SIM during OPC and in Aircraft....they are good pilots!
Nobody speak about, but not every one willing to pay will pass!
Do you know that?
Still a lot of "sleepers" people who don't talk here but there are a lot, who don0t make it during the TR or they have some negative point in some modules in the TR check Form......
Then you have people who doesn't pass the OPC check!
Some of the guys even after 2 attempt!
Then some of the guys fly for so long time with Safety Pilot and they then be removed even before the Line check.....
Others they fail the LIne check....
So please we are giving the bad information to the people and some CUSTOMERE here reading the FORUM.
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Ok I will just write a last thing cause it's an eternal debate...
You need to know that in aviation, an accident is never caused by a unique event. But by a series of event, there is linkage, a chain which finally leads to the tragic event.
P2F IS PART OF THE CHAIN. Not directly as you say but it is part of it.
I am sure you know this famous pilot: Chesley Burnett "Sully" Sullenberger.
A quote from him
And please, respect me as I do when I read you. I am working in the aviation industry as a pilot.
You need to know that in aviation, an accident is never caused by a unique event. But by a series of event, there is linkage, a chain which finally leads to the tragic event.
P2F IS PART OF THE CHAIN. Not directly as you say but it is part of it.
I am sure you know this famous pilot: Chesley Burnett "Sully" Sullenberger.
A quote from him
We have some carriers that have hired some pilots with only a few hundred hours of experience. ... There’s simply no substitute for experience in terms of aviation safety.
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As a long seasoned professional pilot I am dead against P2F. I am also dead against any such low houred pilots moving directly from initial training to airlines. The varied experience required to make a well seasoned future Captain is not, and now never will be there? One day you may need it.
This is all part of the general dumbing down of everything in society the reasons which dumbfound me?
Not withstanding this I am seeing a growing kickback against P2F now so it may eventually lead somewhere if the pressure is kept up.
What I simply don't understand however is just how suspiciously quiet our pilot unions are on this matter? Their sole purpose is to safeguard pilot working conditions and yet this situation is a disaster for any workforce yet they remain mysteriously silent?
For those who are members, (I am not) why not lobby your union hard to act on this? They potentially have the power of change. Make them work for you!
This is all part of the general dumbing down of everything in society the reasons which dumbfound me?
Not withstanding this I am seeing a growing kickback against P2F now so it may eventually lead somewhere if the pressure is kept up.
What I simply don't understand however is just how suspiciously quiet our pilot unions are on this matter? Their sole purpose is to safeguard pilot working conditions and yet this situation is a disaster for any workforce yet they remain mysteriously silent?
For those who are members, (I am not) why not lobby your union hard to act on this? They potentially have the power of change. Make them work for you!
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I agree. Aviation safety is too complex to define P2F as a direct affecting factor. I'm sure key human errors are being done by P2F and non-P2F pilots. Also, a P2Fer isn't automatically a bad pilot, just someone who had money and a different set of values.
The unions thing I've been saying for a long time. I see P2F as a problem affecting pilots (aviation workers), and as such, it should be treated by the unions. It doesn't only affect wannabe pilots, but also established pilots. I somewhat agree that experience after 200h isn't enough to make a fully ready airline pilot, but that's why airlines with decent training programs should be able to bring those 200h pilots up to standards with training and line training. The problem is that wannabe pilots see no reason to be part of a union and spend money on their fees. I think this is one that the unions should tackle out of pure ethics. Wannabe pilots in a facebook group don't have the capacity to create a level of pressure to get things started. This has to start happening from top to bottom. It's established pilots who have to help the future pilots in this one.
The unions thing I've been saying for a long time. I see P2F as a problem affecting pilots (aviation workers), and as such, it should be treated by the unions. It doesn't only affect wannabe pilots, but also established pilots. I somewhat agree that experience after 200h isn't enough to make a fully ready airline pilot, but that's why airlines with decent training programs should be able to bring those 200h pilots up to standards with training and line training. The problem is that wannabe pilots see no reason to be part of a union and spend money on their fees. I think this is one that the unions should tackle out of pure ethics. Wannabe pilots in a facebook group don't have the capacity to create a level of pressure to get things started. This has to start happening from top to bottom. It's established pilots who have to help the future pilots in this one.
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Until a financial reason is presented to the airlines, they will continue with this method of generating revenue. They are not going to listen to "it's not fair".
If insurance companies were to, for example, charge higher rates to airlines with P2F pilots, then the companies would adjust their schemes accordingly, probably increasing the prices for the P2F pilots.
If insurance companies were to, for example, charge higher rates to airlines with P2F pilots, then the companies would adjust their schemes accordingly, probably increasing the prices for the P2F pilots.
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Hi JohanP,
no one here is unrespectful I point out the Pilot Incapacitation just to make an example as I felt you far away maybe wrongly, but that's what you made me think.
I'm not defending P2F, but want to understand...You say is part of the chain that leeds in tragic event....I say, it could be in some circumstances but it couldn't be!
Yes of course, I heard and saw wht Capt. Sullenberger did but please make me look where, here, I wrote that you don't need experience ?
Telling you that even young guy are good pilots and have good skills and say that young guy have experience is different, and never told that.
Of course you need experience, and experience comes from years you spent to fly.
JohanP if you look around Europe, without going to far away, you are going to see that most of the major national Airline Company use to take cadets and young guys with 200 TT and put them after the training in their fleet, this include 77,74,33,34..
no one here is unrespectful I point out the Pilot Incapacitation just to make an example as I felt you far away maybe wrongly, but that's what you made me think.
P2F IS PART OF THE CHAIN. Not directly as you say but it is part of it.
We have some carriers that have hired some pilots with only a few hundred hours of experience. ... There’s simply no substitute for experience in terms of aviation safety.
Telling you that even young guy are good pilots and have good skills and say that young guy have experience is different, and never told that.
Of course you need experience, and experience comes from years you spent to fly.
JohanP if you look around Europe, without going to far away, you are going to see that most of the major national Airline Company use to take cadets and young guys with 200 TT and put them after the training in their fleet, this include 77,74,33,34..
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Piloting is STILL a job, not some community service. So you need to get paid to do your job. So why should I finance extra for those living expenses. I should get salary so I dont need to extra finance that.
Make it illegal for airlines to discriminate against pilots who come from "non-approved" flight schools and I'll agree with you....P2F must stop. Until then, I stand by my belief that P2F exists to make it a level playing field and in addition to what you view as rich mindless goofs who end up in a flying career, many talented commercial pilots (with and without thousands of GA hours) would simply not be able to start their careers.