Too old for airlines...
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Too old for airlines...
Ok, so in another post I put some comments (which may have been a little emotional) regarding a response aimed at my age in relation to having no chance at getting in to an airline. Having spoken to some others on the ground it appears as though this is the case, so a public apology to the Cap is in order.
What a sad world we live in where 35 is deemed too old....
Anyway, this post may get gagged by the mods so I'll take
My chances here, but could someone give me an indication of potential pay in GA as a newbie trough to a more experienced pilot? I am trying to make a decision on completing training which unfortunately comes down to return on investment. Airline work would be a no brainer (after some time in GA build experience of course) but am doubtful GA will be quite so fruitful.
I appreciate that not all matters in life boil down to
Money, but I have one of those things that seems to kill
Off careers in aviation, a family (which I love incidentally)
I could use some really constructive feedback here guys and Gals, I've been around aviation and this forum for enough years to know how most think with regard to newbies and their desires on airlines. I dont mean to appear disrespectful to those of you who have spent your entire careers in GA, I don't view it as just a stepping stone to something better. If the pay was equal I would rather be doing hands on flying, but like many I have financial commitments and mouths to feed.
Thanks.
What a sad world we live in where 35 is deemed too old....
Anyway, this post may get gagged by the mods so I'll take
My chances here, but could someone give me an indication of potential pay in GA as a newbie trough to a more experienced pilot? I am trying to make a decision on completing training which unfortunately comes down to return on investment. Airline work would be a no brainer (after some time in GA build experience of course) but am doubtful GA will be quite so fruitful.
I appreciate that not all matters in life boil down to
Money, but I have one of those things that seems to kill
Off careers in aviation, a family (which I love incidentally)
I could use some really constructive feedback here guys and Gals, I've been around aviation and this forum for enough years to know how most think with regard to newbies and their desires on airlines. I dont mean to appear disrespectful to those of you who have spent your entire careers in GA, I don't view it as just a stepping stone to something better. If the pay was equal I would rather be doing hands on flying, but like many I have financial commitments and mouths to feed.
Thanks.
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The likelihood for a sensible return on your investment in GA flying is very low, I'd estimate around 5-10% likelihood of actually getting a return that pays off your investment and allows you to support your family. This is based on the number of jobs out there, and the range of payscales. I'm talking UK/EU here but I would imagine it's not that dissimilar a picture in Australia.
You need to really really really want to fly for a living, plus work bloody hard for a long time, and have a decent amount of luck to get to a sensibly paid position in GA.
You need to really really really want to fly for a living, plus work bloody hard for a long time, and have a decent amount of luck to get to a sensibly paid position in GA.
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Sorry I realised I should have included I'm now UK based. Not bothered by getting back the money I have spent, more In terms of improving my earning capacity as not currently employed In aviation. Trying to get a rough idea of potential salary
Last edited by jethrolx; 9th Aug 2014 at 15:31.
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In an ironic twist of fate, just about all of us expat airline pilots dream of the same thing ... an acceptably well paid, family friendly, nice little 9-to-5 GA job in our home country, that we could take an early retirement to. They are as rare as unicorn 
and I would suggest they are even harder to find than an airline job, because they're always recruited by word of mouth, they're never advertised.
The answer for you my friend lies in helicopters. Seriously. There's a lot less of the silly ageism and pseudo elite airline nonsense. I know a couple of career changing guys who got into it much later in life and pretty quickly started making good money, one with the police and one in the oil & gas business.
and I would suggest they are even harder to find than an airline job, because they're always recruited by word of mouth, they're never advertised.The answer for you my friend lies in helicopters. Seriously. There's a lot less of the silly ageism and pseudo elite airline nonsense. I know a couple of career changing guys who got into it much later in life and pretty quickly started making good money, one with the police and one in the oil & gas business.
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I am on the cautious side, but 35 is not a problem to be honest.
One friend of mine 37, has just been 2 years with airline, and now got chance with BA! So it is never to late!
Myself I got chance at 42, and have now more interesting job offers, so there is chances there, but this is mostly EU / Asia, all depends what you want in life!
Good luck
One friend of mine 37, has just been 2 years with airline, and now got chance with BA! So it is never to late!
Myself I got chance at 42, and have now more interesting job offers, so there is chances there, but this is mostly EU / Asia, all depends what you want in life!
Good luck
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Hello, following this thread, I just turned 36 and I´m seriously considering doing the course ATPL, hoping to make a living as a pilot, my motivation is more by vocation, but I also need the money to live, logically. my question is, where would I have to apply for a job when I finish the academy with 200 flight hours ?, what countries and work of general aviation? and if you think that would I have opportunities to work and earn a living as a pilot ?, or you think that I'm too old to start ?.
I have no trouble going to work anywhere in the world, I have no family. I just want to make a living flying, it's my passion and my vocation.
thank you very much in advance for your attention
kind regards
I have no trouble going to work anywhere in the world, I have no family. I just want to make a living flying, it's my passion and my vocation.
thank you very much in advance for your attention
kind regards
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You have to be realistic and go into things with your eyes open.
I work as an air taxi pilot flying MEP. I went into this late in life and whilst I have been lucky to get a job, it barely pays the bills. I have a small retainer and then the rest is paid by the hour.
I am in my late thirties and with over a 1000 hours now, but my chances of moving into corporate or airlines look like being very slim. The preference seems to be "cadets" that work for very little and can be moulded easily to fit the company SOP's.
GA flying experience counts for very little these days, especially if you are older. Even the traditional recruiters of GA experienced pilots like flybe are moving towards mostly cadets. And with the stupid idiots out there that actually pay airlines to go to work as well, the chances for everyone are even less.
So yes, it can be done in you thirties, but as has been posted, well paid GA jobs are few and far between, especially ones that are salaried. I know of only one regional that still take a chance on over thirties, the rest, along with the charters and major airlines have unofficial age policies unless you have experience on type commensurate with age.
Personally, I am now looking to go back to my old job in IT, and possibly fly ad hoc or para dropping at weekends instead, as financially, it is no longer viable for me to chase a multi crew dream where the odds are so small.
I know there are people who will post of the great success of joe blogs who got an airline job at 42, but these are very small minority in a sea of twenty something 200 hour integrated students.
Sorry if I sound negative, but this is the reality of the situation for a late thirties GA pilot, so by all means give it a go if you have money to burn, but just be realistic about your career prospects ;-)
I work as an air taxi pilot flying MEP. I went into this late in life and whilst I have been lucky to get a job, it barely pays the bills. I have a small retainer and then the rest is paid by the hour.
I am in my late thirties and with over a 1000 hours now, but my chances of moving into corporate or airlines look like being very slim. The preference seems to be "cadets" that work for very little and can be moulded easily to fit the company SOP's.
GA flying experience counts for very little these days, especially if you are older. Even the traditional recruiters of GA experienced pilots like flybe are moving towards mostly cadets. And with the stupid idiots out there that actually pay airlines to go to work as well, the chances for everyone are even less.
So yes, it can be done in you thirties, but as has been posted, well paid GA jobs are few and far between, especially ones that are salaried. I know of only one regional that still take a chance on over thirties, the rest, along with the charters and major airlines have unofficial age policies unless you have experience on type commensurate with age.
Personally, I am now looking to go back to my old job in IT, and possibly fly ad hoc or para dropping at weekends instead, as financially, it is no longer viable for me to chase a multi crew dream where the odds are so small.
I know there are people who will post of the great success of joe blogs who got an airline job at 42, but these are very small minority in a sea of twenty something 200 hour integrated students.
Sorry if I sound negative, but this is the reality of the situation for a late thirties GA pilot, so by all means give it a go if you have money to burn, but just be realistic about your career prospects ;-)
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I trained when I was 32 and got my first airline job aged 35........ So I believe you get out what you put in...... I had to dispatch for a couple of years with low wages but the networking was worth more.
Good luck
Good luck
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35!
I think your friend gave you some questionable advice if he said that you were too old.
Assuming you've got a Class 1 that is.
No doubt there is ageism in this industry, like many others, and it's all done below the board of course.
But I have spoken to chief pilots of major airlines and some say they take people on their merits and older people are less likely to move around as much.
Having said that, the ones I spoke to had taken the older people from CTC, CAE, FTJerez etc etc
I know someone in their late forties was recently taken on by BA at CAE on their FPP. So a risk for sure, but it can be done. Concentrate on becoming a good pilot and the rest should follow (going to one of the big schools seems to be the key though).
Best of luck with your final decision.
Assuming you've got a Class 1 that is.
No doubt there is ageism in this industry, like many others, and it's all done below the board of course.
But I have spoken to chief pilots of major airlines and some say they take people on their merits and older people are less likely to move around as much.
Having said that, the ones I spoke to had taken the older people from CTC, CAE, FTJerez etc etc
I know someone in their late forties was recently taken on by BA at CAE on their FPP. So a risk for sure, but it can be done. Concentrate on becoming a good pilot and the rest should follow (going to one of the big schools seems to be the key though).
Best of luck with your final decision.
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Australian GA used to be the ideal starting point for a commercial or even military pilot. Lots of choices, lots of opportunity and lots of people competing for the same jobs, basically a thriving industry. Now it has become over regulated, under supported and the opportunities for a newbie, someone who wants a career change or a kid with stars in his eyes is gone. The industry has died. Very very sad.
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Don't know about AUS, but in the UK I'd have thought the situation is actually starting to become easier if you have the money and maybe give CTC a call.
Just don't complain when you've got no money, working weekends, job isn't what you thought it was etc etc.
Just don't complain when you've got no money, working weekends, job isn't what you thought it was etc etc.
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My 2p worth
Ok, so to give my honest but yet very humble opinion on this one...Here is my story.
I had a very good paying job and a career which was on track for my age at the time. I was 37 had a PPL and was doing a lot of aerobatics. After asking the, "am I too old to do a commercial license or will I possibly get a job in an airline" about a million times and getting pretty much the same advice as above I decided to take the plunge and go for it! I sold property, cars and pretty much everything I owned and immersed myself in my studies and flying. Here's what I have discovered since completing my fATPL in 2008...
Finding it near impossible to find a job I went and completed an instructors rating (adding another 5 grand to an already massive mountain of debt) and after getting in the car and driving to just about every flying school within a 20 mile radius of my house I managed to get a job and to be honest it was some of the best and most rewarding flying I did. From here on in things didn't go so well. It has undoubtedly been the hardest 8 years of my life. I have had countless contracts (in business aviation) that have never been honoured (eventually getting a bizz jet job) I have now discovered an industry that will quickly take 20 something year old cadets fresh out of CTC or OAA before they even so much as give an experienced pilot a look in. Besides my wife leaving me, living in backyards and eating out of tins to survive I have come across and industry that is rife with extreme nepotism, ageism and sexism. I have even flown with Captains that make you feel inadequate because of your age! That said I now have well over 2600 hours of which 1300 hours are on jets and "hey" guess what I still can't even so much as get an interview with an airline! In fact with the aviation industry being as fickle as it is I now find myself with no job at all and as so much time has passed I can't even go back to my old career..
So, I guess the million dollar question "if I had the choice again, would I go for it?" to which I would without a moments hesitation say, "absolutely not" If you have a good job and over 35 years of age think long and hard before committing to the world of aviation.
Now, this being "pprune" and the fact that I am now probably going to get a complete onslaught of negative comments I would like to put forward a massive disclaimer!
These are my views borne completely out of my own first hand experiences. I know everyone is not me and that some of you have had a very positive outcome (all 3% of you) I just wish I had someone like me to talk to before I jumped into the most difficult thing I have ever had to endure. I do love flying and when I am doing it there is nothing quite like it. For me it was just too much of an ordeal to get anywhere and if I can help anyone make up their minds in a constructive and logical way I will be more than happy to give you the facts and let you decide for yourselves
I had a very good paying job and a career which was on track for my age at the time. I was 37 had a PPL and was doing a lot of aerobatics. After asking the, "am I too old to do a commercial license or will I possibly get a job in an airline" about a million times and getting pretty much the same advice as above I decided to take the plunge and go for it! I sold property, cars and pretty much everything I owned and immersed myself in my studies and flying. Here's what I have discovered since completing my fATPL in 2008...
Finding it near impossible to find a job I went and completed an instructors rating (adding another 5 grand to an already massive mountain of debt) and after getting in the car and driving to just about every flying school within a 20 mile radius of my house I managed to get a job and to be honest it was some of the best and most rewarding flying I did. From here on in things didn't go so well. It has undoubtedly been the hardest 8 years of my life. I have had countless contracts (in business aviation) that have never been honoured (eventually getting a bizz jet job) I have now discovered an industry that will quickly take 20 something year old cadets fresh out of CTC or OAA before they even so much as give an experienced pilot a look in. Besides my wife leaving me, living in backyards and eating out of tins to survive I have come across and industry that is rife with extreme nepotism, ageism and sexism. I have even flown with Captains that make you feel inadequate because of your age! That said I now have well over 2600 hours of which 1300 hours are on jets and "hey" guess what I still can't even so much as get an interview with an airline! In fact with the aviation industry being as fickle as it is I now find myself with no job at all and as so much time has passed I can't even go back to my old career..
So, I guess the million dollar question "if I had the choice again, would I go for it?" to which I would without a moments hesitation say, "absolutely not" If you have a good job and over 35 years of age think long and hard before committing to the world of aviation.
Now, this being "pprune" and the fact that I am now probably going to get a complete onslaught of negative comments I would like to put forward a massive disclaimer!
These are my views borne completely out of my own first hand experiences. I know everyone is not me and that some of you have had a very positive outcome (all 3% of you) I just wish I had someone like me to talk to before I jumped into the most difficult thing I have ever had to endure. I do love flying and when I am doing it there is nothing quite like it. For me it was just too much of an ordeal to get anywhere and if I can help anyone make up their minds in a constructive and logical way I will be more than happy to give you the facts and let you decide for yourselves
Last edited by SlingsbyT67M; 16th Aug 2014 at 18:30.
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Slingsby
Thank you for your honesty.
However despite what you post - this is not what the majority of aspiring pilots want to hear and will in the main be ignored.
Newbie pilots you have been warned!
However despite what you post - this is not what the majority of aspiring pilots want to hear and will in the main be ignored.
Newbie pilots you have been warned!
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@SlingsbyT67M. A very honest and Id say difficult post to write. I don't think anybody with any level of intelligence could comment badly on what is your own personal experience. If it helps guys and girls make up their minds hats off to you Sir!!
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Thank you
Guys, thanks for the kind words. Its people like you that make the word of aviation a wonderful place to be.
And yes you were right; it was a very difficult post to write as I am now probably going to have to bow out of the race and say goodbye to a dream.
That said, I really don't want to put off newbies and aspiring guys and girl off so should anybody have any questions or require some help with their decision I will be more than happy to take a pm or two. I promise I will just give the facts in a partial and unbiased way.........
And yes you were right; it was a very difficult post to write as I am now probably going to have to bow out of the race and say goodbye to a dream.
That said, I really don't want to put off newbies and aspiring guys and girl off so should anybody have any questions or require some help with their decision I will be more than happy to take a pm or two. I promise I will just give the facts in a partial and unbiased way.........
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Age
People on here making comments like ' oh there are certain carriers who will recruit right up to the age of 40 ' ! That's just so wrong !
Let me point something out folks...
Ageism in employment is illegal in this country end of !
The Airlines used to often state on forms (although probably not now) ' flying hours should be commensurate with age '
This makes me mad! Everyone should be considered on individual merit and experience in my opinion!!
Let me point something out folks...
Ageism in employment is illegal in this country end of !
The Airlines used to often state on forms (although probably not now) ' flying hours should be commensurate with age '
This makes me mad! Everyone should be considered on individual merit and experience in my opinion!!
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It would be naive to suggest that ageism doesn't exist. It clearly does. The trouble is that it's so hard to prove that you've been a victim of it that there's not much you can do in most cases. If asked why the other guy was chosen ahead of you, no employer is going to say it's because he was younger, even if that was their real motive. That said, I do think the situation is better than it has been historically, particularly in large organisations like airlines. With a set process and scoring system that includes a variety of different decision makers you're much less likely to become a victim of age discrimination.
There are probably various reasons fewer older people make it through airline cadet recruitment processes. However, I imagine the most significant factor is that far fewer of them apply in the first place. When you reach your mid to late thirties there's a good chance you've got a mortgage, a husband or wife, kids, a family dog, and a half decent job. To drop it all and undertake a new career as difficult and expensive as aviation can be tricky to say the least, which is why the ranks of ab-initio applicants are predominantly made up of guys and girls in their late teens or early twenties. Clearly some people break this mould though. I know of guys in their mid thirties to mid forties who have applied for airline programmes and made it through.
A lot of posts above carry sound advice in my opinion. Usually people following their dreams look for information that supports what they want to know/do, rather than objective points of view that assess the facts. As hard as it is to accept, sometimes career aspirations never become a reality, and you can spend your whole life chasing the dream and end up with neither the dream nor a life worth living. My advice has always been to never risk what you can't afford to lose; and that applies to relationships as well as money.
There are probably various reasons fewer older people make it through airline cadet recruitment processes. However, I imagine the most significant factor is that far fewer of them apply in the first place. When you reach your mid to late thirties there's a good chance you've got a mortgage, a husband or wife, kids, a family dog, and a half decent job. To drop it all and undertake a new career as difficult and expensive as aviation can be tricky to say the least, which is why the ranks of ab-initio applicants are predominantly made up of guys and girls in their late teens or early twenties. Clearly some people break this mould though. I know of guys in their mid thirties to mid forties who have applied for airline programmes and made it through.
A lot of posts above carry sound advice in my opinion. Usually people following their dreams look for information that supports what they want to know/do, rather than objective points of view that assess the facts. As hard as it is to accept, sometimes career aspirations never become a reality, and you can spend your whole life chasing the dream and end up with neither the dream nor a life worth living. My advice has always been to never risk what you can't afford to lose; and that applies to relationships as well as money.
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The reality is that dozens upon dozens of people sacrifice everything to "get in to the airlines" as the job is perceived to be well paid and glamorous.
Because of this and with a lot of help from the flight training schools claiming there is an impending "pilot shortage" unfortunately there is now a massive glut of inexperienced pilots chasing too few jobs.
The result is that only a small proportion of these newly qualified pilots are fortunate enough to obtain gainful employment. RYR and P2Fly schemes cannot be considered as gainful employment.........many are left by the wayside and will never achieve their "dream job". They scratch around instructing for a while before financial reality hits them.
This has all been said before but no one listens as it does not fit with the dream.
An earlier and very honest and brave post by Slingsby is nearer the mark and I would suggest that lots of guys and girls have similar stories to tell but not the guts to admit it on here!
Because of this and with a lot of help from the flight training schools claiming there is an impending "pilot shortage" unfortunately there is now a massive glut of inexperienced pilots chasing too few jobs.
The result is that only a small proportion of these newly qualified pilots are fortunate enough to obtain gainful employment. RYR and P2Fly schemes cannot be considered as gainful employment.........many are left by the wayside and will never achieve their "dream job". They scratch around instructing for a while before financial reality hits them.
This has all been said before but no one listens as it does not fit with the dream.
An earlier and very honest and brave post by Slingsby is nearer the mark and I would suggest that lots of guys and girls have similar stories to tell but not the guts to admit it on here!